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mehulkamdar
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Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question
      #116024 - 01/10/08 02:08 PM

I have come across old articles in several places speaking about a German double rifle and drilling action called the "Nimrod" but presumed that these were German variations on one or another British design. I recently found the Guenther Retz website http://www.buechsenmacher-retz.eu/index.php where he talks about reintroducing this action for the first time after it ceased production in the 1930s. I wonder if anyone knows what this was and would please explain its features here.

Thanks in advance and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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450_366
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #116043 - 01/10/08 07:33 PM

Hi!

Anyone correct me if im wrong but i think the nimrod was a maker that started building one of the sidelocks with a second hammer instead of using a blitz or boxlock style for the third barrel.

They had also a sidelock of their own "special stile" and a action that beside the ordinary locks and greener crossbolt hat a protrution under the barrel at the lump that went into the action.

There are some older drillings like the collath, nimrod (Theme & speigelmilch) that also are chambered for a 9,3mm-82r nimrod cartridge.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Kalunga
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #116068 - 01/10/08 11:40 PM

I have made some research and it showed that the name "Nimrod" is not of a gunsmith but the name of a mystical king described in the bible, he was famous for being a great hunter. The Nimrod locks have been developed by Thieme & Schlegelmilch, an old company from Suhl, the German gunsmith Mekka.
The Nimrod locks are basically improved sidelocks but my English is not good enough to give a precise technical description of the construction. In any case the locks are much safer than the Holland & Holland construction with considerable lower trigger pulls.
I read about the locks in the book "Double Rifles" from Norbert Klups, where You can see a photograph of a Nimrod lock made by the German gunsmith Ziegenhahn (www.ziegenhahn.com), who makes best quality hunting weapons for premium prices.

Kalunga

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88MauSporter
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: Kalunga]
      #116110 - 02/10/08 12:41 PM

Guys,
I actually have a Thieme & Schlegelmilch, Nimrod 12 Ga SxS. There are a couple of variations. Mine is the one with the Sidelocks. The difference in the Sidelock for the Thieme & Schlegelmilch, is that the hammer pins and action pieces fit into holes in the sideplates, but also are fitted into the action frame it self. This gives a solid two point support. The springs for the hammer strikers are actually mounted into the action body. The cocking rods / arms are much the same as a traditional sidelock. There is also a standard boxlock action Thieme & Schlegelmilch, Nimrod. The big inovation is the action frame. The matiing of the barrels and the frame are not with a flat water table to a flat frame. The flat of the frame on a traditional gun is actually stepped down in a wide lowere knotch in the frame just in from of the standing Breech. This corresponds to a fitting plate of steel on the barrel lumps. I suspect that all of this notch with fitting steel prevents the strain of pressure on the action hing pin and the green cross bolt.
The NIMROD part is a trade name for hunting arms from Thieme & Schlegelmilch as a maker.
I have seen drillings, double rifles and the SXS shotguns in both the side lock and the boxlock. Mine is high grade wood, light engraving. Very light frame and barrels. It weights in at about 6 pounds. I love it for bird hunting and shoot it alot. It was a 2 1/2" chamber gun, but I had the forcing cones lengthened and shoot lighter loads in it. Great gun. Interesting and different.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #116171 - 03/10/08 08:27 AM

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for all your responses.

88MauSporter,

As official pesterer for gun and hunting pictures, I would like to invite you to please post pictures of your Theme und Schlegelmilch rifle here. I have enjoyed the pictures that you have posted here in the past and I am only one of hundreds of members to do this.

Please do show your treasure off when you find time.

Thanks and good hunting especially with your son!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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4seventy
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #116178 - 03/10/08 09:44 AM

Mehul,
The Nimrod (boxlock) action is quite different from the usual A&D design on which many DR's are built.
One big difference is that the mainsprings are connected to the tumblers using a connecting rod which gives a compound leverage to the system.
This system provides MAXIMUM spring tension and energy at the point where the striker hits the primer, but also produces MINIMUM spring tension when the tumbler is in the fully cocked position. This creates a low loading on the trigger sears, which allows a very light yet safe trigger pull weight.
The trigger sears are also positioned much further from the tumblers pivot point than on most other boxlock designs, and this also adds to a lighter trigger pull while still retaining a safe sear engagement.

