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tinkerModerator
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Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire
      #112669 - 27/08/08 09:25 AM

I've been fiddling with this for the past few weeks, I have barely been able to contain myself.
I'll post more information on it very soon.



Enjoy.




And by the way -- I've shot it.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Sarg
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112677 - 27/08/08 10:47 AM

Thats a cool gun Tinker and you make & take a dam fine photo !
just how hard is it to load for a Pinfire ?
As I have a line on a cheap 16 bore !


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1980E26
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112679 - 27/08/08 11:08 AM

Tinker,

Nice pumpkin ball shooter you have there!

Corbin


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: 1980E26]
      #112686 - 27/08/08 12:25 PM

Thanks Corbin!

Thanks to you too Sarg - with the photo, I tend to try to work with natural light as much as possible.

On loading for any breech-loading gun or rifle from this transitional period, it can be dead easy or it can be tricky.
The bulk of the work involved in getting a pinfire gun or rifle running is getting your cartridge cases together.
The first stop after a good look-see to make sure whatever you're looking at is safe to run is to do a chamber casting and bore slugging.
I slug from both ends, also I like to slug the chamber throats.
It's important to see clearly the relationship between the chamber walls and the bore/groove dimensions.
Note also that the rims of pinfire shotgun and bore rifle chambers are more petite than their central fire counterparts.
Almost every pinfire rifle and gun (not counting the crap handguns and revolving rifles) I've seen, handled, or heard of has taken the paper walled case.
I've seen the old catalog drawings of (later period) thin walled metallic cases, but I've only ever seen one example of a SxS pinfire anything that was actually
set up for thin cases.

And you're looking at it.

These chambers had me scratching my head, as I hadn't heard of extruded brass cartridge cases as early as 1862, the year this rifle was completed
- to the contrary I've had a short few guys in the know tell me straight out that it wasn't happening in 1862 and what I've seen in texts specific to Purdey's
history show bore rifles using paper cases - not thin metal - later down the road in 1865 and on.

The earliest coiled brass cases I've seen were of funky looking Boxer design kind of like the early Martini Henry stuff, but straight walled.

Here's the earliest piece I've seen, an Eley 450 1.33(?)" cartridge from 1865.
This photo poached from a cartridge collecting site (I forget exactly where) some time back.


Purdey had a very short 360 1-1/2" coiled foil Black Powder rifle cartridge, I'm just not sure when they first offered it. Mr David Maynard of Purdey's doesn't have any comments on these chambers either, besides the comment
"...there is no reliable literature on pin fire
cartridges of this period & few if any cartridges have survived..."
Still, I haven't ever seen or heard of coiled brass or foil pinfire anything, but I have seen catalog drawings from the transitional period and references in textbooks I have here of thin metallic pinfire cases,
but I don't know how early they appeared on the market.

Some sources say that Purdey purchased the Eley cartridge company right around 1830, if so there is a margin of 'anything's possible'.
To nudge that a little further, note the two cartridge cases in the photograph of the rifle.
They're made of titanium!
How's that for 'anything goes'!

I have a machine shop on the same lot as my home. That few hundred square feet of detached work space makes all the difference in the world.
Having the ability and resource to get into a fabrication job and leave it to sit and wait mid job-stream really makes this kind of thing possible.
The outer walls of those cases are tapered, and hand-fit for the chambers of the rifle. I hadn't called it 'mine' until after I fired it, and I didn't want there to be any possibility of my material choice contributing to a popped barrel if that were to happen -- and as you can see it didn't.

The balls in the photograph were thrown from a mould made since I took possession of the rifle too.
Couldn't find proper sized balls to save my life and I wanted the first couple of shots to be proper sized pure lead roundball.

If the 16b rifle you speak of somehow magically ends up taking easily sourced components you're in luck.
If not, you'll do well to go straight to the drawing board and build your components soup to nuts.

Once you have cases and bullets that fit the rifle, loading is easy. All you need to do then is drop a cap in there, set the firing pin, dump some powder - a card - some wads and lube - then a bullet and it's time to shoot.




--Tinker

**********
Edited to reflect the uncertainty of the Eley/Purdey deal circa 1830 -- thanks S.H.!
**********

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by tinker (30/08/08 10:50 AM)


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88MauSporter
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112784 - 28/08/08 11:19 AM

Very nice. I kick myself for my ignorance qnd passed by a two barrel set up fo 16 rifle and 16 smooth bore pinfire. I didn't know How to reload it until recently. OH WELL. Maybe another will come along.
Great photos. Looking forward to more.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #112828 - 28/08/08 08:46 PM

Tinker,

That is one nice rifle with a grand provenance. You made a wise decision in acquiring it. Please keep us posted on your progress with its loads and uses.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112874 - 29/08/08 05:45 AM

Tinker, my friend,

Thank you very much for posting these pictures here. Now, I do know that you have some more eye-popping information to post. I shall look forward to seeing it here whenever you feel like doing this.

Very best wishes and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #112921 - 29/08/08 04:19 PM

Mehul, Curl-


Yes, there is some very interesting provenance on this rifle.

