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bakerb
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Loc: SW MO
Elephant brain shot placement (with pics)
      #114690 - 18/09/08 02:55 AM

Just read "The Perfect Shot." Good book. Wished there were more pictures

So I got some pictures and put where I thought the brain shot should be placed, if your rifle was the camera lens. Let me know if I'm close, or way off. . .

First of all, what is this guy doing??? Is he going to hit the elephant with that rifle? I placed this shot if I had to shoot over him














Thanks

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.


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NE450No2
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bakerb]
      #114722 - 18/09/08 08:55 AM

Baker

That fella in your first picture is Ivan Carter, a Zimbabwe PH, with a lot of elephant experience and a friend of mine.

Many people, me included call him CRAZY IVAN.

He is known for getting close to elephants. He has stopped many a false charge by showing the elephant the butt stock of his gun.

I can say it does work, as I have done the same thing many times while hunting in Zim.

It usually stops them at 12 to 15 yards... at least it has worked so far.

Some of your frontal shots look a little high to me, but that may be just because I have shot most of my elephants at 6 yards or less, where the entry angle would be lower of course.

IMHO it is better to hit a little low than a little high.

There is NOTHING like elephant hunting.


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bigmaxx
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: NE450No2]
      #114727 - 18/09/08 10:07 AM

Thanks for posting. I had some encounters with elephants at Humani that were hair raising. It's nice to be informed on the fine art of stopping elephants. I saw a Peter Capstick DVD where they sawed a skull in half. Very interesting anatomy lesson.

--------------------
One day at a time...


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Ripp
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: NE450No2]
      #114766 - 18/09/08 10:27 PM

Quote:

Baker

That fella in your first picture is Ivan Carter, a Zimbabwe PH, with a lot of elephant experience and a friend of mine.

Many people, me included call him CRAZY IVAN.

He is known for getting close to elephants. He has stopped many a false charge by showing the elephant the butt stock of his gun.




*****


I too know Ivan a bit ---his enthusiasm is contagious---and a bit on the wild side... Have visited with him in Africa and in Reno...the double he is shooting is a Heym in 450 caliber..given to him by one of his clients as a "tip"....

The book Ndlovu is very good and gives many illustrations on the correct placement of your shot...advise to get it--great book on elephant...

Agree with you on the above.. especially on the first photo--shot looks too high to me...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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bigmaxx
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
      #114769 - 18/09/08 11:10 PM

I got a copy of that book from William Finnaughty while at Turgwi Camp. He is the grandson of the William Finnaughty who wrote "Recollections of an Elephant Hunter". He was given the books by the author. Wrote a very nice note in the front cover. Very interesting man and veteran leopard hunter. Can't wait to get time to read it. I think elephant will be the objective for my next safari.

--------------------
One day at a time...


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ozhunter
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
      #114774 - 18/09/08 11:38 PM

From what I have been tort about Ele shot placement, your marks are too high. The protruding cheek bones / Zygomatic arch are a good point to line up with for frontal shots.

Edited by ozhunter (19/09/08 07:56 PM)


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larcher
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: ozhunter]
      #114782 - 19/09/08 01:22 AM

Bake

Thanks for sharing. Nice pics and new ones for once. Nothing wrong with Doktari drawings but You bring more freshness.

I am a bit puzzled by this pic



The spot seems a bit low and tad to the right, hitting the zygomatic arch and probably missing the brain low?

For the other pics, I agree with posters, the spots looks a bit high. No pun intended of course.
Thanks for this interesting post.

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."


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bakerb
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: larcher]
      #114802 - 19/09/08 04:25 AM

Thanks for the replies. It's helpful for me to think about. I guess I still don't understand where an elephant's earhole is. I'll keep trying.

Even though I'm probably 20 years or more away from being financially able to hunt elephants, if I'm ever able, I like to dream. And if I look for the brain shot angle on every elephant picture I see from now on, by the time I get to hunt, I will have visualized the shot enough that it will be automatic.

I'm a big believer in visualization. You train your muscles and develop muscle memory for shooting, so why not train your brain too, so that your brain automatically adjusts for the right shot, and you don't have to think about it.

It's something I've been doing for years in my treestands while bowhunting deer. I visualize different scenarios, and when something does happen, I automatically do what I've rehearsed in my mind. Without thinking about it. Seems to work.

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.


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gryphon
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bakerb]
      #114804 - 19/09/08 05:02 AM

funny enough i am currently re reading Mr Bells fine book on his wanderings,his head shot marks in his drawings differ slightly to the above...i doffs me lid to Mr Bell.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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JPK
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
      #114807 - 19/09/08 05:33 AM

Quote:

I think elephant will be the objective for my next safari.




BigMaxx,

Already planning, eh?

