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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: atkinson6]
      #8937 - 13/02/04 11:53 AM

I first heard about this rifling on the outside of the barrel stuff some time before it appeared in the books mentioned above.
I personally have never seen this but a man told me that he had seen it and this bloke has an immense amount of experience with a hell of a lot of doubles.
I'll go right out on a limb here and say that in my opinion this man would have shot more big Aussie game with doubles than anyone else on the planet. (mainly buffalo and big boars and scrub bulls)
He knows what he is talking about and had nothing to gain by making the story up.
I do believe that it could occurr, but IMO it would take more than just one or two shots.

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nopride2
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Reged: 03/01/04
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #8951 - 13/02/04 02:17 PM

Rifling on the outside of the barrel, I gotta see it to believe it.

Dave

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4seventy
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: nopride2]
      #8962 - 13/02/04 03:13 PM

What was describded to me was NOT that the actual total amount of rifling shifts to the outside of the barrel, but more like that a visible pattern appeared on the barrel surface which followed the shape and position of the internal rifling.
The suggestion was that the monolithic and some other solid bullet types were creating a swaging effect where over time and many firings with monolithic type solids, a small shifting of the barrel metal takes place.
The barrel does not end up with all the rifling on the outside and a smooth bore.
The barrel still looks the same internally but shows a spiral pattern on its outside surface which matches the internal rifling.

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #8986 - 14/02/04 03:33 AM

4seventy,
You would be wise to insist on "seeing" this phenominum, I have been insisting for years and so far all I have gotten is BS and excuses....no one has produced one yet..maybe someday I will see one and then perhaps we can get to the bottom of this thing....but I will never believe soft copper can move steel, that is an impossibility according to some of the great metalurgic minds I have gleened...

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4seventy
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: atkinson6]
      #9002 - 14/02/04 10:12 AM

In reply to:

4seventy,
You would be wise to insist on "seeing" this phenominum



Ray,
I am a bit of a "Doubting Thomas" myself when it comes to matters like this and I guess that's why I chose the wording, "I do believe it COULD occurr".


In reply to:

but I will never believe soft copper can move steel, that is an impossibility according to some of the great metalurgic minds I have gleened...




Now I'm not a metalurgist and nor am I usually a gambling man but I'm tempted to ask if there is any money riding on that?

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nopride2
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #9011 - 14/02/04 12:19 PM

On a lighter note, let just shoot a hollow mono bullet outside the barrels, and push that rifling back in where it belongs. Figure eight in a double of course.

Dave

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: nopride2]
      #9144 - 16/02/04 08:43 AM

4seventy,
Yes, I would put some money on it that no-one can prove such a thing has happened to a nitro proofed rifle, say a couple of hundred bucks....It would be worth it to me to put this question to rest after chasing it for 20 years...

The more I have talked to the real experts in this field, the more I am convienced that some have seen some type of stiations in barrels, but have simply misinterpeted the causation...It was sworn by many that such a gun was at SCI in 1998, but that is not so, only a rumor being lied about to substantiate a claim...

When I talked to Holland and Holland, Rigby, and Westley Richards, there reaction to the question went from a suttle grin to outright laughter...Albiet all agreed that manolithic bullets may or may not, in fact, undo the solder and split the barrels apart and if so then they would do that long before any rifleing poked out the top....

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: atkinson6]
      #9145 - 16/02/04 08:55 AM

Now Ray, you oughta know better than to say something like that. It will resurface in another coupla years as with any topic concerning guns, caliber, etc. Just look at how many times; is the 375 any good, is the 458 good enough, etc. popped up. Let's not forget the 45-70 thing also.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: atkinson6]
      #114576 - 16/09/08 03:21 PM

BTTT

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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470evans
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Reged: 30/03/05
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Loc: Texas, USA
Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #114661 - 17/09/08 09:12 PM

Quote:

What was describded to me was NOT that the actual total amount of rifling shifts to the outside of the barrel, but more like that a visible pattern appeared on the barrel surface which followed the shape and position of the internal rifling.
The suggestion was that the monolithic and some other solid bullet types were creating a swaging effect where over time and many firings with monolithic type solids, a small shifting of the barrel metal takes place.
The barrel does not end up with all the rifling on the outside and a smooth bore.
The barrel still looks the same internally but shows a spiral pattern on its outside surface which matches the internal rifling.




That's a very good description. When I got my first double a few years back I read about this condition and didn't really believe it could happen. After all, copper or brass is softer than steel, right???

I was smart enough to recognize I didn't know everything and decided to shoot only Woodleighs or other conventional lead core bullets like Hornadys, etc in my doubles.

Now a few years later.....If anyone wants to see what overstressed rifleing looks like you have my permission to go see my 450/400 in Enid OK but you better hurry. I wonder if Ray's $200 is still available?