To start, I should note that I've never before felt that I 'needed a Purdey'
I'd heard of the seductive handling and finish and accuracy and magic of the London Best,
but the aura just hadn't ever drawn me to pursue ownership of anything with the name.
For one thing, I've been perfectly happy with the high quality European arms I've found,
and for another, I've always realized that much of the innovation and development started
over on the Continent, and was brought over to England during the Golden Age and refined,
patented, and hearlded around the British Empire.

I'd have been fine to not have ever parked a Purdey in my vault.

With more time on my hands than I'd like during the recovery from knee surgery, I caught the
listing of this rifle, Purdey #6275, at the moment it hit the World Wide Web.
As you've come to notice, I tend to get excited about light sporting double rifles with damascus
barrels built around the pinfire system.
That's the kind of thing that gets a double take from me, note that I have a couple of sixteen
bore rifles of similar configuration.

There were some things about this one that really put the hook in me, one being that it was
a light twenty bore, another being that it had been built with set triggers for both barrels.
The latter feature was very unusual for a Purdey, Unsworth notes that a Purdey double rifle
from the period with any set trigger, let alone two of them, was all but unheard of.
The only exception he notes is a SxS muzzle loading rifle made the year before for "highly
experienced big game hunter, Sir Fancis Sykes".
I bit the hook.

Before the end of the night I'd composed and sent a piece of mail to the dealer.
Recanting some previous discussions we'd had in the past few years, I noted that I have
particular interest in the pinfire system and the sporting arms of the transitional period.
I briefly detailed a couple of other rifles of similar configuration that I'd brought out of
their hundred-plus year sleep, developing components, tools, and loads for and taking them
to the field.
I asked him to consider me a qualified buyer for the rifle and engaged in working a deal
with him on the neat little Purdey.
Within three or so weeks I had the rifle here in my hands, doing what I could to keep myself
from getting attatched to it. I'd asked for an extended evaluation period and was granted
some very reasonable terms. There would be a lot of work to do before I could fire it, and
I wanted to hear it bark before I called it mine.

As is noted above, I ended up finding the need to start from the ground up with this one.
One of the first things I did when I pulled the rifle from the case was attempt to stuff a
period 20b Pinfire case into the chambers.
No dice. The hull wouldn't fit. I also had a 24b new old stock case on hand and tried it too.
Again, no dice -- this time the case was too small for the chambers.
Hmmm...
I grabbed the caliper and did a quick check of the groove diameter at the muzzles, and found
relatively standard 20b grooves measuring ~.620"
The grooves were wide and shallow, taking a turn in about sixty inches.
I really expected one of my paper cases from the 1860's to chamber, but it wasn't happening.

I then took a telescoping gage and snapped it into the throats of the chambers. Then I did
the same thing to the leade end of the bores. What I found just didn't seem right. There
wasn't enough step to allow a groove sized bullet to fit into the mouth of a paper case.
From there I set up and slugged the bores and the throats, then cast the chambers.
What I got was clearly a space asking for thin case walls - just about .015" at the necks,
way too thin for a paper case and just about perfect for thin brass.

I went directly to Unsworth's Early Purdeys, straight back to the appendix specific to rifles.
I picked through every listed cartridge rifle in the list. The only mention to cartridge
type was of paper cases, nothing noting metallic cartridge construction.
It was then that I realized that this rifle was the 37th cartridge rifle that Purdey made.
This is one of very few to have been made with the Jones type double bite underlever system.
Purdey introduced their patent double bite (push forward snap action) the next year.

I spent the next few days rummaging through my old texts and what saved files I have from old
catalogs. I searched the web looking for dated evidence of thin metallic cases from as early
a date as the completion date of this rifle. I called around and spoke with a the usual suspects
one would think to call on this kind of topic. The resounding opinion was that in 1862 there
was no such thing as a thin walled metallic 20b pinfire cartridge case.
This rifle said otherwise.

I got in touch with David Maynard of Purdey's asking him to detail the process by which I
needed to follow in order to get a peek into what records there might be.
I noted the configuration of the rifle, with emphasis on the chambers, asking for whatever he
could find on the cartridge type specified on the leger.
What I got back from him didn't give me much on the chambers, but it did spark curiosities in
another area.
Here's a copy of Mr Maynard's comments.



Prince Who?

That piece of mail sent me into a three or four night tryst with google.
I was very surprised to find what I did...



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112923 - 29/08/08 04:30 PM

This taken from The Gentleman's Magazine, January 1857

This Mystery Prince was the son of Queen Victoria's beloved half-brother, Prince Charles of Leiningen.

Another hook in Tinker, this time in the gut.




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112926 - 29/08/08 04:48 PM

Queen Victoria and Prince Charles were very close.
She was crushed when he died.

This from Life of Her Most Gracious Majesty the Queen, by Sara Tylter




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112928 - 29/08/08 04:58 PM

Queen Victoria also had a special place in her heart for her nephew Earnest.
They too were very close, and spent a great deal of time together.
She fostered the 4th Prince of Leiningen's career in military service.
He went on to become the Admiral of Her Majesty's Royal British Navy!


