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CastOff
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Reged: 07/02/04
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Loc: West Coast
400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data
      #11273 - 10/03/04 03:28 AM

I have been running pressure & velocity trails with the 400 Holland & Holland, using a strain gauge system.

Preliminary data is very impressive, to say the least.

This appears to be a much more efficient case than the 416 Remington.

I have a set of reamers and much data on the 400 H&H.

If there is any interest, post a reply, and I will consider posting more details.

PS, I have been reading NitroExpress for some time, but this is my first attempt at posting. Looks like a good forum!


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mickey
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: CastOff]
      #11275 - 10/03/04 04:36 AM

I'm interested. I have been half way thinking of building one. Just to have something different. Let us know what you are doing.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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luv2safari
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: CastOff]
      #11282 - 10/03/04 07:12 AM

I've been watching for this cartridge since it was first announced...lay it on us, man!

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: CastOff]
      #11284 - 10/03/04 08:08 AM

Why not? Just post as you progress along. Do you have a suitable platform from which to launch this cartridge? Hopefully it is a CRF and not a pushfeed. Thanks.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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Dark_Helmet
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: 475Guy]
      #11300 - 10/03/04 11:45 AM

I assume its a .404???? the results will be interesting for sure, the 416rem is a pressure-mongor-deluxe...

the trick is can it effectively challenge the 416 Rigby, which is MUCH more chamber-friendly.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #11304 - 10/03/04 12:24 PM

No, it's not a 404, it's an H&H belted cartridge same length as the 375 but with .411 bore size. This is supposed to give the 416 Rem a run for its money. 400 gr going at 2300-2400. Of course, since it's an H&H in house project, all components are going to be very expensive.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: 475Guy]
      #11366 - 11/03/04 04:48 AM

C'mon guys knock off this pressure mongor thing about the 416 Remington, thats a croc of crap...It operates at the same level as a 270, 280, 30-06, 375, 300...I don't hear anyone flaming them..

An African gun scribe started that caca, and he was totally misinformed...probably loaded it to hot with the RSA available powders trying to compete with USA powders and that won't work...

I too have been interrested in the 400 H&H, but its nothing more than a 416 Rem. with a little less diameter of bullet and not even enough to justify itself as a challange to the 416 Rem and it will operate at even HIGHER pressure to get the same velocity as the 416 Rem simply because the bullet is smaller in diameter, but rest assured it will still operater at safe levels of pressure..

Any new round is interresting and I would like to have a 400 H&H, I like the sound of it and it will have great penitrative power with that long for caliber bullet. that is its claim to fame.


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Dark_Helmet
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: atkinson6]
      #11393 - 11/03/04 01:49 PM

interesting... I could have sworn I've seen pressure data with the 416 Rem a bunch higher than the Rigby... I'll try to find it and let you know what I come up with...

I'm all for being properly informed...

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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CastOff
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: atkinson6]
      #11394 - 11/03/04 01:54 PM

Some background info: Case water capacity of the 416 Rem is around 104 grains. Case water capacity of the 400 Holland & Holland runs from 98 to 102 grains, depending on the brass used: Norma brass is thicker, hence less capacity. I used 416 Rem brass and formed to 400 H&H in form dies I made. I also have a batch of Hornady cylindrical H&H brass, no headstamp, that I will try. Water capacity of the case formed from 416 Rem brass is right at 102 grains. So, for all practical purposes, case capacity is virtually identical for the 416 Rem and the 400 H&H. 416 Rem uses .416" dia bullets, 400 H&H uses .411" diameter bullets. The 416 Rem case, with the short neck, is deceiving at first glance as the base of the bullet is way down in the powder space. 400 H&H has the base of the bullet at the neck/shoulder junction, where it should be. The 400 H&H appears to be more efficient than the 416 Rem case, IMHO this is due to the 416 Rem having that bullet way down in the powder space. So, with all this said, below is the latest data I obtained on March 8, 2004, for the 400 H&H.

400 Holland & Holland Cartridge 8 March 2004
400 Grain Woodleigh Softnose Weld Core
CCI 250 Primer Hodgdon H414 Powder

Velocities are corrected to the muzzle



Velocity Pressure Energy

2134 ft/sec 35,000 psi 4045 ft/lbs

2160 ft/sec 36,900 psi 4145 ft/lbs

2237 ft/sec 39,900 psi 4447 ft/lbs

2310 ft/sec 41,600 psi 4739 ft/lbs

2323 ft/sec 42,600 psi 4794 ft/lbs

2346 ft/sec 44,500 psi 4891 ft/lbs

2374 ft/sec 48,400 psi 5005 ft/lbs

2402 ft/sec 49,400 psi 5127 ft/lbs



NOTES:

At 49,400 psi, we still have room for more velocity. 5127 ft/lbs ain't bad!!!

100 yard figures for the 2402 ft/sec muzzle velocity load are: 2187 ft/sec, 4248 ft/lbs.

I did not list the powder charge, as I will not post loading data on a public forum. Too many idiots out there in cyberland.

Cartridge Overall Length 3.500 inches.

