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dearmer
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Reged: 14/10/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Cape Cod, MA
Why not shoelump?
      #115530 - 26/09/08 12:08 AM

I have no desire to ever build a rifle myself but I do occasionally look through this forum. One thing that I notice is everybody builds there conversions using the monoblock system. I can understand how this may be easier if you don't care about the original shotgun barrels but what if you want to save them? I was just reading a thread where the builder wanted to save the original shot barrels but didn't have the knowledge or desire to build a new monoblock. Wouldn't a shoelump set of barrels be much easier to make? I know that no one besides Greener is using this system these days but it was used on heavy doubles back in the day with great success.

Just curious and thought maybe this could help someone else out.


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peter
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: dearmer]
      #115545 - 26/09/08 04:22 AM

its not that easy to make or fit a shoelump.

peter


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450_366
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: peter]
      #115546 - 26/09/08 04:33 AM

Quote:

its not that easy to make or fit a shoelump.

peter




Accactly, and then you got the problem of solder it on without ruin the temper on the lump or the barrel.

A monoblock would be much easyer to make if one doesent have fixtures built to machine the shoe lump.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Bramble
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: 450_366]
      #115555 - 26/09/08 07:25 AM

Shoelumps must be brazed together. This is not a job for the amateur builder due to temper issues and scaleing of the bore.

Regards


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Marrakai
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: Bramble]
      #115564 - 26/09/08 01:05 PM

A marvellous photo-post from new-guy a while back showed Heym's shoe-lump construction. A .500 and a .375 were illustrated IIRC. I got the impression this was their routine MO.

Anyone got the link?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Marrakai
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: Marrakai]
      #115565 - 26/09/08 01:14 PM

Quote:

Anyone got the link?



OK, found it myself.

Here it is.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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dearmer
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: Marrakai]
      #115572 - 26/09/08 06:25 PM

I guess that's why I'm not a machinist. Seems simple on paper.

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Bramble
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: dearmer]
      #115577 - 26/09/08 08:17 PM

Dearmer,

I'm like that with Angelina Jolie.

She's a woman I'm a man I can't see a problem......

:-)

Regards


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450_366
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: Bramble]
      #115588 - 26/09/08 11:20 PM

Quote:

Shoelumps must be brazed together. This is not a job for the amateur builder due to temper issues and scaleing of the bore.

Regards




Sorry, in sweden brazing and soldering has the same name or its sometimes called "hard solder" or "silver solder".

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Bramble
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: 450_366]
      #115607 - 27/09/08 02:31 AM

450 366.

This causes more confusion than any other process involving guns.

Silver soldering is a correct term for high temp use of hard solders.

I do not use it in forums however as people misinterprit it for the same as using LOW TEMP silver and tin solders.

If one uses the term "brazing" then people understand better.

When using soft solders then a more correct term is sweating a joint.

Regards


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tinker
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: Bramble]
      #115612 - 27/09/08 03:47 AM

I'm with Bramble on the use of vernacular.

Although...
Silver Brazing = Hard Soldering = Silver Soldering = ~1150F-1750F

the term 'Silver Soldering' is often associated with low temperature (using an iron or a low temp flame...) plumbing or electronics solders, in that there are low-temp (some silver content) solders available, and their use is also considered 'Silver Soldering'.

I try to keep the 'brazing' in the language when discussing high-temperature silver work to keep passers-by from thinking the low-tem/low-strength process is what I'm talking about.





--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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450_366
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: Bramble]
      #115622 - 27/09/08 05:44 AM

Quote:

450 366.

This causes more confusion than any other process involving guns.

Silver soldering is a correct term for high temp use of hard solders.

I do not use it in forums however as people misinterprit it for the same as using LOW TEMP silver and tin solders.

If one uses the term "brazing" then people understand better.

When using soft solders then a more correct term is sweating a joint.

Regards




I see your point, but to defend myself i think my tecnical english still is a bit better then your swedish. And in sweden no one would mix them up, thats why we dont need to separate it by the use of different words.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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alexbeer
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Reged: 10/04/08
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: 450_366]
      #115684 - 27/09/08 10:40 PM

Hello all
I saw this shoe-lump thread and thought I might add a couple of my photos and some musings.

Two or three months ago I was all set to build a 577NE 3" double for a client (using the shoe-lump system) but unfortunatly that project has had to go on hold for an un-known period of time. How-ever, I decided to build a 470 double instead, just to take care of any spare time I "might" have had.

So, after I remembered how to post photos, here's some progress shots of a pair of shoe-lump barrels.

The initial convergence of the barrels was set and a shoe-lump blank and top extension blank were then formed and fitted (smoke and scrape, smoke and scrape etc) Peter said earlier "It's not that easy to make or fit a shoelump" Amen to that, it takes quite some time, and a lot of care and patience to fit it "properly".


Here are the "bits"



Here's the shoe-lump before it was fitted to the barrels



After fitting, the fit at the breech end



The fit at the front of the lump



And the fit of the top extension blank


Next will come chambering the barrels till the rim groove cut is just starting (chambers will be cut to full depth and the headspaced set when the barrels are final fitted to the action body). Then I'll make sure all the joints are totally clean, then flux it, wire all the pieces in their respective places and "braze" it all together in a temperature controlled furnace.

I will try to keep you all posted as this progresses, although it's not always easy to get the time to play on the computer , so please forgive me if up-dates are slow in comming.

Take care

Alex

BTW, this is the action body blank, sawed and milled out of a block of Bohler EN36A 2-1/2" square and 10" long,



alexbeer.com

--------------------

Details matter!


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RLI
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Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 534
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: alexbeer]
      #115687 - 27/09/08 11:01 PM

Alex,
Keep those progress reports and pictures coming, very interested!

cheers
Steve

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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450_366
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: alexbeer]
      #115704 - 28/09/08 03:47 AM

Hi!