The Nimrod is truely an innovative and fascinating design!

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4seventy
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #116182 - 03/10/08 10:05 AM

Quote:

Guys,
I actually have a Thieme & Schlegelmilch, Nimrod 12 Ga SxS. There are a couple of variations. Mine is the one with the Sidelocks. The difference in the Sidelock for the Thieme & Schlegelmilch, is that the hammer pins and action pieces fit into holes in the sideplates, but also are fitted into the action frame it self. This gives a solid two point support. The springs for the hammer strikers are actually mounted into the action body. The cocking rods / arms are much the same as a traditional sidelock. There is also a standard boxlock action Thieme & Schlegelmilch, Nimrod. The big inovation is the action frame. The matiing of the barrels and the frame are not with a flat water table to a flat frame. The flat of the frame on a traditional gun is actually stepped down in a wide lowere knotch in the frame just in from of the standing Breech. This corresponds to a fitting plate of steel on the barrel lumps. I suspect that all of this notch with fitting steel prevents the strain of pressure on the action hing pin and the green cross bolt.
The NIMROD part is a trade name for hunting arms from Thieme & Schlegelmilch as a maker.
I have seen drillings, double rifles and the SXS shotguns in both the side lock and the boxlock. Mine is high grade wood, light engraving. Very light frame and barrels. It weights in at about 6 pounds. I love it for bird hunting and shoot it alot. It was a 2 1/2" chamber gun, but I had the forcing cones lengthened and shoot lighter loads in it. Great gun. Interesting and different.




88Mau,
That's very interesting, thanks for that information.
I've never seen or read anything on the sidelock Nimrod, only the boxlock, but from your description they do sound like a very good design.

Would really love to see some photos of your gun if you ever find time and particularly the lock system if you ever have them off for sevicing or similar.
thanks again.

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88MauSporter
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: 4seventy]
      #116228 - 04/10/08 08:04 AM

Mehul /4Seventy;
Thanks the posts and quetions. I just bought a new digital camera today. I will use it to photo the gun and provide the posts. I appreciate that others appreciate some of my photos of my guns and rifles (and a few handguns). I lost my old digital camera a week ago duck hunting. I didn't use the Nimrod. I used my heavier I. Hollis SxS and Heavi-shot. I didn't know the place I was hunting with a friend and we ended up AXX deep in water. I had a bucket stool and flipped it over in the water. I lost half my shells and the camera!!! My wife was SOOOO happy. Expensive trip for one Teal!

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #116283 - 05/10/08 09:58 AM

Here are some pictures of a lightweight,(2 1/2 inch), 16 ga. Nimrod shotgun by Thieme & Schlegelmilch that I own and use for Turkeys. It weighs 5 pounds 10 oz. unloaded, and has the stepped water table that is a feature of the Nimrod which is supposed to take recoil pressures off the hingepin and the Greener crossbolt. I think it does do that to some extent, but I am going to show you guys why it is one of my favorites, both in design, and to use and carry for hunting.
Nimrod is the model name and refers to the "stepped" type of action table that the Germans call a Verschlosh action, or something along that line. Nimrod, by the way, was a great bowhunter in ancient times that is mentioned in the Bible.
The first picture shows the gun assembled, the next ones show it taken down step by step. This is accomplished with just a screwdriver to remove the lockplate cross bolt. The piece I am pointing at with the pencil is a mainspring clamp which is inletted into the recess under the lockplate. The lockplate screw screws into a threaded hole in the hammers for cocking it past the normal full cocked position so that the mainspring clamp can be installed onto the mainspring. After getting it in place, the bolt can then be used to relieve the pressure on the sear, while the trigger is pulled and the hammer is gently let down with hand pressure on the screw and all the spring tension is held by the mainspring clamp.
Next the mainspring can be removed and then the hammer can be pulled out. Finally the sear is removed from its recess. The whole thing is done with just finger pressure and is reversed to put it all back together. Because of the shape and design of the sears, this gun has very nice trigger pulls. Also, we are looking at all the internal mechanisms except for the spring loaded cocking indicators that drop down from the top and interact with the hammers as they are cocked and fired.
The whole setup is lightweight,strong and simple, and because the parts are partly held and supported by the action, it is easy to access and clean it out in the field with just one small screwdriver. I wish that some company would build a lightweight double on this principal today because it is light and efficient with a minimum of parts and would surely sell very well. I hope these pictures will tell the story better than I have. I hope you enjoy them.











