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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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bakerb
.224 member


Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO
Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels????
      #114135 - 11/09/08 12:34 AM

Hello all. Just registered here, have snooped through off and on for a year or two. Tell you a little about myself. I'm 26, absolutely love hunting. Have been enthralled with African hunting since I was a little kid. Started out being obsessed with the Big 5, just like most. Got to reading more and more boddington, and all of the sudden was obsessed with the spiral horns. Was obsessed with the spiral horns for a couple of years, then. . . I moved on to sheep hunting, and I'm just now getting off a 3 or 4 year obsession with sheep (Mongolia sheep in particular). Keep in mind I haven't hunted any of these animals yet. Just read everything about it that I could possibly beg, borrow, or buy.

Well, I made a mistake, and bought "Tracks across Africa" by Boddington, and the Africa bug is back again, big time. Now I want a double rifle and hunt elephant. It's terrible, I have no means right now for that.

Anyways, I was looking at big bore rifles, and am very bothered by the fact that CZ's 550 Safari Magnum is one of the few I can find that doesn't have a sling swivel on the barrel. I don't get this at all. From past obessessions with long-range rifles and sheep hunting, I've learned that you want nothing to touch that barrel, because it will affect accuracy. I always cringe when I see somebody on a hunting video rest the BARREL on something for a rest.

I know you're not shooting extreme range with a big bore, but if you sighted in your big bore from a bench, then put a sling on it, and used that sling for support while taking a 100 yard shot at a cape buffalo, that could severely alter your impact, and could possibly mean a wounded animal. So why in the name of Zeus's butthole would any company put a sling swivel on a BARREL?

Maybe there is a good reason, if so, please enlighten me. . . .

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: bakerb]
      #114138 - 11/09/08 01:14 AM

Welcome to the site!


You're in good company here, whatever plans you had for expenses besides big game hunts and fine rifles are in jeopardy though...

On the rifle.
First thing to note is that you're not going to be sighting that big bore rifle in off the bench -- in what traditional sense you've come to expect.
Big bore Dangerous Game rifles are sighted in and practice shot from field hunting positions - standing, sitting, improvised support from trees and sticks...

What you've been seeing with sling swivels on the barrel is a design premise you'd very much come to appreciate the first time a stock mounted sling swivel tore your hand up under recoil.
The big bore DG rifle is a recoil machine.
From field positions, properly handled, in real hunting scenarios, you'll never notice the recoil, as in the nature of the moment your body and nervous system essentially shield you from the affect of firing the rifle.
Most guys note that the muzzle blast doesn't even seem to effect their hearing, even the very moment after the shot.
What's important is to practice a lot so that your muscle memory is programmed to do the right thing when the dung hits the fan.

On accuracy.., although the Dangerous Game rifle is not designed to be a sub-MOA tack driving long range system, it's surprising to see how many MOA big bore DG rifles you see - even with their express sights, sling swivels and slings present.
I've shot numerous MOA groups over the iron sights of my .458win Whitworth Express Mauser bolt rifle.
I've seen many other serious hammers that were very, very accurate.
In regards to DG hunting though, it's "not so much the arrow, as it is the Indian" who will make the difference when the time comes.

There is a great network of hunters and shooters who visit this site. It's not at all uncommon for these members to get together for big group hunts and just to burn powder together. Many times in the past new enthusiasts have come along for these events and have gotten their first opportunities to handle and shoot real-for-real big bore DG rifles.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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bakerb
.224 member


Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: tinker]
      #114141 - 11/09/08 02:13 AM

Thanks for the reply Tinker, never considered recoil. And my comment about bench-zeroing was more for the DG rifle that has a removable low power variable scope. Which is the setup I would like.

I know that with my .300 RUM, I zero from the bench only. All practice is in field positions. So I know that when I miss a foot under something at 250 yards (like I did last night on a coyote), it's because I just made a bad shot, not because the rifle was not zeroed properly

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.

