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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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Tim
.224 member


Reged: 17/09/08
Posts: 2
Loc: Ohio
Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball?
      #114668 - 17/09/08 11:22 PM

Hello,
I have a Kodiak 72 cal double black powder rifle and have started to have fun with it. I have been reading the post here regarding round balls in shotguns have decided upon a project.

I have a 10-12 year old Ugartechea 10 guage double barreled shotgun that does not get used. It has 32 inch full choked barrels, a substantial recoil pad, an elevated rib with a bead front site and weighs approximatly 10 pounds. I just recieved my MEC reloading equipment and the lyman shotshell reloading manuel for 10 guage.

I was interested in making round ball loads for this gun, and possibly cutting the barrels back to 26-28 inches and having front post site and wide V rear site installed.

Has anyone converted a simple double barreled shotgun to paradox type gun before?
Was adding sites practical, they would be done by gunsmith?
Is there a gunsmith here who does these projects?
I assume, I can exchange a round ball weighing the same (or less) for shot, and use published loading formulas?
If I cut the barrels back, remeasure the actual bore, who can make me a round ball mould for me?



Any thoughts suggestions would be appreciated.

Regards,

Tim

--------------------
Tim


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: Tim]
      #114671 - 17/09/08 11:59 PM

Tim,welcome to Nitroexpress.
Here is the place to get your round ball mould made,very prompt service and beautifully made moulds.

http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/

The conversion idea is sound,I've done it on a couple of 12 gauge shotguns.

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

Edited by ALAN_MCKENZIE (18/09/08 12:03 AM)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #114676 - 18/09/08 01:38 AM

Yes - I second Alan's findings - converting double shotguns to fire round balls is as easy as cutting the barrels behind the chokes, filling in the hollow centre rib if necessary, filing the rib to take sights, standard 3/8" dovetails are easiest and working from established shot loads. Round balls from smoothbores shoot best if bore size or slightly under size, with a shot-cup base wad, placed cup-up underneath the ball. A shot wad has a cupped base wad attached. This is cut off and used cup-up underneath the ball to help centre the ball as it travels up the bore. This system has worked for me giving excellent results. The below is the order of placing wads in the hull.
& means powder
= means overpowder wad/s
( is the gas check wad, cup-up underneath the ball
} is the top wad or fold crimp which is what I use

; So this system is powder $ then wads = then ball centering wad ( then crimp }.

If you want to develop black powder loads to find what a REAL 10 bore was like to shoot with round ball, merely pour a 2 7/8" 10 bore hull with 200gr. of 1F GOEX or 2F GOEX powder, then place a card wad over the black powder powder, then the gas check wad part of a shot-wad underneath the ball, then crimp You adjust the wad height with card or fibre wads to get the correct height for a crimp, just as you would if loading shot. This is just a moderate load, 7.4 drams. A full BP load might be around 9 or 10 drams. There are 27.3grains in a dram.

I use Jeff Tanner's moulds in my 12 bore round ball guns.
You should measure your bore before ordering a mould. You will need a set of RCBS or Lyman handles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: DarylS]
      #114777 - 19/09/08 12:14 AM

Daryl,what are your thoughts on a rolled crimp to hold the ball in ?

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #114780 - 19/09/08 12:20 AM

I've never used a roll crimp - but see no reason why it's use should not be used. It would allow heavier charges of black powder, or more wads to be used. I've been meaning to buy the Lyman roll crimper for about 30 years but never got around to ordering one. Wad column heights would have to be absoltuely perfect for a good roll crimp I think. With a folded crimp (in my press) if the wad height is a bit high, no problem - the ball merely shows through in the centre of the crimp. Because I live fairly close to a trap range and also use 12 bore cases, both spent trap wads (for cutting the gas checks off the bottoms) as well as hulls are free for the taking. When using black powder loads, I discard the hulls after one shot. In high humidity areas, they take on moisture from the fouling within and I refuse to clean plastic hulls.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: DarylS]
      #114781 - 19/09/08 12:55 AM

