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this guy equals penetration power. penetration is good when you get it at the first date with a nice woman. but as with your date "size matters"

to small a hole in the heart of a buff will close up again, where if you hit it with a hammer large enough the heart explodes.

if his example is used then a 6,5 160 grains(SD .328) is a better killer than the 577 750 grains(SD .314) if the vl. is equal.

BULLSHIT!!!!!!

peter

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Is there any one out there that is able to work out the velocity on a 22lr to match the 470NE?

As in most worlds size does matter, and dont forget that penetration doesent make a difference if the energy isnt left inside the body. Becourse if it exits, it hasnt delivered all its energy.

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Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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If a cartridge was found to have more “stopping power” than another by one index, it was ahead of the other by all indices.

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IMO, cartridges should only really be ranked in groups when using various "killing power" formulas, with great difficulty in determining differences in actual killing effect between cartridges very close to each other in velocity/bullet weight/diameter, "knockdown", momentum, kinetic or other formulas. For example, I defy a fellow to tell me the difference in killing power {with proper bullets in each} on, say, deer, between a 6.5x55 and a .280 Remington. But compare the 6.5x55 and a .416 Rigby on buffalo, and you will see differences. Where do the differences FIRST manifest themselves?

THAT is the point best left to fireside arguments.

What JPK is saying can be demonstrated in test media where one bullet may penetrate identically with another, but the one may produce significantly different radial energy transfer to the media. And this can occur between cartridges that develop the same velocity and use the same bullet weight, the difference being only the bullet shape. Thus the difficulty in using a mathematical formula only in estimating "killing power".

Comparing in test media can demonstrate this.

This is why I take with a grain of salt many assertions of killing power promoted by certain handgun aficionados. Many revolver bullets will outpenetrate high velocity rifle loads, but the effect on the test media {and game} may be dramatically different. Just because a bullet punches deep holes doesn't mean it will kill as well as another round that doesn't penetrate as deeply but may transfer the energy of its bullet to the target in the form of massive trauma.

There are circumstances, obviously, where deep penetration is the most important goal of a bullet, though to be sure.

And energy cannot be totally tossed out, depending on game to be shot. There are circumstances where energy may be a roughly better estimator of killing power, such as when light game is shot. A 500 grain RN shot at 1700 fps striking the ribs of a small deer may leave you with a long day of tracking, whereas the same critter shot in the same place with a fast .25 cal bullet may put you in venison without much looking.

I am no mathematician, but I am curious. Thus I have been fascinated to compare various cartridges in my test media, and pistol bullets in butcher sheep. Unfortunately I've never tested the big NE or elephant rounds in any media...

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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IMO, cartridges should only really be ranked in groups when using various "killing power" formulas, with great difficulty in determining differences in actual killing effect between cartridges very close to each other in velocity/bullet weight/diameter, "knockdown", momentum, kinetic or other formulas. For example, I defy a fellow to tell me the difference in killing power {with proper bullets in each} on, say, deer, between a 6.5x55 and a .280 Remington.

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And energy cannot be totally tossed out, depending on game to be shot. There are circumstances where energy may be a roughly better estimator of killing power, such as when light game is shot. A 500 grain RN shot at 1700 fps striking the ribs of a small deer may leave you with a long day of tracking, whereas the same critter shot in the same place with a fast .25 cal bullet may put you in venison without much looking.

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Again, I claimed the heavy bullet was better for bison and bear. You claim the lighter bullet is better for deer. That's not an argument, it's agreement. But, any claim that energy by itself can be used to predict killing is flawed. The 405 gr 45 caliber bullet at 1700 fps produces the same energy as a 25 caliber 117 gr bullet at 3160 fps. But you say the 25 caliber bullet is a better killer of deer, and I agree. Therefore, energy does not predict killing power.

Take care, Tom

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The problem when using a media for testing is that its way to easy to get the angle of inpact right.
It would be fun to see anyone putting some 50mm of hardboard or similar in an steep angle infront of the media to simulate the forehead of an animal. Then it would probably be easy to see what caliber that would keep penetrating into the media and what would deflect out from the media.

Nowdays with a lot of great bullets avaiable there would be less and less difference between calibers and velocities than in the old days when they wrote their books, wouldnt it?

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But it would be wery interesting to see somethink like your tests but with a hard material simulating the skull in an angle before the media. Anyone?

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I'll call my butcher and start collecting skulls.

Biggest I got is a .375 H&H Mag...

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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But it would be wery interesting to see somethink like your tests but with a hard material simulating the skull in an angle before the media. Anyone?

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I'll call my butcher and start collecting skulls.

Biggest I got is a .375 H&H Mag...

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Perhaps someome could tipp of muthbusters and the problem would be solved once for all.

But the 375 H&H would be an excellent start beeing one of the most common cartridges.

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Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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More specifically

"Stopping Power" would seem to be the EFFECTIVENESS of the bullet doing work on the animal shot---

Certain types of work would seem to do better "cones of work" than others--large diameter bullets penetrating to adequate depths(distances) vs small diameter bullets penetrating to much deeper depths(distances). An idealized optimum balance of work associated with "stopping" an animal.

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Not meaning to cause a ruckus, but read my prior post.

All this talk about energy is irrelevant unless bullet construction is somehow factored into a mathematical formula, a requirement that none of the formulas {except Taylor, but only sort-of as JPK identifies}.

That is why comparing cartridges by kinetic energy sometimes DOES lead to accurate predictions of performance on game. None of the formulas are always accurate predictors.

Personally, my own favored mathematical formula has always been Elmer Keith's formula, but I have to admit that it too fails at times.

Apart form game shooting, quantifying performance in a repeatable test media is thus my own personal preference, tho it, too fails if consensus cannot be obtained as to what represents proper test media, and obviously it fails to predict performance of un-tested loads which is what the math formulas attempt to do. In the pistol world, Evans, Sanow & Marshall arguments arise even in the face of both street shooting and ballistic media testing.

Use of any mathematical formula is at best a general, "sort-of", "kind-of", "maybe" tool for determining "stopping power", whatever "stopping power" is {need for another agreed-upon definition yet again... }

In the final analysis, field shooting is the only way to KNOW how a load will perform, and even that requires a fairly large number of shots-on-game in order to form the basis of semi-accurate predictions if an unknown {like a different species of game, radically different shot angle, etc} is injected into the discussion.

Thus the value of cold beer and campfires!!

Discuss away, I'm sure the answer is soon forthcoming!!

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Work is force times the distance a mass is displaced by the force. Energy is not part of the equation.

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Mechanical work is the amount of energy transferred by a force.

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