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szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2117
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: bakerb]
      #114144 - 11/09/08 02:42 AM

Hello Bekerb
My name is Steve Zihn. I am a gunsmith. I earn my living making muzzleloaders, but I have done gunsmithing on many types of arms through out my years.
My 1st passion is flintlocks, but I love any kind of shooting that burns powder.
I have a considerable amount of experience building competition center fire rifles and sniper rifles in years past, and also I am familiar with the high accuracy world of the AR-15 rifles.
The reason I tell you all this is to illustrate that I am not a new comer to any of this.
The idea that a sling swivel mount on the barrel is going to harm accuracy is not necessarily true. Look at the world of 100 yd competition and the before mentioned AR-15 futurity. Many if not most of these rifle have muzzle breaks on them. If you have followed "high Power competition" any at all in the last 6-8 years, I am sure you know that there are NO 30 caliber records anymore. ALL are now held by the 22s 24s and 6.5MM. And I am talking about 1000 yd matches too.

You see, hanging something on the barrel is not going to harm your accuracy as long as it's not touching anything. In some cases (like the Browning BOSS and it's copies) it will actually improve the accuracy.
I Have 4 scoped rifles with sling mounts on the barrels, a 25-06, a 270 winchester a 338-06 and a 375 H&H.
My 338-06 is the least accurate and will "only" group at MOA now and then, but mostly I can keep them into about 1.25" at 100 yds. ( I have never seen an elk that small)
The other 3 rifles all shoot under the M.O.A. mark, and the 375 and 25-06 are shockingly accurate. They shoot UNDER MOA.
The trick is you can't have any pressure on the sling when you are shooting. It needs to just "hang" down so it's not effecting anything one time and not the next.

So you need not worry about loosing accuracy on your "classic" rifles as long as you understand them. As far as having a barrel mounted sling on a heavy hitter (416 or larger) I would not care one way or the other if I had "only a 2 inch gun".
You see, you'll never be shooting so far at something small enough to would make any difference at all with such calibers.

Happy hunting
Steve

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: bakerb]
      #114146 - 11/09/08 02:45 AM

Baker-

You're welcome.
On zeroing from the bench, it's important to consider what's happening with the rifle during the 'internal ballistics' stage of the shot.

The zero from the bench is often (most often) different from the zero from a hunting position.
This is the reason there is such a thing as a 'Standing Bench' for use with big bore rifles and double rifles.
The shooter stands, the bench surface is high, and the only means of support to the shooter is via a sandbag which doesn't contact any part of the rifle. The shooter handles the rifle as it he would in a hunting situation, supporting the back side of the support hand with a sand bag, his body and rifle able to move under recoil totally uninhibited by the bench or supports.

Especially with the big bore, heavy recoiling rifles, the adjusted 'sight zero' should perfectly reflect the point of impact from real hunting positions.
It makes a difference, and getting range results to match field performance requires some special consideration.




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: szihn]
      #114147 - 11/09/08 02:53 AM

Steve-

Excellent point!


Quote:

...I can keep them into about 1.25" at 100 yds. ( I have never seen an elk that small)
You see, you'll never be shooting so far at something small enough to would make any difference at all with such calibers...




Although those tiny African Brush Bucks are pretty cool, at a couple hundred yards they'll look pretty small!




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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bakerb
.224 member


Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: tinker]
      #114152 - 11/09/08 04:38 AM

I guess I should have clarified. I know that having something on the barrel won't have an impact as long as it is already there. But I know from experience that even using a bipod, versus bench will have a different impact point. So my concern was, for example. . . buying a .416 Rigby (free floating the barrel and pillar bedding, if that is done on DG rifles), mounting a removable variable Swarovski, and zeroing this beauty (without a sling on it), for 100 yards. And shooting enough to learn that it will shoot 3 inches low at 200 yards (I don't have one, so don't know the exact ballistics). Well, while looking for something big in Africa, we happen upon a beautiful bushbuck at a little over 200 yards. We're busted, I can't get to a tree, it's now or never, so I take an arm loop through the sling, kneel, and touch one off. . . and shoot right over the sucker. Probably not a big deal, because from what I've read, bushbuck aren't exactly scarce. But still, I HATE missing. And like I said, I don't know if it would have that big of an effect, but it would mess with my head, and could hurt my confidence.

I love rifles and part of my psche is that everything has to be perfect. My equipment has to be top notch, and I have to have complete confidence, or it messes with my head, and that ain't good. I've parked a lot of money in my .300 RUM so that I'll have confidence in it. I've parked a lot of money into an M4 type AR-15 so that I'll have confidence in it. So I guess my concern is that I would want to eliminate any factor whatsoever, regarding my equipment, that would hurt my confidence in that weapon.