Daryl,I've been cutting once used AA winchester hulls.
I cut them down to 2.466 or just under 2 1/2 inches.
Cut the petals off a standard wad.
Make a donut shaped 1/2 inch wax impregnated saddle felt wad for the ball to sit on
Then roll crimp.
I've had no problems with the ball being loose.
I'm still working on different powders however accuracy is acceptable at 65 yards.(4inches)
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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CowboyCS
.333 member


Reged: 05/10/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Kansas u.S.A.
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #114793 - 19/09/08 02:25 AM

Quick question?, for those of you who have cut a shotgun back to shoot roundball.
Did you re-regulate for the roundball, or did you just work up a load that was a close as you could get and then live with it?
And what kind of accuracy?

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: CowboyCS]
      #114858 - 19/09/08 07:35 PM

Not worth the trouble to regulate.
I've got some good loads with reasonable accuracy using the Lyman moulds and now I'm working up some loads for the round ball.
3-4 inches at 60 yards so far.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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bigmaxx
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Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #114868 - 19/09/08 10:26 PM

Very interesting. I have a 12 gauge sterlingworth that has been cut to 21" by some quail man in it's history. I would love to do a similar project with it. Work up a load and maybe add some express sights. Give it a little double rifle flavor and use it on hogs in brush. Probably deer in thickets too.

--------------------
One day at a time...


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Tim
.224 member


Reged: 17/09/08
Posts: 2
Loc: Ohio
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: bigmaxx]
      #115022 - 21/09/08 08:50 AM

Thank you for your replies. Everything is helpfull for my first project.
I am ordering front and rear sites from jeff's outfitters, plan to have the bqarrels cut back top 28 inches and have the sites silver sodered to the rib. The project will take a little time as local gunsmith is buisy with preseason hunting guns, but will post when finished.

Regards,

Tim

--------------------
Tim


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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #115024 - 21/09/08 09:29 AM

Quote:

Tim,welcome to Nitroexpress.
Here is the place to get your round ball mould made,very prompt service and beautifully made moulds.

http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/

The conversion idea is sound,I've done it on a couple of 12 gauge shotguns.

Al





Please note I just clicked on this link and my virus scanner reported a Trojan .exe file downloaded from this location.

Regards


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CowboyCS
.333 member


Reged: 05/10/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Kansas u.S.A.
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: Bramble]
      #115028 - 21/09/08 10:08 AM

yeah Jeff's home page isn't working right, but if you open to the bullet moulds page the rest seems to be alright. try this link:
Jeff Tanner Bullet Moulds

C

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: CowboyCS]
      #115062 - 22/09/08 02:47 AM

Sounds great, Al. Good work. Your wod column sounds just fine. I preferred to use the gas check off the bottom of the wad with the cup facing up to hold the undersized ball centred for better accuracy. A do-nut wad would do the same.

The pretty much flat nosed Lyman sabot slug weighs 506gr. in Cdn. WW's and is just smalle enough to fit inside a red WW field wad. It should be a good killer for smokeless loads. I'm assuming that's the one you are referring to, Al.

For black powder loads, I've achieved as good accuracy with black as with smokeless. Smokeless loads developing the same velocity as black powder, have about 1/2 the recoil of the black, BTW.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: DarylS]
      #115170 - 23/09/08 12:24 AM

Yes Daryl thats the mould I was refering to with regards to accuracy of 3" at 60 yards.


With the lubricated donut felt wad under the ball,it seals very well and keeps the barrel clean.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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50Calshtr
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Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #115458 - 25/09/08 07:11 AM

I have also done a similar conversion with a 12 Ga. SxS. I would suggest you find a load that shoots good groups from each barrel, even if seperate, before shortening the barrels. In my case my gun shot groups about 8 to 10 inches apart at 50 yds. I then started taking one inch sections off the barrels until the groups converged. By shortening the barrels you are reducing the time the slug stays in the barrel as it recoils up and away from the center line. I put a rear sight on the rib and superglued a front on, then as I chopped of the barrels I'd knock off the front sight and reglue it on the muzzle end of the rib and shoot another group. Started with 28 inch barrels and ended up with 21 but it would hit a playing card at 50 yds with either barrel. BTW did the shortening on the range with a hacksaw, drew some interesting comments!!
That Lyman slug mentioned is a real killer and accurate. I've probably taken 6 - 8 deer with them and never recover one, complete penetration. I cast mine from wheel weights.
Best.


