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93: A good example of metal displacement to be sure. SOME does appear to have been pushed back along the bands and I would think such displacement could stress lands more than with a softskinned jacketed bullet {?} but that seems to be the reason such bullets are purposefully made slightly undersize. But the lion's share looks to have smeared back into the groove behind each band as noted above. And your barrel seems to have allowed the lateral expansion.

Of course, a thick-STEEL-jacketed bullet is going to cause stress, too, and thus the need for some sort of comparative test as Daryl called for in the first place. And Barnes says in the posted material that they have performed such a test using pressure as the standard by which to compare the two. Maybe pressure is not the only thing that should be examined and compared, but can we make sense of a statement that pressure has nothing to do with OSR? Such a statement would seem to be ridiculous.

The bronze French Balle D bullet is one example of a "hard" {or is it?} bullet used in massive quantities. Another example is various military AP rounds and some standard military steel core bullets with excessively thin lead envelopes under the steel or gilding metal jacket. Some such bullets have been noted as being hard on barrels but the damage is normally noted as increased rifling wear.

Could it be that the typical military barrel is just thick enough that it supports the rifling so as not to allow and expansion of the brrael beyond its springback capability and the doubles with osr have tubes so thin they lack this support?

Sounds plausible, but this nevertheless doesn't explain the existence {if it exists} of osr showing up on the whole length of the barrel unless bullets are not engraved, and the lands are merely "getting out of their way" the whole length of the bullets trip down the bore.

Can anyone show a pic of a recovered bullet that is NOT engraved?

This has been a fun mental exercise, sort of like twisting a Rubic's Cube.

Except nobody seems to have been able to line up the colors yet.

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Perhaps someone can post a photo of an expended North Fork or GS Custom?

JPK

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JPK:

No FMJ's from NF, but here is a Barnes TSX. This bullet was fired from my SAKO .375 and recovered from my boards and jugs test media. Looks like some material was pushed laterally, but the band does not look like it contacted the bottom of the groove {?}.


A few comments...

First, the topic is Barnes Banded Solids. It isn't Bubba's Bore Busters. So any experience anybody has MIGHT be legit since Barnes is not speaking for Bubba, but rather for Barnes Banded Solids. Throwing rocks at Barnes because some Joemoke made a bad bullet is like swearing off all FMJ's because some AP rounds rub lands smooth too fast.

I have no experience with Barnes Banded Solids. I have not shot them. Barnes says they are good to go for doubles. So far nobody has disproven that assertion or even made any attempt to do so except to paint the company the color of evil with a broad brush.

Maybe some monos are bad. Maybe some have blown up some guns. Maybe they have reversed the rifling on a truckfull of doubles. "Dozens" even. Maybe, maybe. I've asked questions in good faith, only to be met with ear-deafening silence by those who claim to know. I'd like to know. I'd like to see if SOME monos are bad, and maybe some aren't, or maybe all are bad?

Or, maybe Barnes is...maybe...could it be...telling the truth about their Banded Solids?

I read of 400Nitro's attempt to resize a mono. He almost busted his bench doing it.

Ahhh! Finally, something I have some experience at. Maybe alot of experience. Resizing .375 bullets down to 9.3, a bit farther than 400 goes IIRC.

I grabbed a Barnes TSX and tried to run it from .375 to .370 {first step in my drawing die series}.

I failed.

No way I wanted to break my bench or ruin my die. I reefed on it a bit but I gave up. Threw in the towel. The Barnes TSX was too hard to get thru the die. Too tough. I've resized many .375 bullets down to .368, .367, .366 and .365 diameters. No dice on the solid copper-alloy Barnes TSX.

Must be a barrel blower, right?

Maybe. All these maybes...

But before the Anti-Barnes crowd experiences an earthshaking, collective, ballistic orgasm, lemme add...

I couldn't push a pussywillow-bud HORNADY "thin" steel-jacketed FMJ through either!! No dice, and that thing totally seized up the die. Had to beat on a steel rod for some time till I got it out.

You guys, I don't know.

Maybe some monos are really bad stuff and will wreck your double.