Looks very nice indeed, i saw that you dont make the little "nose" at the breech of the barrels that the upper part goes over. Is there no need for it wit todays material? Im just courius as im interested to make a shoe lump myself one day and it cuts some time from it?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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alexbeer
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: 450_366]
      #115719 - 28/09/08 09:16 AM

Thanks Andreas

I'm guessing by "the little nose at the breech of the barrels" you mean a concealed extension. Nothing wrong with a concealed extension at all, providing its fit to the action and the fit of its bolting is first class.

Major Sir Gerald Burrard Bt D.S.O wrote something like this in one of his excellent books, " In certain types of actions a top extension is advisable, and when this is the case the best extension is either a plain doll's head or else a well-fitting cross-bolt" (Major Burrard's emphasis on well-fitting)

I just prefer the Greener style cross-bolt. IMHO it allows a some-what slimmer lighter rifle without sacrificing strength. Compared to an action without any sort of top extension, the action with a well designed and well fitting top extension doesn't need as much bulk (ie width and or depth) to be just as strong.

The doll's head is excellent, but I find it more time consuming to fit.

But with any of these top extensions, the concealed, the doll's head or the cross-bolt, the most important thing is they all must be correctly fitted. Provided this is the case, each will well do the job it is intended to do. If they are poorly fitted they could not be concidered benificial in regards to the action's strength at all. In fact IMHO, if they are poorly fitted they are just extra weight that might as well have gone into the width or depth of the action in the first place.

Sorry, that got a little long winded.

Regards

Alex

alexbeer.com

--------------------

Details matter!


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RLI
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: alexbeer]
      #115728 - 28/09/08 10:31 AM

Alex,
Whats your view on the Purdey style hidden third bite or other hidden types?

cheers
Steve

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: RLI]
      #115746 - 28/09/08 04:48 PM

Looks good, Alex,
making your own action puts you one up on some of the brave new (and born again) double rifle makers out there at the moment, for authenticity at least. Good luck with this enterprise.

- Paul


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alexbeer
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: RLI]
      #115753 - 28/09/08 06:46 PM

Hello Steve,

This seems to be wandering away a bit from the original shoe-lump thread, but thats proberbly my fault, sorry about that. I'll try to make it a quick answer.

IMO the hidden or concealed third bite as done by Purdey, Holland etc. is an excellent system. The fit of this system as done by these makers is always of the highest quality, as it needs to be. It works exactly as it it intended, which is to stop the tendency of the bar from bending through the angle of the standing breech, not to stop the barrels from opening on the arc of the hinge pin as is commonly thought.

The dolls head and the Greener cross bolt, when correctly fitted, do exactly the same thing. Basically it's three different ways of achieving the same result. Some are neater than others and some people prefer the one that don't interfere with loading.

My opinions friends, hope I haven't offended anyone.

Regards

Alex

alexbeer.com

--------------------

Details matter!


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alexbeer
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: Paul]
      #115754 - 28/09/08 06:47 PM

Thanks Paul
Alex

--------------------

Details matter!


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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: alexbeer]
      #115761 - 28/09/08 08:37 PM

Alex,
That looks like very neat work indeed!
Very impressive, thanks for showing us.
Please keep us informed on the build of this rifle if you can find the time, as there will be plenty of members interested in seeing your work in progress.
Thanks.


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450_366
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: alexbeer]
      #115807 - 29/09/08 05:06 AM

Quote:

Thanks Andreas

I'm guessing by "the little nose at the breech of the barrels" you mean a concealed extension. Nothing wrong with a concealed extension at all, providing its fit to the action and the fit of its bolting is first class.

Major Sir Gerald Burrard Bt D.S.O wrote something like this in one of his excellent books, " In certain types of actions a top extension is advisable, and when this is the case the best extension is either a plain doll's head or else a well-fitting cross-bolt" (Major Burrard's emphasis on well-fitting)

I just prefer the Greener style cross-bolt. IMHO it allows a some-what slimmer lighter rifle without sacrificing strength. Compared to an action without any sort of top extension, the action with a well designed and well fitting top extension doesn't need as much bulk (ie width and or depth) to be just as strong.

The doll's head is excellent, but I find it more time consuming to fit.

But with any of these top extensions, the concealed, the doll's head or the cross-bolt, the most important thing is they all must be correctly fitted. Provided this is the case, each will well do the job it is intended to do. If they are poorly fitted they could not be concidered benificial in regards to the action's strength at all. In fact IMHO, if they are poorly fitted they are just extra weight that might as well have gone into the width or depth of the action in the first place.

Sorry, that got a little long winded.

Regards

Alex

<a href="www.alexbeer.com" target="_blank">alexbeer.com</a>




Sorry my question was a little hard to understans, so i did a scetch and before enyone comment it i know it sucks.

The part i was refering to is a protrution of the barrel thats is left. The upper part with the crossbolt has a knotch cut into it that it grabbs over to releave the "solder" of some stress.


A bit small but i hope this amazing draving make everything crystal clear.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by 450_366 (29/09/08 10:36 PM)


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peter
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: 450_366]
      #115816 - 29/09/08 06:14 AM

andreas

it is in pic 1 and 5, the square thing thats the one.

peter


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450_366
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: peter]
      #115818 - 29/09/08 06:53 AM

Haha

I edited the picture so its a little bigger, now the "nose" is more visible i hope.

Edited by 450_366 (29/09/08 10:39 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Why not shoelump? [Re: 450_366]
      #115851 - 29/09/08 09:30 PM

Alex,

Very nice work indeed. Please document with many photos and keep us fascinated.

I envy your skill and knowledge.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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