This from William Loney's studies




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112930 - 29/08/08 05:06 PM

Here an account of Prince Leiningen at the Queen's side, in a very personal and vulnerable moment -- the death of her beloved husband, Prince Albert.

Earnest was there to sweep her up and carry her to her lounge as she wilted...


This from Victoria and Albert, by Richard Hough



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112932 - 29/08/08 05:27 PM

I have much, much more on the life and times of the 4th Prince of Leiningen, Ernst Leopold Victor Carl August Joseph Emich and his connection to Queen Victoria, including a scandalous tale of one of Her Majesty's yachts running a private ship down while crossing the Solent -- Both the Queen and Prince Earnest LVCAJE were aboard.
It seems that the amount of time they spent together was relatively well known, and at times would ruffle feathers.
Privilege is such a bitch.


This from Hansard's Parliamentary Debates, by Great Britain Parliment, 1876



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112933 - 29/08/08 05:40 PM

There's more, including accounts of the Prince hunting with Prince Albert and details of their friendship, stories of the great Leiningen hunting lodges and drives, and numerous further accounts of the tight family connection between Queen Victoria's First Family home and life and the 4th Prince of Leiningen.

There are also some cool notes of his interest in the development of the rifle during the quickly evolving transitional era.


Here a note from The friendships of Mary Russell Mitford, by Mary Russell Mitford, Alfred Guy Kingan L'Estrange, 1882




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112935 - 29/08/08 05:48 PM

It goes on and on.
There's a lot of period and modern text noting the Victorian Royal significance of the man this rifle was built for.
I've been very much consumed in the excavation of information on this man Earnest Leopold, the 4th Prince of Leiningen.


I should salute the efforts of the Google Book Search Project.
It's amazing how much information they've throw up on the web for research purposes. There are thousands of old out-of-print books that can be viewed and searched via high quality scanned image files.
In many cases you can download complete texts for your personal research projects.
It's really neat. I don't know how far I would have gotten in this effort without that resource.

Thanks Google!


I'll post more on the rifle itself later.
Time to put the machine down for a while and think about getting some sleep.
This recent study has cost me a few hours of shuteye.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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peter
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112945 - 29/08/08 09:40 PM

tinker

congrats with your prize, you are now considered an evil tempter along with the other gents here. and i must now look closer at the pinfires as well. thanks for this tread.
could you maybe do a show and tell with a few pic's of the way you make the cases ?

best regards

peter


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: peter]
      #112981 - 30/08/08 03:34 AM

Peter-

I will do that as soon as I can get out to the machine shop and gather the gear I've been using and making.
I have a swaging die in the lathe right now that I taper bored, then with it still in the chuck I've reformed some 20b Magtech brass down to the size and shape of these chambers.
The plan with that die is to contour and thread it to fit in to my reloading press and also to work with a set of hand tools that can fit in the rifle case.

It might be tomorrow or the next day before I get any images up here to help describe the process I'm taking on this project.

Thanks for the nice comment too!
Definitely do keep your eyes out for pinfire double rifles.
They're extremely rare, but for now they're still not too terribly expensive when you can find them.
The amount of work needed to get them running is nothing considering the satisfaction of using them out in the field.
This is very rewarding work for sure.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Sarg
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112987 - 30/08/08 08:15 AM

Tinker
Now don,t get upset here ! but I have seen a pinfire (in a magazine) that was set up to fire both centre fire & pinfire with the same hammers factory job !
Now how hard would it be to put 2 strikes - firing pins in a pinfire frame and use centre fire ammo ?
Just relax before you answer !


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: Sarg]
      #112990 - 30/08/08 10:33 AM

Sarg-

Nothing to get upset about. I've seen such guns from late in the transitional period.
I'd never do anything like that to a gun or rifle of great quality, as the value of the piece would get killed in the process.

Personally I'd prefer to run any surviving relic of the era as it was found. There's a lot to get from getting through all it takes to have a running pinfire long gun.

For your money, spend on a cheap central fire Belgian (or baikal or whatever).
Add long noses to the hammers and convert it to pinfire, keeping the central fire hardware.
I just don't see the merit of throwing the effort into hacking an original pinfire action with the only benefit present being able to shoot central fire cartridges.
The world is filthy with dirt cheap central fire long guns of all descriptions.
Something else to consider is that the fore-aft depth of pinfire action standing-breeches is typically shallower than those designed for the central fire system.
And if you aren't a good machinist it's going to cost quite a bit to have done - and you'll have something that *might* still be useful (consider proof) at the end of the job.

If what you want is an example of that moment in the transitional period - with both firing systems in place - just find an original one that's still intact.
It'll take a while to find one, and it'll cost a bit -- but you won't be throwing your money away.