Edited by Birdhunter50 (05/10/08 10:22 AM)

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450_366
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #116294 - 05/10/08 06:55 PM

Lovely pictures, thanks for sharing. Its nice to see people that arent afraid to gutt their guns.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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4seventy
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #116299 - 05/10/08 09:06 PM

Birdhunter50,
WOW!!!
Thanks for those awesome photos!
What a magic lock system.
Your pictures clearly show the connecting arm between mainspring and tumbler that I mentioned in my earlier post, as well as showing the sear engaging the tumbler very high up and a long way from the tumblers axis or pivot point.

I love the way it is so easily taken apart!

Thanks very much for taking the time to show us how it works.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #116320 - 06/10/08 01:36 AM

88MauSporter,

Sorry about the loss of your camera. No rush at all, but do show your beauty off when you find time.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #116321 - 06/10/08 01:41 AM

Birdhunter50,

Congratulations, first, and then thanks for the pictures. I have to follow an order of priority here especially becaue you have a magnificent gun and because you have been nice in sharing pictures of her over here.

My guess is that since the Retz people are offering double rifles and drillings on the Nimrod action these days, it may not be long before they also bring out a featherweight shotgun to this design. It is lovely to see beautiful old designs being revived in this new golden age of gunmaking!

Thank you very much, again, for posting pictures of your treasure and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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88MauSporter
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #116324 - 06/10/08 02:08 AM

Birdhunter50,
Great job with showing and explaining the action and the features. You have a very nice gun. It is pretty much the twin of mine, except the gauge. Mine is 12 ga. I will show later in photos. I must say that I learned a lot about the action from you. I could never figure out what the heck the little U shaped items were! I thought maybe they put tension on the plate for suppoor tof the side plate. Ingenious!!
I could never achieve taking out the springs myself. I had in cleaned out by a gunsmith (specialty SxS).

Very neat. I do love mine as well and it is a delight in the field.
More later.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #116336 - 06/10/08 05:29 AM

I guess I should tell you guys the rest of the story. I was working on this gun at my kitchen table and had it dis-assembled and spread out all over the work area. I had just started a new relationship with my new girlfriend after a nasty divorce. She was watching patiently over my shoulder and was asking some very pertinent questions from time to time. I told her that I couldn't figure out why the maker of this gun had inletted a seperate piece into the wood under the lockplate. I had at first thought maybe it was supposed to be a support piece for the lockplate of some kind, but that didn't really make much sense. I had never had it out before and didn't know it was slotted. She got to messing around with it and managed to get ahold of it with her long fingernails and extracted it from the stock, that's when we found it was a spring clamp. She also noted that there were threads cut inside the holes in the hammers, that's when the light finally came on in my head and I tried the lockbolt in one of them and found out it was a fit.
I have used spring clamps for years on muzzleloading mainsprings so it wasn't much of a stretch to figure out how this one worked. All very compact and convenient, and it could be worked on out in the field if necessary, with just a screwdriver.
You may have noticed that this is an old gun, on the barrels there is a loading inscription on both side that states "2G Sch.P. 27g Bl." I think this refers to 2grams of Schultz semi-smokeless powder OR 27 Grains of Black powder, in other words, this was made during the period when they were in the process of changing over from black to semi-smokeless powders and they didn't want anyone to get confused about the proper loading of this gun!
I decided after this experience that Marie was a keeper and we later got married. She has helped me many times to figure things out or to offer and extra hand when needed during the disassembly or re-assembly of guns. She was raised in Holland and knows German as well as a couple of other languages and that has come in handy more than once. We have now been together over 11 years and she still surprises me once in awhile. She just told me that "Verschluss" means "lock" in German, so "Nimrod Verschluss" means "Nimrod Lock". She also keeps track of my appointments, and my meds, and also takes these pictures for me, (I am not a good photographer). I think I'll keep her awhile,yet. Bob H.