JPK

Edited by JPK (19/09/08 05:35 AM)


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xausa
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: gryphon]
      #114810 - 19/09/08 05:50 AM

I suppose I have as much experience shooting elephants as any of the other participants in this forum. If there is one thing I have come away with as a result of the four brain shots I have attempted, it is that unless you can be completely sure of hitting the brain, you need to be shooting the most powerful rifle you can handle.

John Taylor ascribed values to various rifle-cartridge combinations with regard to their ability to stun an elephant and put him down, irrespective of whether the brain was actually hit. I believe his conclusions were correct. None of the three I shot with my .505 was able to stay on his feet after the initial shot and none got up again. Even the one I shot with a .458 did not make it back to his feet, although he was not stunned and struggled longer.

My first elephant was shot from the side. I had been told to aim above the cheekbone, halfway between the earhole and the eye, which I did. Unfortunately, in retrospect I was probably too close (25-30 yards), so that shooting up at a rather steep angle, I probably missed the brain high. Nonetheless the animal went down and after three more shots, stayed down. One of the 570 grain solids found its way to the far side eye socket, so there was some wandering of the bullet path inside the skull.

My second elephant was completely hidden by undergrowth, except for his head. Unfortunately, he was reaching up with his trunk to strip a delicacy from the tree in front of him, presenting me with a very unusual angle to shoot at. I shot at where I visualized his brain to be, and he went down at the shot. Unfortunately, he immediately began struggling to get up, and I was forced to fire three more times to finish him off. Because his "askari" was threatening a charge, I was unable to get closer to get a clearer shot until after his struggles had ceased. The effect of the .458 was definitely less than that of the .505.

My last two elephants were both taken with quartering brain shots from the rear with the .505. Both were shot behind the left ear and both toppled immediately and did not stir. Both received a heart shot, just to make sure.

Were I to hunt elephants again, which at my age (69) seems quite unlikely, I would not want to use anything less powerful than the .505, and a .577 would be even better, W.D.M. Bell to the contrary, notwithstanding.


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JPK
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: larcher]
      #114811 - 19/09/08 05:50 AM

Quote:











In this photo, the shot is a bit low, but would do the job, imo. Front to back it is fine.

The vertical slit to the right of the "shot spot" is where the ear hole is located, about three or four fingers' width up from the bottom.

The best way to actually see the ear hole is from a bit behind the ear/head junction. There is a fold of skin which obscures to ear hole from a staight side on view or from any angle forward.

The ear hole id's the rearward portion of the brain, you don't want to be shooting behind it if you are directly side to the elephant's ear hole. In fact you want to be a couple of inches in front. Also, there isn't a whole lot of room for a shot below the ear hole, or above.

A couple of the other photos show the shot too high. None too low. The tough part of making the shot, in reality or on the photos is "seeing" the rear of the zygomatic arches, which aren't really visible straight on. On a frontal brain shot you want your bullet to pass about a hands width above the rear of the arches, centered between them.

JPK


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bakerb
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
      #114812 - 19/09/08 05:56 AM

JUST TO CLARIFY

I am not an expert, and don't claim to be. Basically, I've read one book, and wanted to see if my thinking of the spots to shoot for the brain was correct. Obviously, I'm a little off.

Please, if you are going on Safari, please reference something besides this post for your Jumbo brain shot placement

Bake

(I'm an attorney, I had to add my disclaimer)

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.

Edited by bakerb (19/09/08 06:02 AM)


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Ripp
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: xausa]
      #114871 - 19/09/08 10:35 PM

Quote:

I suppose I have as much experience shooting elephants as any of the other participants in this forum. If there is one thing I have come away with as a result of the four brain shots I have attempted, it is that unless you can be completely sure of hitting the brain, you need to be shooting the most powerful rifle you can handle.

John Taylor ascribed values to various rifle-cartridge combinations with regard to their ability to stun an elephant and put him down, irrespective of whether the brain was actually hit. I believe his conclusions were correct. None of the three I shot with my .505 was able to stay on his feet after the initial shot and none got up again. Even the one I shot with a .458 did not make it back to his feet, although he was not stunned and struggled longer. quote]

=================
+++++++++++++




I read with interest on your post...and while I don't have as much experience on elephant yet..hope too one day...but the reason I am responding to this is that from what I have read as of late and talked with PH's is a few items I wanted to share..

Just read an article written a month or two ago in "PETERSONS HUNTING" by Craig Boddington who was hunting in Botswana..which supposedly has considerably larger elephants than those I hunted in northern Zimbabwe..however, in the article he basically stated he was not so sure on the KO factor of John Taylor..that proper placement was of much greater value..--he stated this based on the most recent hunt in which Craig was using I believe a 450 double while his companion was shooting a 577 double..Craig describes how his (Craigs)bull fell to the shot...which he freely admits has not ever been an easy shot for him...however his friend placed two shots at 8 yards into the head of a bull with .577 double--who turned and spun away..they eventually got the bull but it took some doing..

