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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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bpesteve
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113402 - 03/09/08 04:16 AM

No, that one (not a Westley) went down the road due to vertical dispersion between the two barrels. I've 'pair'ed down, so to speak, and have only one double left, an 1879 vintage Lancaster slide-and-drop oval bore in .450 3-1/4" BPE. Mostly I've been having fun with Sniders and flints, and from my experience last fall I can vouch for .600" round ball effectiveness - very satisfactory on game. That pinfire Purdey ought to be a peach!

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: bpesteve]
      #113531 - 04/09/08 09:17 AM

Steve-

The rifle is indeed a sweet one.

So, in response to the request to show the cartridge case forming process, here's a quick snapshot of the forming die, and 20b Magtech brass from outta the box to fully formed and converted.



At left is the die, then a virgin piece of brass.
First step is with necks annealed, and first pass through the die.
Then the brass gets marked and cut, the primer pocket gets swaged down from inside then filled with silver, and as a result the base end of the brass is annealed when the silver job is quenched.
Then back to the swaging die for a pass up to the rim.

From there it's a trip to the lathe to turn the belt off and shape the rim, and thin the head of the case, then turned around to spot face what remains of the old primer pocket to make the interior face of the case head flat.

The firing pin holes are marked with the cases in the rifle, then hand drilled to the exact size of the hard silicon bronze wire.
That's followed with one last pass to the rim in the swaging die.

Voila!
The last process will be to tumble them, load them, and take them out the ranch for further testing.


--Tinker





--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: bpesteve]
      #113766 - 06/09/08 07:37 PM

Steve-


In regard to your comment from that last post,

Quote:

from experience I can vouch for .600" round ball - very satisfactory on game



would you care to share the charge and velocity of your .600" roundball hunting load?

What game did you hit with it, at what range, and with what effect?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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bpesteve
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113781 - 07/09/08 12:00 AM

Why sure - 20 gauge flint rifle, .600 patched ball, 70 grs Swiss 1-1/2 Fg, estimated vel 1200 fps. I was nicely hidden behind an overturned tree stump and the fallow deer came to about 50 yards away peering suspiciously in my direction. At the shot he was fully face on. When he lifted his head the ball took him at the base of the throat and nearly made exit at his south end, traveling end-to-end through lungs, top of heart, diaphragm and most of the paunch. He tottered sideways for maybe half a step and keeled over with hardly a twitch. And no meat lost, either... ;-)



Edited by bpesteve (07/09/08 12:05 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: bpesteve]
      #113784 - 07/09/08 01:21 AM

My brother has taken 2 deer and 2 6' plus black bears with his .60 Jaeger using a weak 80gr. 2F. He uses a .595" ball with a .020" denim patch.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: bpesteve]
      #113788 - 07/09/08 02:07 AM

Steve-

Thanks for sharing the 'ballistic report' and the excellent photo from your hunt!

Great looking fallow deer, and what a fine account of what your flintlock is capable of.
At 1200fpsMV the ball hit the deer at about 1000fps, with about 740ft/lbs energy, enough to run end for end without blowing the animal (and your good meat!) to pieces.

Hopefully today I'll get a couple of hours in the machine shop to complete a couple more tools for the Purdey.
I want to have a range kit (suitable for carry in the case) that'll handle resizing, seating, and crimping for the next day of shooting.
Also, I need to finish up the set of cases I've been making from the Magtech 20b central fire brass.

Much to do, and much to distract me from getting this rifle running.

If you can find the time and the files, show us your Snider Sporter!
You have hunted with it too, haven't you..?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: DarylS]
      #113789 - 07/09/08 02:09 AM

Daryl-

Have y'all chronographed that load?

Quote:

My brother has taken deer using a weak 80gr...





--Tinker

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bpesteve
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113794 - 07/09/08 02:46 AM

And before we get too carried away with distractions, that's a great set of machine work for cobbling short 20 ga pinfire hulls, nice going!

Re Sniders and bison. I was very fortunate to find this one



and sneak up on a very tasty small bison guided by Lee Hawes in SW Kansas



A 100 yard shot, 70 grs Swiss 1-1/2 Fg, a couple of 24 ga wonder wads and a 500 gr paper patched bullet, RMC turned brass. Broadside shot across top of heart, no bones hit, bullet made exit. One shot did the trick, though the bison did trot about 50 yds before hanging head and falling.

