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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 450_366]
      #114436 - 15/09/08 02:38 AM

Here's an idea chaps. I have just taken delivery of a custom Dumoulin O/U .470 NE which I am taking to africa in 14 days, with woodleigh ammo. If somebody gets me the person to speak to at Barnes and they are willing to provide the ammo and sign a disclaimer saying they will reimburse me the full purchase price (not too high, approx US$12k, it was a cancelled order I bought off auction and yes I am going to try it off a lead sled next week as well as off sticks and offhand)) if,after shooting 50 rounds, when I present the rifle to the head of barrel making at H&H to see if he believes it has been damaged, is this an idea ? Put it to rest at least for modern steel. Thoughts, best, Mike

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DarylS
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #114440 - 15/09/08 03:42 AM

Mike - good idea - however Barnes would have to inspect that rifle before your trip just to take measurements, etc. That probably wouldn't cost you very much. I would also surmise they would not and should not engage in a back-woods test like this, without having control over what was fired it the gun & how it was fired. That would be foolish for them, wouldn't it? What's to stop somone from shooting solid steel bullets just to turn the test? Although we know you wouldn't do this Mike, they cannot take the chance, and trust a stranger, thus placing their livelihood or even part of their livelihood on the outcome - as I said, rather foolish. Kinda like, stand right here on this spot and I'll drive straight at you at 100 mph and swerve at the last moment. We want to get your expression on film. I promise to swerve and not hit you.

BTW - I would not shoot any rifle off a lead sled - perhaps your double rifle is stocked to absorb such abuse.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NE450No2
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: DarylS]
      #114464 - 15/09/08 10:37 AM

Mike I would not shoot ANY double rifle in a Lead Sled.

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bwananelson
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #114467 - 15/09/08 11:56 AM

connie brooks has a 470NE DOUBLE ask her if she has had problems with it,i know she shot an elephant with it.if i say again if why is it not in the manuels you recieve with the fire arms,we had in my opionon anyway an expert with countless hours building doubles cast doubt.i have asked two oter major builders they did not even hesitate to answer yes.i know if you were to call barnes bullets and ask to speak with connie she would take the time to answer.has anyone here personally sued for replacement of a damaged fire arm or know someone doing so.i have not.hear say and second hand info can prove any point desired.fact the gun came apart shooting solids either quit shooting solids or buy a better gun.i do notice alot of mud get slung here off and on with no real proof towards the mud is being directed.hey we are all entitled to an opinion right or wrong or use it to prove a point you want to prove.has any one goggled to see if any law suits are pending against barnes.i doubt it.but it does spur some good thought and a nice forum.sit back enjoy a double malt light a padrone and enjoy this bantor i do

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: bwananelson]
      #114489 - 15/09/08 06:59 PM

There have been examples of double rifles damaged on NE and other forums by the use of "standard" monometal bullets.

Evidence of over-stressed rifling has been reported for example.

Personally unless I got an iron-clad replacement guarantee from the gunmaker that they are acceptable to use in their rifles I wouldn't touch them in a double rifle. They might be fine and great bullets in other rifles however.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: NitroX]
      #114495 - 15/09/08 08:15 PM

Daryl S, good point, that was a daft idea of mine, they are a big company and would want to do the tests under strictly controlled conditions. Apologies, best, Mike

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450_366
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #114499 - 15/09/08 09:37 PM

I think i nned to clearify that i do not accuse barnes for anything, i havent heard or seen a barrel break in anyway from their bullet.

The thing i initially wanted to point out was that they probably had problems and that the proof that they gave was weak.

Here is a part taken from there news letter for instance.

Quote:



I’m comfortable stating that Barnes Banded Solids are better for antique barrels than the competition.







They are not saying they will never harm the barrels they are saying there bullets are better then the competition.

Quote:


Holland reported to us that a monolithic solid manufactured by another company actually damaged one of their rifles. However, this particular company was at one time using melted down, reclaimed cartridge case brass to manufacture their monolithic solids. Barnes has always used pure, virgin material for our Solids, and now Banded Solids.





But now i saw that they are giving powder specs, not as i staded they are not.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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4seventy
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: NitroX]
      #114505 - 15/09/08 10:38 PM

Quote:

Personally unless I got an iron-clad replacement guarantee from the gunmaker that they are acceptable to use in their rifles I wouldn't touch them in a double rifle. They might be fine and great bullets in other rifles however.




I reckon that pretty well sums up my feelings on the subject as well.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 4seventy]
      #114575 - 16/09/08 03:20 PM

A thread from 2004 on this subject - "Homogenious bullets and doubles "

Some more with relevant posts of interest of varying relevance:

Monolithic Solid Bullets hurting barrels?