Another PH I visited with when I was in Zim earlier this year stated he felt it best that the caliber you are shooting, particularly when shooting the larger bulls of Botswana..should be in the 2300 fps to 2400 fps range...

The tuskless I shot, as you described, I visualized the brain..using a 400 gr Barnes solid out of a .416 Remington Caliber custom rifle..she dropped to the shot..not much movement at all much less trying to get up...at 17 yards quartering toward us..

Don't misunderstand me please---I love big bores..and love shooting .577 and 505 Gibbs, and all thir type..and do believe in Taylors formula somewhat..but as in all things..there are variables..

I guess my point is--elephant are no different than any other game animal we hunt...shot placement is almost everything..IMHO...yes, there are other factors...but where you smash with the hammer is of more importance than the size of said hammer..again, IMHO...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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bigmaxx
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
      #114876 - 19/09/08 10:47 PM

Good observation Ripp. Look at some of the comparatively piddly calibers Karamojo Bell used. .303 and smaller if memory serves me. While the experience of those old ivory hunters made that possible, I think I will try to take a double rifle when I return one day to hunt elephant. I hope to find a .470 that suits me. I simply must hunt them now!

--------------------
One day at a time...


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Indy
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
      #115098 - 22/09/08 10:32 AM

Karamojo Bell was trying to hit the brain, not knock out the elephant, after many, many practice shots on other elephants. Also, he didn't have to pay a $12,000 trophy fee and stop hunting elephants if one got away.

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bigmaxx
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Indy]
      #115100 - 22/09/08 10:41 AM

Hitting the brain will always knock the elephant out, permanently. You guys feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Bell had much more than a trophy fee at stake!

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One day at a time...


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JPK
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Indy]
      #115102 - 22/09/08 10:50 AM

I'm about 50% successful on frontal brain shots I've made. All of the tuskless have dropped to a miss, one tusked cow faltered but did not drop. Three bulls have not dropped or even faltered, but one was stopped in a charge and turned.

500grs at 2145fps or 450grs at 2190fps.

Bulls are more imune by far from the shock of a close miss.

But a big bore will turn a charge or drop an elephant, I've turned two and so has 500grs, when a medium bore, even one with more velocity and even more enegy just won't. If you doubt this than fire up Buzz Charlton's very informative and fun DVD, "Hutning the African Elephant," and listen for how many times he recites, "...a hunter using a rifle that shoots a 500gr bullet would have dropped this elephants..."

Buzz uses a 416 Rigby and stops a charging cow in the DVD. His narative, "...If I'd have been using a rifle that shot a 500gr bullets, this elephant would have dropped..."

JPK


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bigmaxx
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
      #115104 - 22/09/08 11:02 AM

I am a big fan of the 500 grain bullet too. I put one solid into my buff beside his tail and it was recovered from the throat! Thats some penetration! He was over 40 yards hauling ass straight away. I hunted plains game at Humani and had several close encounters with elephants. I kept two solids in the bottom of the magazine on my .375 ruger. BTW, That was a backup shot on the buff, he already had a 500 grain A-Frame in the boiler room.

Edited by bigmaxx (22/09/08 11:33 AM)


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Ripp
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
      #115110 - 22/09/08 12:47 PM

Quote:

Hitting the brain will always knock the elephant out, permanently. You guys feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Bell had much more than a trophy fee at stake!





Did read an article today where Bell was quoted in saying..for the less experienced hunter he might be better suited to have a larger caliber..as they would not have had the opportunity to shoot the large amount of game he has..

Having said that, I agree with BigMax--don't care if its 250 or 750 grains--if they hit the brain, its lights out...period....

I did find the article mentioned above..it was actually in GUNS & AMMO written by Boddington earlier this year..his buddy was under 20 yards to a bull ele shooting a .577 3" double..both barrels..the bull turned and ran..they did get him..but stated how Boddington was shocked in that the bull didn't drop on the spot...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (22/09/08 11:01 PM)


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bakerb
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
      #115181 - 23/09/08 01:49 AM

Well, after I get Bell's book and maybe some others, I will check back in with some more questions

If I ever go, I plan to at least be packing a .470. And I want to be able to precisely hit the brain. It's not good enough to count on missing and hope to knock out with a large caliber.

Thanks for all of the responses. I am learning a lot

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.


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xausa
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bakerb]
      #115190 - 23/09/08 03:44 AM

If you think of an elephant's brain as an object about the size and shape of a loaf of rye bread, you will be about right. Now imagine that same loaf suspended within a 55 gallon drum, and you have about the same ratio as the size of an elephant's brain to the size of his skull.