It can be done.
I just don't see the point.
Wouldn't do it myself.
If the hermaphrodite action type is what you want, start with central fire and work back in time.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113028 - 31/08/08 03:54 AM

Tinker,

I shall repeat what I told you privately here - I only wish the rifle could speak! Just think of what tales it would have to tell! Hunts possibly in India and in Africa, of driven game hunts in Europe and on private estates in the UK, of the conversations that it would have overheard among the elite of the world and so on!

You are a man of fine taste and also a lucky devil, my friend!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #113110 - 31/08/08 07:38 PM

tinker

with my limited knowledge about this topic I would say it was made for a paper case with a heeled bullet. believe that purdey had have a very small case when they make a chamber reamer. nothing was standardize in this days and we will find also today that shotgun cartridges have a lot of different measurment. what was in 1862 with cases from france, belgium, germany or brittain.
the chamber is to small? not unusual for an early gun. I haver a simple 24 ga Colette/Liege hammer gun with very tight chambers, beliefe it was make before 1880. the gun makes absolut no problems with old paper rounds from Eley, RWS etc. also the new Fiocchi plastic will fit but Magtech 24 ga brass want.
I was thinking a second about a new chamber reamer and this will be history but decide to rework the brass.



look at the pic, I turn the brass over the rim ( believe 0,3mm) and size with a .577 snider die. so it is possible for the gun to take the brass.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: lancaster]
      #113147 - 01/09/08 03:11 AM

Lancaster-

Thanks for the comment and photograph.
Later today I will get some images up of the brass cases I've swaged and modified from Magtech 20b central fire brass.
I'll also try to get out to the machine shop and finish up my swaging die and get a couple images of it too.

Along with those I'll snap some shots of some variations of cases I've done for the sixteen bore rifles and my 'cup wad' (umbrella card for over the powder) punch and die set.

On Purdey's conical for the period, Unsworth's book The Early Purdeys features a series of photographs of a 20b SxS pinfire rifle from 1865. That rifle is shown with it's case and tooling, including a hollow-point bullet mould. Although there are a couple of images of the mould, there is no detail on the shape of the cavity, nor is there comment or image of a cast bullet or it's specifics (weight, diameter, exact configruation...)

I plan to write Mr Unsworth some time soon to tell him of the existence of this rifle and send him some images of it, also to ask if he can get me in touch with the owner of that other 20b Pinfire rifle so that I can either see the mould and/or get a couple of bullets thrown from it for examination.
That would be ideal.
Judging from images I've seen of other Purdey conicals from the period, I expect the bullet to have more of an acorn shape to the nose than the round 'cats head' design seen in our discussion on bore rifle and paradox cartridges.
We shall see.


Again, thanks for your input.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113274 - 02/09/08 03:38 AM

More to share...


First, my apologies for not getting images up here of the metal work I have going for this rifle. I'm currently taking six college courses and this weekend ended up having me at the desk, morning till past midnight.
I'm managing to fit mail calls in between study and course work, and this morning I got some more interesting fuel for this very entertaining research project.

Early on right after I received the rifle, I took off to the ranch to show off the new stick and discuss this chamber issue with our people out there. We poured through the cartridge collection and into the library to see if there was something obvious to discover. Although we didn't find any glaring neon arrows pointing in any particular direction, there was hope of outside help in the form of a comment in one of the books stating that it's author welcomed inquiry and data around cartridges not seen in his text. We happened to have his telephone number in the rolodex, so I took it and dialed away.

To my good fortune the call was taken with enthusiasm. The man I spoke with shared my excitement over the rifle and it's 'issue' but had no knowledge to share specific to these curious chambers. He did however mention a couple of other gentlemen who have similar depth of knowledge and whose libraries and areas of study would likely encompass this 'mid-transitional' period.

This morning while checking the mail I noticed a note from one of them, a retired British Armorer. We'd briefly discussed this and he'd made mention of a Robert Adams patent from 1860 that he felt might deserve a look. Today's mail contained a scan of the abbreviated patent including an image.



As this man noted, the date is right and Adams would have been familiar with Purdey.
Our Prince was a Naval Officer and closely followed the pace of development at the time. There are accounts in Unsworth's book of Purdey's knowledge of issues with paper cases separating heads when used in wet climates, dew or rain down the tubes or in through wicking at the firing pins could dampen the paper tube.
It would definitely make sense for this young Neptune-to-be to have knowledge of Adams' work and the sense to order this feature for his rifle.

Here from Greener's The Gun and it's Development accounts of other dabbling with metallic cases from the period, including note to work with metallic cartridge designs that Adams was doing prior to the 1860 patent.




So much for there being no evidence of thin metallic pinfire Bore Rifle cartridge cases in 1862.

Fun thoughts to ponder this Monday morning!





--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113378 - 02/09/08 11:42 PM

This beautiful rifle has obviously found the right home. Major congrats on the find and a fine job of research (and machining!). Just yummy. Color me envious!

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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: bpesteve]
      #113398 - 03/09/08 03:39 AM

Steve-

Thanks for the kind words.
I have to agree with you on the 'right home' comment!

Do you still have your 14b Richards double rifle?