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DarylS
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: bpesteve]
      #113813 - 07/09/08 08:20 AM

Tinker - we did chrono that load, among others - seems to me it was down around 1,300fps. The rifle did much better (in my way of thinking) with a better hunting load of 120gr.2F. That one made 1,680fps, still a bit short of my preferred 1,800fps with small bores (20 bore and smaller) - heh, heh.

From 16's through 12's I'm happy with 1,600fps to 1,500fps. That takes a bunch more powder. Deer and black bear don't take much killing, but low velocities mean arched trajectories. I prefer to sight for 75 yards and have no holdover, even on deer, out to 125 yards, iwht the powder to take any of the large game to 150 yards or better. That takes 16 bore or more, in my opinion. Moose have been killed with less, but I prefer more.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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88MauSporter
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113925 - 08/09/08 07:22 AM

I truely enjoyed this thread and subjects. The pinfire double rifled bore guns are so interesting. The history of the Prince is equally entertaining. This is what this forum is all about. keep more info flowing. Shooting results when available.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #113932 - 08/09/08 08:03 AM

Steve-

Beautiful rifle and congratulations on the hunt!
I'd seen a thread featuring that rifle elsewhere and wanted you to out it here for this community to see.
Quite a nice piece and I think you should develop a thread here on that particularly wonderful Snider.

Daryl-

Thanks for the comments and information.
As always I appreciate your perspective and experience.


Sporter-

Thanks for the kind words.
I too am enjoying this thread, and I'll be able to contribute more to it later in the week.
I'm slogging through six college courses and some hardware issues related to one of them (a C++ programming course) that seem to be related to Vista.
Today I'm buried to my chin in lab work and tests.
Hopefully I'll be able to share some targets by the week's end!



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #114625 - 17/09/08 08:34 AM

Time for another quick snapshot here...


Got my little 3yr old daughter out for her first day at school today - great stuff in itself!
As she'd only a couple hours of class and her school is on the way to the ranch, I stuffed the Purdey in the wagon and slipped out there after dropping her off with her teacher.

I had finished up the crimping die (flip side of the swaging die) and also made a shell holder for the special pinfire cases for this rifle in between being Dad and doing classwork these last couple of weeks, got the ball mould finished up and lapped to my satisfaction, and was prepared with six loaded pieces of ammunition.
I wanted to see how she'd do with a set of identically loaded rounds, made from identically produced components.

This target printed from an unsupported standing field hunting position at 31 yards (standing well behind the benches at our 25yd board), POI was center of the underside of the blank card.
The weather condition wouldn't permit use of the chronograph. (constantly changing light - and passing rain from patches of sunny sky - talk about earthquake weather !)





Note there are five holes.
The sixth (actually second) ball went into the target frame as a total set-trigger blunder on the way to the target.
I very much need to get more 'trigger-time' on this rifle.
Today's dash to the ranch was more of a test-run of the reloading components and the Swiss 1-1/2F powder.
The good news is that the cartridge cases and ball perform beautifully. Gas seal was excellent, consistency was excellent, extraction was a breeze, and the rifle handled and sounded great!

And it shoots!!!






--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #114626 - 17/09/08 10:08 AM

That's pretty cool, Tinker. God results for the first day at the range. Subsequent testing should tighten the groups somewhat and a bit of load developement, if needed, will tighten the end-result groups as well.

Gald everything went well and you are happy. Point of contention, though, the point of aim (POA) was a 6 o'clock centre of the card stock but the point of impact (POI) was just above the bottom surface and to the right of centre.

Good stuff.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: DarylS]
      #114628 - 17/09/08 10:33 AM

Daryl-


On POI/POA, those hits were shot over a marked 50yd sight leaf at 31 yards.
I should look at trajectory/sight height math (starting with an estimated 1250fpsMV) and see if the difference in 31 and 50 yards shows up on the graph the way it did on the target.

As for the right/left issue - more time with the rile will tell.
I've been to busy with making tools, components, and ammunition for this rifle, on top of other responsibilities to have had much time with it in the pocket of my shoulder.
That and as you said, more time in load development will likely make a difference too.

I have yet to settle with a wad column. What you see there isn't likely what I'll stick with. I need to make a proper cup wad punch and die, so I can run the 'dixie cup base' shaped milk carton over-powder cup shaped cards that I prefer.
Also I won't likely be settling with those wonderlube wonderwads (got them from track with some other stuff as to save a little bit of time) either. They work, but I want to run thicker felt and I want to run beeswax/crisco instead of wonderlube.

Time will tell, but in the meantime *even with what I have here* I can get out and hunt in the Northern California timber this winter, where the shots tend to be within 50 yards...