Barrel: 26 Inch Krieger Cut Rifled, 0.403” bore, 0.411” groove diameter. 12 inch twist. CrMo.

I plan on cutting the barrel to 24 inches for more tests. However, I have a lingering thought of leaving it at 26 inches in the Westley Richards long barrel style.

The starting load at 35,000 psi closely duplicates the 450/400. Nice pressure, sould be OK in a double rifle.

And, I likely will run some fine tuning and bump the pressure up to 55,000 psi. Should give 2500 ft/sec or so. I may try a slightly faster powder, as the 2402 ft/sec load is slightly compressed.

The 400 H&H pressures/velocities are interesting when compared to the 416 Rem, which most folks run up to 60,000 or so PSI. Like I said, the 400 H&H appears to be a very efficient cartridge design.

And, yes, the test platform is CRF, it is a mint 98 Mauser. After some more trials, I will install NECG sights and stock the rifle in a classic British style stock with proper drop and cast off for the iron sights.

Below: 416 Rem on left, 400 H&H center, 404 Jeffery on right. The 400 H&H is a die formed case, not yet fire formed. Fire formed case has a more distinct shoulder angle, I will post a photo of fire formed cases when I have the next batch of test fire rounds loaded.







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475Guy
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: atkinson6]
      #11402 - 11/03/04 03:45 PM

Now, Now, Grumpy, I mean Grumpa Ray. I didn't say anything about YOUR 416 Rem being over-pressure, did I? Just repeating the H&H line as to feasibility of the round. I think there will be a small niche for it but I don't know how long the love-affair will last since there are so many old loves out there.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: CastOff]
      #11408 - 11/03/04 06:11 PM

This is all fine and good for H&H filling in their marketing plan, but I fail to see any advantage over the 416 Rem. Basically the same size case pushing a 400 gr. bullet at the same vlocity. It's a freaking miracle! Sorry.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.


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atkinson6
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: Will]
      #11457 - 13/03/04 07:43 AM

dasMafia,
Hey you needn't do that, simply because the 416 Rigby is loaded down by almost everyone to about 2350 to 2400 FPS and has very little pressure,,that cleared up keep in mind that its perfectly feasible to load the Rigby up to 2700 FPS and I know some guys that claim almost 2900 FPS at max pressure...It is simply a 416 Wby without a belt, but the Wby does operate at Max pressure, but it has never been a problem that I know off....

All I am sayint is this low pressure legitamate claim for the Rigby really has no practical importance...Most all modern guns operate at 55,000 to 60,000 PSI and without pressure problems..The African heat is really over rated IMO, Ariz, Texas and California will give them a run for the money on any given day...and these guns work there also.

My therory is use a grain less powder than your worked up near max load and you will never have pressure problems anywhere and won't lose more than 20 FPS normally....Once any rifles peaks out then additional powder shows very little increase in velocity, but does in pressure...


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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: atkinson6]
      #11464 - 13/03/04 08:38 AM

interesting... we get some doozy heat days up here too.... we're just smart enough to stay inside!!!!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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CastOff
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #11548 - 15/03/04 05:47 AM

Here is the fire formed version with 400 grain Woodleigh:



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luv2safari
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: CastOff]
      #11578 - 15/03/04 01:25 PM

Hmmmmm...

Now, all we need to do is push the shoulder forward and blow it out to 40 degrees.....

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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CastOff
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: luv2safari]
      #11580 - 15/03/04 01:42 PM

No, no, this one is pretty efficient as is, plus a lot of thought went into maximum muzzle velocity for the best use of the 400 grain Woodleigh bullets. IMHO a 40 degree shoulder has no place in a DGR.

Design criteria is: Efficient use of the bullet, 50,000 or less PSI, feeding to perfection, long grip of the neck on the bullet to take care of slip while under recoil, managable recoil in a 9-1/2 pound rifle, iron sight use under 200 yards, with a design use of 100 yards and under.

Shorten the neck, blow the shoulder out, put the base of the bullet way down in the powder space, and you will experience higher pressures for equal velocities. I think the cartridge is called a 416 Remington.

My suggestion for those needing more velocity: Go to a bigger case, keeping in mind what the velocities will do to bullet construction.


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DaveJames
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: CastOff]
      #11606 - 16/03/04 12:34 AM

Hmmm, is that you Mr. Ricks, sure looks like your photos over at AR, welcome any way, what other actions would this one work in?

--------------------
"I am always willing to learn,but not always willing to be taught."
Sir Winston Churchill


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CastOff
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: DaveJames]
      #11614 - 16/03/04 03:59 AM

Design cartridge length is 3.500". Will fit a Classic Post 64 M70, the Montana M99 long actions, Mark X Mauser with magazine box modifications, M98 Mauser with new bottom metal and rail/action work plus opening the magazine well to the rear. And of course the custom actions like Hein, Harre, Johannson, etc.

Depending on the bullet, and cannulure placement, etc., you can run the cartridge length up to 3.6" or 3.65" or so if the action and magazine are suitable. I am thinking of Northfork bullets here or some of the longer mono metal bullets.