My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel

Used Double Trouble

Used double rifle ... used double trouble!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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9.3x57
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: NitroX]
      #114633 - 17/09/08 12:43 PM

OK Nitro:

You are stirring the pot, aren't you!?

So we have a fellow who offers 200 bucks to see any proof of a gun wrecked by mono bullets and gets no takers, another gun wrecked when shooting a Woodleigh and a few junkers pawned off to the unsuspecting that don't indicate proof of any particular bullet being the cassus belli of anything.

So now I'm as confused as ever.

Is the whole thing a comedy act and I took it for a drama?

By the way, anybody here care to guess what is the most popular copper-alloy, monolithic solid ever fired?

Hint: BILLIONS have been shot over the years.

PS: Larcher better know!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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escard
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #114652 - 17/09/08 06:30 PM

if there are beafy barrel-contours on your DR there is no problem to use Barnes banded-solids on a regular basis....if there are some skinny barrels in your DR I would NOT GO with banded-solids....

(but then, I would not shoot too many of heavy-steel conventional solids in that skinny-rifled DR too....)


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Ripp
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #114664 - 17/09/08 10:41 PM

Quote:

OK Nitro:

You are stirring the pot, aren't you!?

So we have a fellow who offers 200 bucks to see any proof of a gun wrecked by mono bullets and gets no takers, another gun wrecked when shooting a Woodleigh and a few junkers pawned off to the unsuspecting that don't indicate proof of any particular bullet being the cassus belli of anything.

So now I'm as confused as ever.






++++


I would be willing to throw a couple hundred in as well--in the interest to laying this baby to bed once and for all...

What do you want to bet, no one will step forward with proof..

As I mentioned...I am on the fence on this one...simply because no one can come up with evidence..BUT, again..if the woodleighs work and work well, why risk screwing with your "prized" double...IMHO....

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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9.3x57
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: Ripp]
      #114669 - 17/09/08 11:37 PM

RIPP: The $200 offer I refered to was cited in one of the threads Nitro posted. The fellow that started it started with $100, got nobody and bumped the offer to $200. It has been sitting there for a long time and as far as I know, and based on the thread, no takers-uppers. Makes me think your money is safe.

Personally, I think the proofs if they come forward would make for an excellent "Sticky" in the Double Rifle section, and be a superb reference for double shooters and a "public service" of sorts.

To all: Nobody wants to guess what's the "Most Popular Mono Bullet"?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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450_366
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #114672 - 18/09/08 12:28 AM

Quote:

To all: Nobody wants to guess what's the "Most Popular Mono Bullet"?




Lead

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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9.3x57
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 450_366]
      #114673 - 18/09/08 12:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

To all: Nobody wants to guess what's the "Most Popular Mono Bullet"?




Lead




Nice try, but the original stated copper-alloy.

Anybody else to guess the specific bullet???

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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mickey
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #114677 - 18/09/08 01:49 AM

Here is my tale of woe regarding Barnes Bullets. A few years ago I loaded up 60 Barnes x bullets for my 9.3x74. Velocity was around 2250 to shoot to regulation.

Off to Africa to do some Zebra and Wildebeest culling.

Somewhere between 40 and 50 rounds shot and I noticed the rifle was loose. Since we were busy and I didn't have time to screw around I kept shooting until I had shot almost all of them.

The rifle was plainly off face at this point. I sent it back to Belgium to be repaired. Since then I have shot over 500 rounds of Woodleighs through it with no problems and the rifle is as tight as it was when I got it.

Not scientific but good enough for me. I approached Randy Brooks about it at SCI and got a shrug and a tough luck, must have been a bad batch etc.

My conclusion is, Why would anyone need to use anything other than Woodleighs? They work, they are designed for Double Rifles, they are available, they are as accurate as any and they do not do damage.

Why screw around with other products when you already know what the best product for the best results is?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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bwananelson
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: mickey]
      #114698 - 18/09/08 03:22 AM

9 in responce to your question i would say the BB.billions have been sold and to my knowledge no barrel damage.damn those daisy's are tough and i do believe they did make a double at one time.

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: mickey]
      #114707 - 18/09/08 05:11 AM

Quote:

Why would anyone need to use anything other than Woodleighs? They work, they are designed for Double Rifles, they are available, they are as accurate as any and they do not do damage. Why screw around with other products when you already know what the best product for the best results is?



You said it!


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9.3x57
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: mickey]
      #114710 - 18/09/08 05:44 AM

Quote:

and they do not do damage.




Two of the guns listed in these threads as damaged were shot using Woodleighs.

As for the most popular monometal bullet, bwananelson gets the prize for most creative.

But wrong...BB's are steel, copper washed.