I picked the gun up for a song. The bores were in great condition but the stock was a mess and it had overstressed rifling that was clear to see, once you know what you are looking for. When I had it shipped to JJ he pointed the overstressed rifleing out to me and commented "another one shot with mono bullets". It looks just as described above. I imagine most guys that have handled many doubles have handled guns that have it but don't know what to look for. Paul Hodgins re-stocked it and JJ is re-regulating it and picking up the engraving. When finished it will be beautiful. According to JJ, as long as the gun is shot with correct diameter non-mono bullets it will be fine.

I've handled four guns with overstressed rifleing. The one described above, another one I had shipped in for inspection and passed on. This particular gun had been to JJ's shop 4-5 years earlier for some work and had no overstressed rifleing then but it does now. As well as two others that I've handled and shot that are beautiful guns but clearly display overstressed rifleing. These two have been shot quite a bit with Barnes and Swifts and didn't have the overstressed rifleing when they were bought by the current owner.

In the end do what you want with your guns, they belong to you. But remember when the keyboard experts or the bullet manufacturers tell you there are no problems with mono bullets or that steel is harder than copper there are a least 4 guns out there that show something different and that something is enough to keep me away from the monos.

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4seventy
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: 470evans]
      #114665 - 17/09/08 10:43 PM

470evans,
Thanks for that information, the more we can find out and learn about this the better.
Do you recall the calibers of the other rifles you've seen with the OSR condition?

Woodleighs are the go for double rifles as they have been designed for that exact purpose.
I shoot them in my doubles and bolt guns as well.


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #114674 - 18/09/08 12:52 AM

OK, here's a winner.

How 'bout some pix?

Also, has anybody examined the "spiral pattern" to determine if it is not stressed metal caused by the RIFLING process itself? Just like the swirl pattern that sometimes exists on old Winchester actions which cannot be measured or felt, and only shows up after many years and a patina?

Depending on how rifling is cut, outward pressure could I suppose exist, especially with a very thin-tubed gun. For it to show the length of the barrel, I suggest this might be investigated. Especially since I cannot conceive of how a full-barrel spiral would exist since the barrel would, for some length, be carrying an already engraved bullet, mono or not. Hence my question in the previous thread.

Oh, my supposition is not based merely on a guess. When I stamp letters on knife blades, the letter can and sometimes does show up on the opposite side of the blade "backwards", even though it cannot be measured with a micrometer OR felt with the hand. This makes me wonder that if the visible osr condition exists, it could be caused by either many bullets or internal stresses laid up by rifling.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #114706 - 18/09/08 04:50 AM

Still sceptical arent you

I wonder when the rifling nows to show up on the outside. But you are right it strange that it can be seen the whole length, but it could also be that the bullet never gets a full engraving.

If the barrel is cut it shouldnt be any stress over the rifling, and if its hammered the stress would be lesser over the rifles wouldnt it. But if the stress is lover it could be that its easyer to print the rifling to the outside as the metal isnt as dense as the surrounding. But this doesent give the answer to why it only starts to show after the mono bullets are shot thru it. It would be nice if someone with a rifle that has this OSR problem could look if its cut or hammered.

Are the old riflebarrels you refer to hammered or cut? I ask as the hammerpattern on the outside of the barrel is possible to see in som rifles (it is let to turn as it goes thru the hammers),but then it selden does follow the twist of the rifles.

btw. does your mirror letter show up after the stampings are done or 50 years later?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: 450_366]
      #114711 - 18/09/08 05:52 AM

Quote:

btw. does your mirror letter show up after the stampings are done or 50 years later?



Pretty much immediately!

But the swirl patina on an 86 receiver doesn't. It shows up long after the gun is made.

This topic is a mystery, indeed!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Bramble
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #114724 - 18/09/08 09:41 AM

9.3

Interesting what you say about stampings on blades.

I was looking at a DR for a client some months ago and the proof marks were clearly visible in the bottom of the chamber having carried through from the barrel flats.

It was a 100 year old gun and of course I have no way of knowing if they were always visible or only after years of wear.

Regards

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DarylS
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: Bramble]
      #114729 - 18/09/08 10:29 AM

Bramble - it is unlikely there was any wear in the chambers at all. What is most likely, is the coloured patina from age and use, which shows the stampling. It probably would not have been visible when new.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: DarylS]
      #114733 - 18/09/08 10:45 AM

Bramble:

The blade stamping is caused by using too heavy a hammer to make the stamp. I can eliminate it by using a lighter strike. All my work is by hand so I'm stuck with "feel" for alot of the work.

450 366: You brought up a good point. A very knowledgeable machinist, engineer or metallurgist could help here, but as for rifling, is it possible that cut rifling would result in a relief of stress that would result {in a very thin barrel} in a propensity for "lifting" {I don't know the metallurgical term} of the metal on the outside of the tube? I know in knifemaking that any removal of material on one side of the blade but not the other can result in warping during hardening.

Has anybody ever measured the bore "before and after" of one of these OSR rifles?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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