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Yogi000
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Reged: 02/03/06
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Loc: New York, USA
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #117543 - 24/10/08 03:15 AM

10 gauge double barrel shooting round ball is one gun I also want to make!

I have a 12 gauge double smoothie with 23 inch barrels and express rifle sights. I load and shoot .720 diameter lead round balls. Very accurate out to 50 yards. I listened to Daryl and load up powder, card wad, then place an upside down and cut up shot cup, and then the round ball. Then do a roll crimp using a drill press.

I've also made up a little 410 double into a slug gun. I cut the barrels down to 18 and 1/2 inches and put a big bead site on the front and v site on the back. The left barrel is dead on with factory 3 inch slugs, the right barrel does cross quite a bit. But I just always shoot the left first then adjust. With training I can put both round balls into nearly the same hole at 25 yards.

But when I find the right gun, I will take a double 10 gauge, cut the barrels to about 20 inches and install express sites on it. That is one of my dream guns for sure. With pure lead round ball those projectiles will come in at about 700 GRAINS EACH. That is alot of lead to toss at a pig or Moose.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Modern 10 guage shotgun with round ball? [Re: Yogi000]
      #117566 - 24/10/08 10:19 AM

Al- I presume your gun is a smoothbore? A friend sent me some of the Lyman slugs to test in my .12 bore pump. One of these days, I'll put the mag. pad on my shoulder and try them out.

A double 10 bore would be fun for sure. I think I'd prefer the tubes to be 24" or 26" though.

A pure lead ball at .774" will be a heavy one, that's for sure. 10 to the pound = 700gr. Keep in mine, a 10 bore shot cup with slightly reduced petals may contain a Lyman .735" ball perfectly, or 12 bore wads placed inside the plastic wad can give the correct height for crimping. Some of the guys got fairly good accuracy from their cap-lock 12's shooting 20 bore balls in trap wads (BP shotguns) The same configuration should give reasonable results from a 10 - ie: the Lyman .735" ball - standard mould.

Once a guy gets a good load for round balls in these smoothbore guns and actually tries them on either game or in penetration tests, he rarely even thinks of factory slugs for his gun.

Some time ago, I attempted to get a friend to cut the tubes on his double .410. After measuring up the wall thickness, I concluded there was enough meat to rifle them. The 3" .410 shell holds more than enough black powder to launch a sized 350gr. slug at about 1,340+fps, matching some of the 1870's buffalo .40's. I'm not sure how much the pastic case would hold, however one might use .444 Marlin cases fireformed - just an idea - no practical testing on that as of yet.

I hadn't thought of using factory slugs or round balls in a .410 due to the small size and light weight, however do recall a .410 'vermin load' mentioned in an article using 3 or 4 undersize balls (000 I think) with just enough Unique or Herco to get 1,300fps. These were loaded in .444 Marlin cases and shot from a Marlin rifle. The same idea could be made to work in a pelter(shotgun).

For rifling, if that's a idea with merit, it would be a simple matter to use a .45 cal. rifle barrel with an 18" twist as a guide for the single tooth cutter for the .410 bores - as was done for rifling muzzleloading barrels in some back-woods shops.

The same idea could be used to scratch some grooves in a cut-back smoothbore of larger persuasion. www.trackofthewolf.com sells muzzleloading barrels for less than $100 in .54 cal having 80" of twist. The 12 bore Lyman slug would benefit some as would any round ball load. The rifling wouldn't have to be deeper than about .005" or .006" to be effective in assisting with accuracy. In a 12 bore, if tightly patched inside a plastic hull the .715" ball could give game killing accuracy to as far away as you could hit a deer, moose or bear in the vitals. That's .545gr. for the .715".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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