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4seventy
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #116382 - 06/10/08 08:22 PM

Quote:

She also keeps track of my appointments, and my meds, and also takes these pictures for me,



Bob,
A big thanks to your wife then for those beaut photos.
She has done a great job there, showing plenty of detail in every picture.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: 4seventy]
      #116385 - 06/10/08 11:09 PM

Bob,

Thanks for giving us a tour of this interesting action. Your photos are great!

Quote:

You may have noticed that this is an old gun, on the barrels there is a loading inscription
on both side that states "2G Sch.P. 27g Bl." I think this refers to 2grams of Schultz semi-smokeless
powder OR 27 Grains of Black powder



You are right that the first mark indicates 2 grams of the semi-smokless Schultz powder.

However, the second mark, "27g Bl" is for the shot charge. It is not a reference to an
alternate black powder load (in grams, not grains). You might note that 27 grains of black powder
would only be about 1 dram, far too little for a charge. On the other hand, 27 grams
(the unit used) of black powder would be about 15.5 drams of black powder, a serious overload.
The mark indicates a charge of 27 grams of lead shot, an entirely appropriate shot load for a 16 bore.

I would like to ask you to duplicate your posts on the 'Classic' Firearms Photos & Archive forum
if it wouldn't be too much trouble. This is a perfect display to appear in that
permanent archive forum.

Thanks,
Curl

Edited by CptCurl (06/10/08 11:28 PM)

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Marrakai
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: CptCurl]
      #116424 - 07/10/08 01:46 PM

Marvellous photo essay, BH. Really enjoyed this thread.

That's a 12,000-word essay BTW: a picture is certainly worth a thousand words in the case of internal lock mechanisms like this!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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tinker
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: Marrakai]
      #116432 - 07/10/08 06:38 PM

Neat stuff for sure.

My dad grew up in a special place of privilege where his early childhood education in etiquette and the history and nature of fine guns combined with whatever charm he was able to bring to the conversation got him welcome access to the stock of Fine Guns at Abercrombie and Fitch and SF Gun Exchange from when he was a youngster on.
He had encyclopedic knowledge and deep appreciation for the gunmaker's art.

Of everything he'd known and seen and handled, the icing on his cake would have been a 2" 12b best Brit boxlock.

The world of boxlock has such vast possibility for potential and creativity. The gun shown above is a great example. An integral feature of it's architecture is the ability for it to take care of itself!

If I were thinking of doing a soup-to-nuts scratchbuilt field gun, I don't think I'd be able to keep myself from pirating the design notions of this tidy lightweight Nimrod.
What a simple and elegant design, what a cool feature of a 'take-along' spring vise!



My thanks in the hat to BH50 for sharing his nice lightweight 16b field gun...




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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dale
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: tinker]
      #116436 - 07/10/08 09:40 PM

Gentlemen,

Thanks again for another great thread and Bob the pictures are fantastic. That is trully one unique action and such an eye pleaser. Forgive me but it would make you guys cry to know what I'd do if I ever get my hands on one of those. :^) The hunt is on!

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: dale]
      #116444 - 07/10/08 10:53 PM

Interesting:

Google has just revealed the availability of current manufactured guns and rifles on this action:

http://www.buechsenmacher-retz.eu/alte_technik_neu.php

http://www.buechsenmacher-retz.eu/download/nimrod_db.pdf

Cheers!
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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tinker
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: dale]
      #116447 - 07/10/08 11:45 PM

Dale-


Krag?

Quote:

...what I'd do if I ever get my hands on one of those...









--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: tinker]
      #116474 - 08/10/08 06:24 AM

Thanks for all the nice comments about my gun and the photographic talents of my wife. We have transferred these pictures and the discription to the Classic Firearms section as per Capt.Curl's request. It was fun sharing this one with all of you. Bob and Marie

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #116487 - 08/10/08 07:59 AM

Thanks Bob and Marie for your interesting post and for taking the time to include it in the permanent photo archive.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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88MauSporter
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Re: Gunther Retz and the Nmrod Action - Question [Re: CptCurl]
      #116495 - 08/10/08 02:39 PM

I really can,t compete with Birdhunter50 for photos, but here is my Nimrod shotgun by Thieme & Schlegelmilch in 12 ga. I do hunt and shoot sporting clays with this gun. It was my first Euro / Anglo SxS>


















--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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