Here are some groups from my two favorite rifles. Here's a .300 RUM group. Not great, but keep in mind that I'm not a really great shot. Competent in the field, at best, hopefully


and the rifle itself. Notice the camouflage tape on the barrel, that has been there since day one.


And here is a group from my AR, at 100, with 4x Trijicon


and the rifle with my wife behind the trigger



And the whole point of my AR setup


Bake

Edited by bakerb (11/09/08 04:43 AM)

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: bakerb]
      #114158 - 11/09/08 05:10 AM

Bake, if you really want the sling hold option on a big bore, there is no law that says you can't have a custom stock made that positions the sling swivel far enough out that no contact with the support hand is possible. It would not be traditional, and probably the sling would see little or no use, but so what, if you wanted such a setup it could be had.

The front sling swivel on my Sako .375 H&H Mag is mounted on the stock. I've never had a serious problem with the swivel biting me as the recoil level of this rifle is not so violent. I have used the sling for support several times in the field over the years, so it is not a worthless appendage.

I can see where a one-gun hunter in Africa who is used to shooting with a sling might want such an option even on a fairly heavy gun, say such as a .416 Rigby/or/Remington as such a rifle is flat enough shooting for all types of game and heavy enough for the Big 5.

I think many people have their highest interest in traditional gun designs. For myself, I always enjoy seeing highly personalized guns and find customized touches that address the nuances of personal taste, physique, build, habits and comfort to be fascinating.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #114159 - 11/09/08 05:53 AM

Bake,
If you are talking about down pressure on the barrel when you wrap your arm in the sling, then yes, that can and will affect the point of impact. The tighter you pull, the more tha shot will be off. The solution to this problem is to sight in over the bench, then try the gun/sling combination shooting offhand, and see how much it throws your shots off. You may then wish to adjust the sights so that they make up for this extra pressure. At the very least, you will know how much it throws the bullets off at measured distances. Welcome to the group, by the way. Hope you have fun and learn some new things here. Bob H.

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Ben
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Northern Territory, Australia
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #114186 - 11/09/08 05:40 PM

G'day Baker,

I'm new here also, and have a CZ550 in .416 Rigby like you mentioned. It was the best that I could afford at the time. I love it! I'm aware of the sling swivel, and just position my hand accordingly, and haven't had a problem. Most of my hunting shots are taken unsupported or with my left hand resting against a tree or termite mound.

Cheers,

Ben

This photo was taken yesterday evening, after a successful feral donkey hunt:

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bakerb
.224 member


Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: Ben]
      #114215 - 12/09/08 12:49 AM

Beautiful rifle Ben, that is exactly what I want. I think CZ makes a quality product. But they're certainly not high comparitively

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.

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Bill_Cooley
.300 member


Reged: 14/12/06
Posts: 197
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: bakerb]
      #114435 - 15/09/08 02:34 AM


bakerb,
Welcome to the forum.
One of the reasons for the barrel mounted sling is recoil but the other main reason is to lower the muzzle so it is easier to carry your rifle in the brush and thick growth.
Bill

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bigmaxx
.375 member


Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #114438 - 15/09/08 03:01 AM

I agree with everything thats already been said here. I have a Ruger M77 in .458 lott and the sling mount is on the barrel. From a rest it will frequently fire a group at 100 yards with all the shots touching if I do my part properly. Adequate for any large game. CZ does make a model with the sling mount on the barrel. It is called the CZ 550 Safari Classic. I have had one and they are very nice rifles. My advice is to get a good rifle in a big enough caliber that you can afford, and go ahead and go on Safari!

--------------------
One day at a time...

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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Introduction and question about Sling swivels on barrels???? [Re: bakerb]
      #115481 - 25/09/08 12:32 PM

I have a Ruger 77 in .416 Rigby that I used on a recent Cape Buffalo hunt. It's got a barrel band for the sling, and presents no problem at all. It shoots 400 grain Barnes TSX, and Woodleigh 410 grain solids into the same hole at 100 yards from the bench. I shot my buffalo at 163 yards, using shooting sticks and a sitting position, and also was in a tight sling. The shot was quartering away while the bull was laying down, and I hit it just behind the near shoulder, center punched the heart, and the TSX was recovered under the skin of the off shoulder. The p.o.i.was exactly where my PH told me to put it.

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