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #114630 - 17/09/08 10:55 AM

Tinker,

Congratulations! You have quite acceptable results even if there is no improvement to be had.

Wonderful rifle, and in the right hands.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: CptCurl]
      #114634 - 17/09/08 12:47 PM

Daryl-

Using this Round Ball Ballistics Calculator, I've found that with this rifle's combination of factors and an assumption of 1250fpsMV, with the sights (front sight measured, program appropriately adjusted) for a 50yd zero the POI should be .7" above the POA

Taking the vertical center of the group above and drawing a line across the card, my caliper reads .750" from the bottom edge of the card to said center-line.

It's good you made that comment, I wouldn't likely have bothered with running the trajectory map.
For what it's worth, (taking the distance from target and that position in flight via trajectory math) the group is just about dead nuts on vertical center to the 50yd leaf's POA!


Curl-

Thanks for the note.
I'm happy with the accuracy print from today's test-drive.
I wasn't going for record results.
Having only a little time to run the rifle and get back to collect my daughter from school, I call this a great success. The components all worked well together, the results were consistent, and the overall performance of the ammunition (handling, loading, extraction...) was better than I could ask for.

And I have to agree with you, the rifle has definitely found the most perfectly ideal home!!




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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peter
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #114662 - 17/09/08 10:08 PM

tinker

congrats on a well shooting rifle, im green with envy and on the look out for a dbl rifle pinfire.

peter

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DarylS
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: peter]
      #114684 - 18/09/08 02:21 AM

Tinker - sounds as if you have everything under control and know what to do with your loads and wad columns. GREAT!

The accuracy you've got so far is good enough to smack a moose or elk, but I'd like to see more 'power' myself. Your load is equivalent to about an 80gr. 2F load in a .60 muzzleloading flintlock rifle.

I found the OxYoke wads gave great accuracy in my .50 Rolling block rifle, much better than any of the card wad combinations I tried. I don't know what it was about them, but it is difficult to argue with success. The circle wad is a good idea for centering the ball - good stuff.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: DarylS]
      #114795 - 19/09/08 02:33 AM

Daryl-

Thanks for the note and perspective.
The ideal wad column for this (and my other) bore rifle is being developed as 'the right hunting load'.

My intent is to have a load that I can load and forget about until the right time in the field - that'll be as good and consistent then (hours/days/weeks later) as it is the moment I load it.
Two things I consider are water seal and stability of the internal components - including the stability of the state of the powder, to keep it dry from water and wad lube.
The 'dixie cup' over powder cup-wad card is there to keepin anything from the greased/lubed wads from seeping down into the powder. That's what drives my interest in running the 'dixie cup' cards over powder. I make them shallow, and load them with the cup side facing the powder. From there I drizzle a tiny bit of beeswax around the edge of the card to seal the powder from the lubed wad column. I've found that a beeswax/crisco greas cookie does a good job too.

My interest in running tight felt wads impregnated with the crisco/beeswax will help this issue as well.

The ring/circle/'donut' wad isn't so much there to center the ball as I'm running ball right at (for alloy) and just over (for pure, not hardened) groove size. That special donut wad is to further gas seal.
Here's the premise behind my using it: Diameter is less than half circumference. The felt wads are right at groove diameter. Under pressure they 'wrap' around the backside of the ball, essentially losing diameter in the process.
The donut wads take up the space between the ass end of the ball and the circumference of the ball, the wad underneath them pushing it forward - and the ball squeezing them open against the bore wall - creating a greater lubed gas seal.

See what I'm getting at there?
The effort to make the little donut wads is nothing, consider another three to six seconds per load.
I haven't even bothered to 'just run one flat wad' without a card over powder or donut under ball.
I'll try that to see how it goes and get back to you on this later.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #116092 - 02/10/08 07:29 AM

I've been amazingly busy lately, very little time to handle the rifles, let alone shoot them.


I've had the trigger group and locks off to clean and inspect them, thought I'd post images here.


A pair of set triggers on a Purdey.
You won't likely see many more of these...




Here's the locks, complete with special bits to accomodate the set triggers.
One lock in full cock, the other in half-cock.





Enjoy!




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #116403 - 07/10/08 05:02 AM

Tinker,

Your Purdey guts are amazingly beautiful and pristine. Nobody has been in there rummaging around at all.


Great!
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: CptCurl]
      #119234 - 20/11/08 05:12 PM

Not as pretty as the lockwork, but functionally important to the works of the loads, here's an image of the tools I use to make the cup-shaped OverPowder cards and an illustration of how the donut-shaped felt wads I use work with the roundball.