--Tinker

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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113402 - 03/09/08 04:16 AM

No, that one (not a Westley) went down the road due to vertical dispersion between the two barrels. I've 'pair'ed down, so to speak, and have only one double left, an 1879 vintage Lancaster slide-and-drop oval bore in .450 3-1/4" BPE. Mostly I've been having fun with Sniders and flints, and from my experience last fall I can vouch for .600" round ball effectiveness - very satisfactory on game. That pinfire Purdey ought to be a peach!

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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: bpesteve]
      #113531 - 04/09/08 09:17 AM

Steve-

The rifle is indeed a sweet one.

So, in response to the request to show the cartridge case forming process, here's a quick snapshot of the forming die, and 20b Magtech brass from outta the box to fully formed and converted.



At left is the die, then a virgin piece of brass.
First step is with necks annealed, and first pass through the die.
Then the brass gets marked and cut, the primer pocket gets swaged down from inside then filled with silver, and as a result the base end of the brass is annealed when the silver job is quenched.
Then back to the swaging die for a pass up to the rim.

From there it's a trip to the lathe to turn the belt off and shape the rim, and thin the head of the case, then turned around to spot face what remains of the old primer pocket to make the interior face of the case head flat.

The firing pin holes are marked with the cases in the rifle, then hand drilled to the exact size of the hard silicon bronze wire.
That's followed with one last pass to the rim in the swaging die.

Voila!
The last process will be to tumble them, load them, and take them out the ranch for further testing.


--Tinker





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"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: bpesteve]
      #113766 - 06/09/08 07:37 PM

Steve-


In regard to your comment from that last post,

Quote:

from experience I can vouch for .600" round ball - very satisfactory on game




would you care to share the charge and velocity of your .600" roundball hunting load?

What game did you hit with it, at what range, and with what effect?



--Tinker

--------------------
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113781 - 07/09/08 12:00 AM

Why sure - 20 gauge flint rifle, .600 patched ball, 70 grs Swiss 1-1/2 Fg, estimated vel 1200 fps. I was nicely hidden behind an overturned tree stump and the fallow deer came to about 50 yards away peering suspiciously in my direction. At the shot he was fully face on. When he lifted his head the ball took him at the base of the throat and nearly made exit at his south end, traveling end-to-end through lungs, top of heart, diaphragm and most of the paunch. He tottered sideways for maybe half a step and keeled over with hardly a twitch. And no meat lost, either... ;-)



Edited by bpesteve (07/09/08 12:05 AM)


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: bpesteve]
      #113784 - 07/09/08 01:21 AM

My brother has taken 2 deer and 2 6' plus black bears with his .60 Jaeger using a weak 80gr. 2F. He uses a .595" ball with a .020" denim patch.

--------------------
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: bpesteve]
      #113788 - 07/09/08 02:07 AM

Steve-

Thanks for sharing the 'ballistic report' and the excellent photo from your hunt!

Great looking fallow deer, and what a fine account of what your flintlock is capable of.
At 1200fpsMV the ball hit the deer at about 1000fps, with about 740ft/lbs energy, enough to run end for end without blowing the animal (and your good meat!) to pieces.

Hopefully today I'll get a couple of hours in the machine shop to complete a couple more tools for the Purdey.
I want to have a range kit (suitable for carry in the case) that'll handle resizing, seating, and crimping for the next day of shooting.
Also, I need to finish up the set of cases I've been making from the Magtech 20b central fire brass.

Much to do, and much to distract me from getting this rifle running.

If you can find the time and the files, show us your Snider Sporter!
You have hunted with it too, haven't you..?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: DarylS]
      #113789 - 07/09/08 02:09 AM

Daryl-

Have y'all chronographed that load?

Quote:

My brother has taken deer using a weak 80gr...






--Tinker


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113794 - 07/09/08 02:46 AM

And before we get too carried away with distractions, that's a great set of machine work for cobbling short 20 ga pinfire hulls, nice going!

Re Sniders and bison. I was very fortunate to find this one



and sneak up on a very tasty small bison guided by Lee Hawes in SW Kansas



A 100 yard shot, 70 grs Swiss 1-1/2 Fg, a couple of 24 ga wonder wads and a 500 gr paper patched bullet, RMC turned brass. Broadside shot across top of heart, no bones hit, bullet made exit. One shot did the trick, though the bison did trot about 50 yds before hanging head and falling.


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: bpesteve]
      #113813 - 07/09/08 08:20 AM

Tinker - we did chrono that load, among others - seems to me it was down around 1,300fps. The rifle did much better (in my way of thinking) with a better hunting load of 120gr.2F. That one made 1,680fps, still a bit short of my preferred 1,800fps with small bores (20 bore and smaller) - heh, heh.