There are no bulls eyes painted on the side of the drum to show where to shoot from any angle, and anybody telling you that a hunter with little or no experience shooting an elephant will be able to get it right every time, no matter how much he practices and visualizes, is living in la-la land.

W.D.M.Bell was the Peyton Manning of elephant hunters, but even Peyton has a bad day and gets intercepted occasionally. All I can say is that of the four elephants I have killed (all large bulls, and all but one with 70 lbs.+ of ivory per side) all were brian shots, and all went down at the shot, never to rise again. At the time, I was in my 30's, in great physical shape, and at the top of my form in shooting, both with a rifle and with a shotgun. Nevertheless, I would not want to repeat Bell's experiment with a small bore.

Remember, Bell was shooting for ivory. He was not interested in shooting only one bull from a herd. One of his justifications for using a small rifle was that it didn't alarm the rest of the herd, allowing him to make multiple kills from a single stand, like the buffalo hunters in the American West.

I am not making recommendations to anyone else. Anyone is free to shoot all the elephants he wants with a 6.5X54 Mannlicher Schoenauer, but I, personally, will be using my .500 NE, .500 Jeffery, .505 Gibbs or .577 if I ever have the opportunity to shoot an elephant again. I have always shot for the brain, but it was comforting to know that if my aim was less than perfect or my visualation of where to aim was slightly off, I had an insurance policy in the form of the powerful cartridge.


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JPK
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bakerb]
      #115191 - 23/09/08 03:53 AM

Keep in mind that the challenge of braining an elephant isn't hitting a =/- 6" oblong disk (frontal) or American football sized target (side) at 10 or 20 yards.

The challenge is hitting that disk when its anywhere from 12" to 3' plus behind the point of impact and moving, likewise that football, though a side brain shot is much easier. The apparent motion of the brain at close quarters is significant. Considerably more significant is the apparent motion of the point of impact on the head for a frontal brain shot when the elephant raises or lowers it's head or turns it's head, especially when the whole of the elephant is also moving.

It's been the motion that has caused me the greatest challenge. "Seeing" the brain itself, through the elephant, as the elephant moves, described by Richard Harland in "Ndlovu", is something that I have yet to acheive.

Pushing your approach as close as you can, until the elephant is turning to you and often moving, which I find to be the most incredible experience in the hunt, also makes your shot a heck of a lot more difficult. Standing off even twenty or thirty yards, with plenty of time, and shooting a stationary and unaware elephant isn't the same challenge as approaching until the elephant turns to you at twelve or ten or whatever and you need to mount your rifle and shoot immeadiately.

Buzz Charlton's first DVD is pretty good at showing shot placement on some turning or moving elephants, btw.

JPK


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Ripp
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
      #115195 - 23/09/08 04:47 AM

One thing that helped me with the brain shot was looking at old elephant skulls that were in camp...looking where the brain was on them ---as well as looking at the one I had shot while in the skinning shed...

And again ...while in the field visiting with the PH..and questioning him on the shots and brain position..

Boddington who is probably in the field as much as anyone by his own admission, sure seems to have a problem with the brain shot as well...meanwhile, Ivan Carter flatly states he wants his hunters to ONLY take brain shots which is why he gets the hunters as close as he does..while visiting with him in Reno..he seem to think this was the only way fitting for an animal this majestic to die...I believe we can all have our own thoughts on that one..but do agree..the brain shot is magical when done correctly.....

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: xausa]
      #115196 - 23/09/08 04:53 AM

Quote:

W.D.M.Bell was the Peyton Manning of elephant hunters, but even Peyton has a bad day and gets intercepted occasionally. All I can say is that of the four elephants I have killed (all large bulls, and all but one with 70 lbs.+ of ivory per side) all were brian shots, and all went down at the shot, never to rise again. At the time, I was in my 30's, in great physical shape, and at the top of my form in shooting, both with a rifle and with a shotgun. Nevertheless, I would not want to repeat Bell's experiment with a small bore.





+++++++++++++


XAUSA

Think, IMHO, you've hit part of the puzzle right there...from what I have gathered around campfires in Africa, watching hunters on TV, and seeing them in the field...some think they can spend their way into being great...the beauty of this sport and many others...you have to pay the price to be consistant...you have to put in the training..as in shooting practice...keeping fit, etc...otherwise you will NOT be in the game and unfortunately the game pays the price with being wounded..not always the case...but more often than not..

Not trying to offend anyone here..but my goodness...you are spending at times, tens of thousands of dollars...do both your PH and yourself a favor and get in shape--provided your health permits...and practice shooting...Not to mention anyone on this forum but I will..look at BigMax...I KNOW he did a ton of practicing before his hunt..lots of research and it all worked out...he had a fantastic hunt...

Thanks

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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