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Dark_Helmet
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: CastOff]
      #12208 - 23/03/04 06:37 AM

lets say one was to build such a rifle... and didn't want to spend a fortune.

what action would be the best starting point.

and no, this is not a hypothetical... I'm going to do it.

I see the M70, M98 and MarkX mentioned... I'd be inclined to go with the M98 for cost, but don't want to sacrifice strength. also, was thinking that ~9.5-10lbs would be a decent empty weight with a decent recoil pad fitted???

what do you guys think... I really like the case shape for feeding. I will be using it to back-up my dad on a buff-hunt as well as maybe a Bison hunt in western Nebraska.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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CastOff
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #12212 - 23/03/04 07:21 AM

I would use a M70 Winchester Long action with magnum bolt face, or the Montana MRC M99 Long Action with magnum bolt face. Either would allow the cartridge to function with a minimum of alteration. Using a Mauser involves a good bit of machining and new bottom metal.

Although the design length of of the 400 H&H is 3.500 inches, a 3.600" magazine (M70) or a 3.65" magazine (MRC M99) lets you use the longer monometal bulets without seating deep and wasting powder capacity.

A No. 6 contour barrel, 24 inches long, and a walnut stock will put you into about 9-1/2 pounds rifle weight, without scope or mounts.

Put a recoil lug on the barrel, install a NECG Masterpiece front ramp with blade & hood, install a NECG Masterpiece adjustable rear sight, or a NECG Multi-blade island type rear sight, add a barrel band type front swivel lug, and you will have a nice classic rifle.

Be sure to design in enough cast off, drop at comb & heel, and pitch of butt in the stock for use of the iron sights. Install two cross bolts in the stock, and bed properly with high strength bedding compound. I also install a 6 inch long 4140 heat treated rod in the wrist of the stock to prevent failure or splitting. Also need stainless steel pillars in the stock to prevent crushing the wood.

If you want to scope the rifle, use Talley detachable mounts and a mid power scope, such as a 2-7X or a 1.5-5X Leupold.


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Dark_Helmet
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: CastOff]
      #12244 - 23/03/04 12:22 PM

slow down... I'm not doing the hard stuff. I just need to build a budget so that I can be over-budget in the end anyway...

any particularly good M70 to start with caliber-wise. I plan on buying a used/beat-up rifle, and canibalizing the parts I want.

my next question was for a reputable builder of such weapons with whom I might work.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #12250 - 23/03/04 01:03 PM

dasMafia

If I was to do a 400 H&H I would go Mauser.

Unless you are into cast bullets or paper patch bullets (the long neck) then the 400 H&H is all disavantages as compared to the 416 Remington.

At least with the 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs as compared to the 500 A Square, they both offer bigger case capacities than the 500 A Square.

But the 400 H&H needs to be in the right rifle otherwise it looses everything as the 416 Rem is a bigger case and easier to live with.

Mike




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CastOff
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: Mike375]
      #12301 - 24/03/04 03:24 AM

Hey Mike, sure, a Mauser is nice. I was just recommending the easiest and cheapest way. Case water capacities are the same, so the 416 Rem is not a bigger case.

Building on a Mauser, and doing a nice job, cost money. If the owner has the bucks, then go for it. I am building a couple on Mauser actions for my personal collection.

Mafia, you need a post 64 classic push feed (the new one) M70 action. Ideal is a 375 H&H length. You likely will not find a 375 H&H length unless you spend a bunch of money and buy a new one, then any standard long action Classic CRF M70 will do. With a standard long action , you will need to install the longer magazine box and follower, machine the rear bridge, re-drill and tap the rear bridge for .330" hole space rear scope mount, shorten the ejector and bolt stop. And open the bolt face if it is not already a magnum. Pay attention to the items in my previous posts.

Be very, very careful in barrel selection. No one but Krieger makes a proper .403 bore/.411 groove barrel, as far as I have found. I would not use a button rifled barrel, even if you find someone to make it. You need 12 inch twist. There are a few other cut rifled barrel makers that may take this project on, but I do not feel the quality of their barrels is up to a Krieger cut rifled.

Who to build the rifle? Big question. You need to find someone with experience with the 400 H&H cartridge, and who thoroughly understands big bore rifle construction. I have reamers, dies, all the specs, load data and performance, but I do not know of anyone else equipped with the tooling and information.


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Dark_Helmet
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: CastOff]
      #12318 - 24/03/04 07:49 AM

interesting...

this will be a "budget build" in the sense that it's function first. I have a pair of mausers already in '06 derivatives, but that's a bit simpler proposition.

assuming I could find a M70 Magnum action (say 300win or 338win) would that be a good starting point?

then its just barrel, stock and someone who knows how to put it all together right. I'm hoping that I can be in it for less than $2000 at the end.... although I will inevitably go over.

I'm not going to pay the entry fee for an M98 that can take this kind of abuse... just not happening...


and Mike... I don't do ANYTHING remington unless there is absolutely no other option.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: 400 Holland & Holland: Pressure & Velocity Data [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #12320 - 24/03/04 08:05 AM

second note... mike, this is the "right" case capacity for what I need.

my 8.5lb 375H&H hurts enough as it is... I don't even want to think about what "five-hundred" -anything feels like.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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