From 16's through 12's I'm happy with 1,600fps to 1,500fps. That takes a bunch more powder. Deer and black bear don't take much killing, but low velocities mean arched trajectories. I prefer to sight for 75 yards and have no holdover, even on deer, out to 125 yards, iwht the powder to take any of the large game to 150 yards or better. That takes 16 bore or more, in my opinion. Moose have been killed with less, but I prefer more.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113925 - 08/09/08 07:22 AM

I truely enjoyed this thread and subjects. The pinfire double rifled bore guns are so interesting. The history of the Prince is equally entertaining. This is what this forum is all about. keep more info flowing. Shooting results when available.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #113932 - 08/09/08 08:03 AM

Steve-

Beautiful rifle and congratulations on the hunt!
I'd seen a thread featuring that rifle elsewhere and wanted you to out it here for this community to see.
Quite a nice piece and I think you should develop a thread here on that particularly wonderful Snider.

Daryl-

Thanks for the comments and information.
As always I appreciate your perspective and experience.


Sporter-

Thanks for the kind words.
I too am enjoying this thread, and I'll be able to contribute more to it later in the week.
I'm slogging through six college courses and some hardware issues related to one of them (a C++ programming course) that seem to be related to Vista.
Today I'm buried to my chin in lab work and tests.
Hopefully I'll be able to share some targets by the week's end!



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #114625 - 17/09/08 08:34 AM

Time for another quick snapshot here...


Got my little 3yr old daughter out for her first day at school today - great stuff in itself!
As she'd only a couple hours of class and her school is on the way to the ranch, I stuffed the Purdey in the wagon and slipped out there after dropping her off with her teacher.

I had finished up the crimping die (flip side of the swaging die) and also made a shell holder for the special pinfire cases for this rifle in between being Dad and doing classwork these last couple of weeks, got the ball mould finished up and lapped to my satisfaction, and was prepared with six loaded pieces of ammunition.
I wanted to see how she'd do with a set of identically loaded rounds, made from identically produced components.

This target printed from an unsupported standing field hunting position at 31 yards (standing well behind the benches at our 25yd board), POI was center of the underside of the blank card.
The weather condition wouldn't permit use of the chronograph. (constantly changing light - and passing rain from patches of sunny sky - talk about earthquake weather !)





Note there are five holes.
The sixth (actually second) ball went into the target frame as a total set-trigger blunder on the way to the target.
I very much need to get more 'trigger-time' on this rifle.
Today's dash to the ranch was more of a test-run of the reloading components and the Swiss 1-1/2F powder.
The good news is that the cartridge cases and ball perform beautifully. Gas seal was excellent, consistency was excellent, extraction was a breeze, and the rifle handled and sounded great!

And it shoots!!!






--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #114626 - 17/09/08 10:08 AM

That's pretty cool, Tinker. God results for the first day at the range. Subsequent testing should tighten the groups somewhat and a bit of load developement, if needed, will tighten the end-result groups as well.

Gald everything went well and you are happy. Point of contention, though, the point of aim (POA) was a 6 o'clock centre of the card stock but the point of impact (POI) was just above the bottom surface and to the right of centre.

Good stuff.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: DarylS]
      #114628 - 17/09/08 10:33 AM

Daryl-


On POI/POA, those hits were shot over a marked 50yd sight leaf at 31 yards.
I should look at trajectory/sight height math (starting with an estimated 1250fpsMV) and see if the difference in 31 and 50 yards shows up on the graph the way it did on the target.

As for the right/left issue - more time with the rile will tell.
I've been to busy with making tools, components, and ammunition for this rifle, on top of other responsibilities to have had much time with it in the pocket of my shoulder.
That and as you said, more time in load development will likely make a difference too.

I have yet to settle with a wad column. What you see there isn't likely what I'll stick with. I need to make a proper cup wad punch and die, so I can run the 'dixie cup base' shaped milk carton over-powder cup shaped cards that I prefer.
Also I won't likely be settling with those wonderlube wonderwads (got them from track with some other stuff as to save a little bit of time) either. They work, but I want to run thicker felt and I want to run beeswax/crisco instead of wonderlube.

Time will tell, but in the meantime *even with what I have here* I can get out and hunt in the Northern California timber this winter, where the shots tend to be within 50 yards...




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #114630 - 17/09/08 10:55 AM

Tinker,

Congratulations! You have quite acceptable results even if there is no improvement to be had.

Wonderful rifle, and in the right hands.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: CptCurl]
      #114634 - 17/09/08 12:47 PM

Daryl-

Using this Round Ball Ballistics Calculator, I've found that with this rifle's combination of factors and an assumption of 1250fpsMV, with the sights (front sight measured, program appropriately adjusted) for a 50yd zero the POI should be .7" above the POA

Taking the vertical center of the group above and drawing a line across the card, my caliper reads .750" from the bottom edge of the card to said center-line.

It's good you made that comment, I wouldn't likely have bothered with running the trajectory map.
For what it's worth, (taking the distance from target and that position in flight via trajectory math) the group is just about dead nuts on vertical center to the 50yd leaf's POA!


Curl-

Thanks for the note.
I'm happy with the accuracy print from today's test-drive.
I wasn't going for record results.
Having only a little time to run the rifle and get back to collect my daughter from school, I call this a great success. The components all worked well together, the results were consistent, and the overall performance of the ammunition (handling, loading, extraction...) was better than I could ask for.

And I have to agree with you, the rifle has definitely found the most perfectly ideal home!!