Maybe some guys are trying to protect the value of old, worn out, poorly designed, poorly made, poorly refinished or otherwise suspect, ruined guns by blaming the next best thing from the truth, the Barnes solid.

When I started this inquiry, I really had no idea what the truth is, but since I can't get anybody from the Anti-Barnes crowd to upload a picture, I'm left thinking they are just making it up or inferring guilt by association.

What else can a guy think?

Heck, there's $400 laying on the table waiting for proof. Are ALL double gun owners THAT rich that they are content to leave it there?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Maybe your computer skills are up to "stealing" a photo from there? Mine are unfortunately not.


JPK

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Maybe your computer skills are up to "stealing" a photo from there? Mine are unfortunately not.

JPK

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here you go JPK



best

peter

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Perhaps someone can post a photo of an expended North Fork or GS Custom?

JPK

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Here is a GSFN 265 gr. from the same Merkel:



closeup:



Also a Bridger from 9,3x62:



closeup:

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Its a real shame that North Fork ceased production

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9Three,
I'm pleased to see that you brought up the fact about the bullet being engraved/sized in the heavy barrel section forward of the chamber.

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GSC has been mentioned a number of times so, for the record, our position on the mono bullet in a double rifle debate is simple: If a double rifle delaminates as a result of using GSC drive band bullets in it, we will pay for the repair.

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Even less reason to worry about whether Barnes is suitable
For me, the real debate is whether the drive-band solid is actually superior to the full length FMJ........
I'm pretty sure I can anticipate what a few responses will be!

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If they say it will harm a double, how many do you think would think it over before they shoot them in any other rifle?

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GSC has been mentioned a number of times so, for the record, our position on the mono bullet in a double rifle debate is simple: If a double rifle delaminates as a result of using GSC drive band bullets in it, we will pay for the repair.

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Even less reason to worry about whether Barnes is suitable
For me, the real debate is whether the drive-band solid is actually superior to the full length FMJ........
I'm pretty sure I can anticipate what a few responses will be!

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A truncated cone flat nose solid is better than a round nose solid for penetration. North Fork and GS Custom have truncated cone flat noses. Barnes does not.

Maybe the best of both worlds wll turn out to be the non-truncated cone flat nose 500gr Hornaday steel jacketed, lead cored solid.

Even though the flat noses are better for penetration, the .458", 500gr round nose steel jackets solid Woodleighs I've used at 2145fps MV have provided enough. The 450gr North Forks at 2190fps MV have provided quite a bit more than enough.

JPK

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The ONLY reason I can think of using a monometal is if you are in an area in which the radical greens have placed restrictions on lead bullets, ie. condor country. No dangerous game there...
I honestly cannot think of a real world benefit to using them in any firearm.

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My comment here is a little off topic, but Huvius' remarks hits one of my questions I've been wondering about these past 15 years of bullets and shooting that John Barness raises often on 24hourcampfire:

Are we getting a little to obsessed with quality bullets?

We've gotten to a point where I've read people on internet forums and at the range give lectures on how you can't trust those "old bullets" on whitetails. That you "need" a [fill in the blank with bonded, cup nose, monometal, etc] to take down that deer or boar.

Sure after capebuffalo and elephant, pass the super-duper bullets, but most of the game commonly hunted in North America or Europe?

I've seen a some very nice one shot kills on LARGE black bears with Remington corelokts, and a good brown bear killed with one shot of an 'passe' nosler partition from a 300WM. I know samples of one or a handful, but...

I was hunting with a buddy on some mouflon cull hunts here in Hawaii. The federal game control guys were with us and they shot boars and mouflon all the time, killing several each week for sevearal years. My buddy was really "into" premium bullets at the time and asked the game control guy with us what type of bullets he used. They said Hornady interlocks. My buddy almost rolled his eyes and then proceded to lecture the guy on how "there are a lot of problems with those bullets, and..." The game control guy said, "Hey, I shoot these every day, and the animals die. That's good enough for me."

Again, sorry for the off-topic rant!

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In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli

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The fact is that the actual bullets do the killing.A better bullet acting within the velocity/energy parameters of the cartridge/rifle hunted makes a better mousetrap.

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