The copper-alloy monolithic bullet I had in mind is the French service load for the Lebel rifle, the Balle D loading which was a solid bronze bullet of about 197 grain weight, of which many, many millions were fired through all sorts of rifles and machine guns. I do not know what the total production was but including service in the Great War I suspect the total number surpassed a billion. Remembering the Steyr mentioned in the thread, I have never heard of a case of osr showing up on the outside of any service rifle barrels as reported from any surplus collector. It would be interesting to go looking for it.

Most Berthier and Lebel and Hotchkiss barrels are thicker to be sure than the worrisome doubles reported, but some surprisingly thin indeed.

Smith and Smith reports service pressure of the Balle D loading to be "38,000" pounds {not sure exactly what this means; CUP, PSI, etc}.

Labbett & Meade in ".303 Inch" report recurring experiments and trials using various monometal bullets with the only mention of trouble being a reported increased barrel wear.

I do not know what the alloy of the bronze/brass bullets were, but the French bullet was not banded. Some British experimental bullets were.

BTW: the reported extrusion of a tit of lead out the butt-end of a Woodleigh means nothing other than the fact that metal was displaced. Obviously. In the case of a banded bullet, the metal from each band is displaced laterally to some degree and mostly longitudinally into the grooves. If too hard, such a method of displacement may not be sufficient and it would seem obvious that such a bullet could cause damage but nevertheless, I would think the damage if occuring must occur in the first very short trip of the bullet in the bore.

That's why I am having trouble seeing how osr could run the length of the barrel. Once engraved, the bullet, any bullet, is no longer exerting outward forces against the lands unless under the force of obturation which has already been stated not to occur with monometal bullets but does with lead core bullets. Or, rather, should. Poor setup in the bore can be a factor even of lead core bullets, particularly solid base soft points and occurs all the time. It can be seen readily on recovered undersize bullets.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #114732 - 18/09/08 10:42 AM

Spot-on, Rod. My feelings exactly.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #114736 - 18/09/08 12:41 PM

Quote:

RIPP: The $200 offer I refered to was cited in one of the threads Nitro posted. The fellow that started it started with $100, got nobody and bumped the offer to $200. It has been sitting there for a long time and as far as I know, and based on the thread, no takers-uppers. Makes me think your money is safe.






I knew that as the thread you mention was on the "active topics" portion once I started to read earlier today..and yeah..I agree..for all the hype..and $400 hanging out there..one would think a photo would be worth that...


Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Paul
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #114756 - 18/09/08 07:39 PM

Whatever the truth in this matter, 9ThreexFifty7, you've put up a very plausible argument. With all the scary stuff I read about reloading doubles in NE, I may tread the cautious path, just the same.

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93mouse
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #114761 - 18/09/08 08:38 PM

here is a 9,3 mm, 286 gr. TSX from my Merkel - with a closeup:





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Ripp
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 93mouse]
      #114765 - 18/09/08 10:18 PM

I don't see a whole lot of Taper effect when looking at that bullet..IMHO..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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9.3x57
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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: Ripp]
      #114771 - 18/09/08 11:23 PM

93: A good example of metal displacement to be sure. SOME does appear to have been pushed back along the bands and I would think such displacement could stress lands more than with a softskinned jacketed bullet {?} but that seems to be the reason such bullets are purposefully made slightly undersize. But the lion's share looks to have smeared back into the groove behind each band as noted above. And your barrel seems to have allowed the lateral expansion.

Of course, a thick-STEEL-jacketed bullet is going to cause stress, too, and thus the need for some sort of comparative test as Daryl called for in the first place. And Barnes says in the posted material that they have performed such a test using pressure as the standard by which to compare the two. Maybe pressure is not the only thing that should be examined and compared, but can we make sense of a statement that pressure has nothing to do with OSR? Such a statement would seem to be ridiculous.

The bronze French Balle D bullet is one example of a "hard" {or is it?} bullet used in massive quantities. Another example is various military AP rounds and some standard military steel core bullets with excessively thin lead envelopes under the steel or gilding metal jacket. Some such bullets have been noted as being hard on barrels but the damage is normally noted as increased rifling wear.

Could it be that the typical military barrel is just thick enough that it supports the rifling so as not to allow and expansion of the brrael beyond its springback capability and the doubles with osr have tubes so thin they lack this support?

Sounds plausible, but this nevertheless doesn't explain the existence {if it exists} of osr showing up on the whole length of the barrel unless bullets are not engraved, and the lands are merely "getting out of their way" the whole length of the bullets trip down the bore.

Can anyone show a pic of a recovered bullet that is NOT engraved?

This has been a fun mental exercise, sort of like twisting a Rubic's Cube.

Except nobody seems to have been able to line up the colors yet.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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