--Tinker

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #114662 - 17/09/08 10:08 PM

tinker

congrats on a well shooting rifle, im green with envy and on the look out for a dbl rifle pinfire.

peter


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: peter]
      #114684 - 18/09/08 02:21 AM

Tinker - sounds as if you have everything under control and know what to do with your loads and wad columns. GREAT!

The accuracy you've got so far is good enough to smack a moose or elk, but I'd like to see more 'power' myself. Your load is equivalent to about an 80gr. 2F load in a .60 muzzleloading flintlock rifle.

I found the OxYoke wads gave great accuracy in my .50 Rolling block rifle, much better than any of the card wad combinations I tried. I don't know what it was about them, but it is difficult to argue with success. The circle wad is a good idea for centering the ball - good stuff.

--------------------
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"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: DarylS]
      #114795 - 19/09/08 02:33 AM

Daryl-

Thanks for the note and perspective.
The ideal wad column for this (and my other) bore rifle is being developed as 'the right hunting load'.

My intent is to have a load that I can load and forget about until the right time in the field - that'll be as good and consistent then (hours/days/weeks later) as it is the moment I load it.
Two things I consider are water seal and stability of the internal components - including the stability of the state of the powder, to keep it dry from water and wad lube.
The 'dixie cup' over powder cup-wad card is there to keepin anything from the greased/lubed wads from seeping down into the powder. That's what drives my interest in running the 'dixie cup' cards over powder. I make them shallow, and load them with the cup side facing the powder. From there I drizzle a tiny bit of beeswax around the edge of the card to seal the powder from the lubed wad column. I've found that a beeswax/crisco greas cookie does a good job too.

My interest in running tight felt wads impregnated with the crisco/beeswax will help this issue as well.

The ring/circle/'donut' wad isn't so much there to center the ball as I'm running ball right at (for alloy) and just over (for pure, not hardened) groove size. That special donut wad is to further gas seal.
Here's the premise behind my using it: Diameter is less than half circumference. The felt wads are right at groove diameter. Under pressure they 'wrap' around the backside of the ball, essentially losing diameter in the process.
The donut wads take up the space between the ass end of the ball and the circumference of the ball, the wad underneath them pushing it forward - and the ball squeezing them open against the bore wall - creating a greater lubed gas seal.

See what I'm getting at there?
The effort to make the little donut wads is nothing, consider another three to six seconds per load.
I haven't even bothered to 'just run one flat wad' without a card over powder or donut under ball.
I'll try that to see how it goes and get back to you on this later.


--Tinker

--------------------
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"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #116092 - 02/10/08 07:29 AM

I've been amazingly busy lately, very little time to handle the rifles, let alone shoot them.


I've had the trigger group and locks off to clean and inspect them, thought I'd post images here.


A pair of set triggers on a Purdey.
You won't likely see many more of these...




Here's the locks, complete with special bits to accomodate the set triggers.
One lock in full cock, the other in half-cock.





Enjoy!




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #116403 - 07/10/08 05:02 AM

Tinker,

Your Purdey guts are amazingly beautiful and pristine. Nobody has been in there rummaging around at all.


Great!
Curl

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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: CptCurl]
      #119234 - 20/11/08 05:12 PM

Not as pretty as the lockwork, but functionally important to the works of the loads, here's an image of the tools I use to make the cup-shaped OverPowder cards and an illustration of how the donut-shaped felt wads I use work with the roundball.





Arch punch cuts milk carton discs, then they go through the die that's resting on the arch punch via the brass punch.
I transfer them into the cases via the knurled ring - that makes getting the skirts into the case mouth easier.
Then goes a disc of lubed felt followed by one shaped like a donut - followed by the roundball.
The roundball shown there is on top of a donut which is on top of a disc.
See how the donut 'squishes' out under the pressure?
That's what happens in the bore. Great gas seal and great greased wiping of the bore.
That's backed up by one of the cup OP cards which are under constant pressure with the bore as well.
Great combination, ultra cheap to produce, and the components are available almost anywhere.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #119262 - 21/11/08 03:00 AM

I see your point about the cup wad - excellent idea and method. I tried it with donacona wads, but couldn't keep one togeher - break up easily. I suspect I'll have to drill them or punch them when they are held inside a tube or support of some form - easy enough.

Excellent photos by the way. I'm jealous - rifle as well as photos.:-)

Instead of the multi thin disk wads, how about the 1/8" card wads from Track (circle something)

Lube- don't know if I've mentioned this before here, but my favourite lube so far is 60:40 beeswax(good stuff) and vaseline. I know vaseline is a petrolium product, but it works well with black powder. I'm going to try the mix using Olive Oil instead of vaseline some time. I've just finished re-barreling my old '68 Sharps and chambered to .45/60. Will use 500gr.Spitzer and 525gr. Lyman RN. with 55 to 60gr. 1F to 3F. I expect I'll be able to get about 1,350fps with 500gr. and smokeless. That should handle deer, moose and bear. Rifle weighs 12lbs.3oz.
Bit heavy for an old guy liek me - NOT (heavy?)