Arch punch cuts milk carton discs, then they go through the die that's resting on the arch punch via the brass punch.
I transfer them into the cases via the knurled ring - that makes getting the skirts into the case mouth easier.
Then goes a disc of lubed felt followed by one shaped like a donut - followed by the roundball.
The roundball shown there is on top of a donut which is on top of a disc.
See how the donut 'squishes' out under the pressure?
That's what happens in the bore. Great gas seal and great greased wiping of the bore.
That's backed up by one of the cup OP cards which are under constant pressure with the bore as well.
Great combination, ultra cheap to produce, and the components are available almost anywhere.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #119262 - 21/11/08 03:00 AM

I see your point about the cup wad - excellent idea and method. I tried it with donacona wads, but couldn't keep one togeher - break up easily. I suspect I'll have to drill them or punch them when they are held inside a tube or support of some form - easy enough.

Excellent photos by the way. I'm jealous - rifle as well as photos.:-)

Instead of the multi thin disk wads, how about the 1/8" card wads from Track (circle something)

Lube- don't know if I've mentioned this before here, but my favourite lube so far is 60:40 beeswax(good stuff) and vaseline. I know vaseline is a petrolium product, but it works well with black powder. I'm going to try the mix using Olive Oil instead of vaseline some time. I've just finished re-barreling my old '68 Sharps and chambered to .45/60. Will use 500gr.Spitzer and 525gr. Lyman RN. with 55 to 60gr. 1F to 3F. I expect I'll be able to get about 1,350fps with 500gr. and smokeless. That should handle deer, moose and bear. Rifle weighs 12lbs.3oz.
Bit heavy for an old guy liek me - NOT (heavy?)

BTW - there is a new black powder replacement called Black-? 209. The initial report is in the new Handloader magazine. It might just be the ticket for your rifle. if the fouling isn't as corrosive as Pyrodex, perhaps it will be good for our BP Ctg guns and pelters. By the sound of it, it'll be sold in normal cans, but only 1/2 pound per can. It is very bulky and light. For example a full load with shrot 340gr. bullet in a .45/70 was 42gr. and 405gr. was 38gr. for a slightly compressed load. This suggests around 50% to 60%. specific gravity of black powder. It is made in Ontario CDA, by the same outfit who makes IMR powders - apparently. It's marketed now by an outfit in Montana who make or market AA and Ramshot(?) powders

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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88MauSporter
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: DarylS]
      #119264 - 21/11/08 03:42 AM

I would like to hear more about the new BP substitute. Any shooting experience? I have shot 577/.450 with 777 loadings and they are healthy. These were factory loaded by TenX. I have used 777 in pistol loads and in 12.7X44R. The Pistol loads are great. Clean, good velocity. The 12.7X44R is a full case up to a card wad and Hornady Great Plains 440 gr .50 bullet. Shoots well, with authority and pretty close to Sites in my SXS Combo. I don't have a chrongraph to check the speed.
Most BP substitutes I have read about are not very effective in cartridge loading. Pyrodex is OK, but I don't like the way it seems to vary load to load. And, I too worry of the corrosive action on my original bores.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #119266 - 21/11/08 04:02 AM

Daryl-

Thanks for your comments.
Those little cup-shaped OP cards are indeed great.
They go in the cases directly on the powder, with the open cup feature facing the powder. They hold together very well.
I haven't tried any commercial OP cards of any type, as the milk carton material has always worked for me. I hadn't ever wanted to pay for them or to have to wait for shipping - especially as the virtually free carton stock was already on hand and worked so well.

I'll give the vaseline/beeswax a try some time. The felt wads you see there are circle fly brand 20b wads that I had shipped with my Pedersoli Howdah pistol some time last year. I've run my own hand made felt wads and these - note though that the donut shaped one was cut here, I don't think circle fly offers donut wads. As a note, ballistic products is now offering half inch thick donut shaped felt wads in 12 bore size.
I called them and asked if they'd consider offering similar but in sixteen and twenty bore, but the youngster who answered the phone didn't seem to know what to say - too low on the food chain to speak to decisions of policy, and not interested in taking my request up the ladder.
T'hell with them if that's the way they handle requests. My lathe still works and I can put out any punch I need...

On the blackpowder substitute, I'm interested to see how it does in a pressure gun. The Swiss powder seems to work pretty well in this rifle. I'll be doing back to back tests between Swiss and Goex some time in the future with this one to see how it compares. I'm having the sense that Goex will do just as well.



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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