BTW - there is a new black powder replacement called Black-? 209. The initial report is in the new Handloader magazine. It might just be the ticket for your rifle. if the fouling isn't as corrosive as Pyrodex, perhaps it will be good for our BP Ctg guns and pelters. By the sound of it, it'll be sold in normal cans, but only 1/2 pound per can. It is very bulky and light. For example a full load with shrot 340gr. bullet in a .45/70 was 42gr. and 405gr. was 38gr. for a slightly compressed load. This suggests around 50% to 60%. specific gravity of black powder. It is made in Ontario CDA, by the same outfit who makes IMR powders - apparently. It's marketed now by an outfit in Montana who make or market AA and Ramshot(?) powders

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: DarylS]
      #119264 - 21/11/08 03:42 AM

I would like to hear more about the new BP substitute. Any shooting experience? I have shot 577/.450 with 777 loadings and they are healthy. These were factory loaded by TenX. I have used 777 in pistol loads and in 12.7X44R. The Pistol loads are great. Clean, good velocity. The 12.7X44R is a full case up to a card wad and Hornady Great Plains 440 gr .50 bullet. Shoots well, with authority and pretty close to Sites in my SXS Combo. I don't have a chrongraph to check the speed.
Most BP substitutes I have read about are not very effective in cartridge loading. Pyrodex is OK, but I don't like the way it seems to vary load to load. And, I too worry of the corrosive action on my original bores.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #119266 - 21/11/08 04:02 AM

Daryl-

Thanks for your comments.
Those little cup-shaped OP cards are indeed great.
They go in the cases directly on the powder, with the open cup feature facing the powder. They hold together very well.
I haven't tried any commercial OP cards of any type, as the milk carton material has always worked for me. I hadn't ever wanted to pay for them or to have to wait for shipping - especially as the virtually free carton stock was already on hand and worked so well.

I'll give the vaseline/beeswax a try some time. The felt wads you see there are circle fly brand 20b wads that I had shipped with my Pedersoli Howdah pistol some time last year. I've run my own hand made felt wads and these - note though that the donut shaped one was cut here, I don't think circle fly offers donut wads. As a note, ballistic products is now offering half inch thick donut shaped felt wads in 12 bore size.
I called them and asked if they'd consider offering similar but in sixteen and twenty bore, but the youngster who answered the phone didn't seem to know what to say - too low on the food chain to speak to decisions of policy, and not interested in taking my request up the ladder.
T'hell with them if that's the way they handle requests. My lathe still works and I can put out any punch I need...

On the blackpowder substitute, I'm interested to see how it does in a pressure gun. The Swiss powder seems to work pretty well in this rifle. I'll be doing back to back tests between Swiss and Goex some time in the future with this one to see how it compares. I'm having the sense that Goex will do just as well.



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #119301 - 22/11/08 01:43 AM

I-too will be looking for more results with the new replacement powder. It probably won't be available up here (even though it's made here) for a year or more. It is supposed to be on the market right now in the States.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3954
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: DarylS]
      #255447 - 19/10/14 09:19 AM

Tinker
I must be ignorant here mate as I'm lost as to how do you then fit the primer/compound into the reformed case for the 'pin' to fire from your notes below?
Or does the pin crush the BP inside the case & setting off the main charge?
Better still I think you better step us thru it again for us uneducated sods!
Lovely double by the way & its also nice to know the history behind such pieces of working art!
Keep up the good work, its lovely to see these fine old arms brought back to life.
Kind regards
93x64mm


So, in response to the request to show the cartridge case forming process, here's a quick snapshot of the forming die, and 20b Magtech brass from outta the box to fully formed and converted.

At left is the die, then a virgin piece of brass.
First step is with necks annealed, and first pass through the die.
Then the brass gets marked and cut, the primer pocket gets swaged down from inside then filled with silver, and as a result the base end of the brass is annealed when the silver job is quenched.
Then back to the swaging die for a pass up to the rim.

From there it's a trip to the lathe to turn the belt off and shape the rim, and thin the head of the case, then turned around to spot face what remains of the old primer pocket to make the interior face of the case head flat.

The firing pin holes are marked with the cases in the rifle, then hand drilled to the exact size of the hard silicon bronze wire.
That's followed with one last pass to the rim in the swaging die.

Voila!
The last process will be to tumble them, load them, and take them out the ranch for further testing.


--Tinker


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: 93x64mm]
      #255452 - 19/10/14 01:23 PM

The internal squared or mabe slightly rounded end of the pin rests inside a percussion cap (I'd expect as easiest) which is resting against the bottom of the ctg. base, and is surrounded by black powder.

Crushing black power with the blow of a hammer under normal circumstances, will not ignite it. There must be flame or extreme heat for the BP to ignite.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: DarylS]
      #255453 - 19/10/14 01:41 PM

That's correct.
The primer pocket in the converted brass has been done away with.

Pin and cap are set first, powder thrown, card and wads placed then then ball is set.

Load, lock, and off to target.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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