Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire
      #112669 - 27/08/08 09:25 AM

I've been fiddling with this for the past few weeks, I have barely been able to contain myself.
I'll post more information on it very soon.



Enjoy.




And by the way -- I've shot it.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Sarg
.400 member


Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112677 - 27/08/08 10:47 AM

Thats a cool gun Tinker and you make & take a dam fine photo !
just how hard is it to load for a Pinfire ?
As I have a line on a cheap 16 bore !


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
1980E26
.300 member


Reged: 03/05/05
Posts: 195
Loc: USA
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112679 - 27/08/08 11:08 AM

Tinker,

Nice pumpkin ball shooter you have there!

Corbin


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: 1980E26]
      #112686 - 27/08/08 12:25 PM

Thanks Corbin!

Thanks to you too Sarg - with the photo, I tend to try to work with natural light as much as possible.

On loading for any breech-loading gun or rifle from this transitional period, it can be dead easy or it can be tricky.
The bulk of the work involved in getting a pinfire gun or rifle running is getting your cartridge cases together.
The first stop after a good look-see to make sure whatever you're looking at is safe to run is to do a chamber casting and bore slugging.
I slug from both ends, also I like to slug the chamber throats.
It's important to see clearly the relationship between the chamber walls and the bore/groove dimensions.
Note also that the rims of pinfire shotgun and bore rifle chambers are more petite than their central fire counterparts.
Almost every pinfire rifle and gun (not counting the crap handguns and revolving rifles) I've seen, handled, or heard of has taken the paper walled case.
I've seen the old catalog drawings of (later period) thin walled metallic cases, but I've only ever seen one example of a SxS pinfire anything that was actually
set up for thin cases.

And you're looking at it.

These chambers had me scratching my head, as I hadn't heard of extruded brass cartridge cases as early as 1862, the year this rifle was completed
- to the contrary I've had a short few guys in the know tell me straight out that it wasn't happening in 1862 and what I've seen in texts specific to Purdey's
history show bore rifles using paper cases - not thin metal - later down the road in 1865 and on.

The earliest coiled brass cases I've seen were of funky looking Boxer design kind of like the early Martini Henry stuff, but straight walled.

Here's the earliest piece I've seen, an Eley 450 1.33(?)" cartridge from 1865.
This photo poached from a cartridge collecting site (I forget exactly where) some time back.


Purdey had a very short 360 1-1/2" coiled foil Black Powder rifle cartridge, I'm just not sure when they first offered it. Mr David Maynard of Purdey's doesn't have any comments on these chambers either, besides the comment
"...there is no reliable literature on pin fire
cartridges of this period & few if any cartridges have survived..."
Still, I haven't ever seen or heard of coiled brass or foil pinfire anything, but I have seen catalog drawings from the transitional period and references in textbooks I have here of thin metallic pinfire cases,
but I don't know how early they appeared on the market.

Some sources say that Purdey purchased the Eley cartridge company right around 1830, if so there is a margin of 'anything's possible'.
To nudge that a little further, note the two cartridge cases in the photograph of the rifle.
They're made of titanium!
How's that for 'anything goes'!

I have a machine shop on the same lot as my home. That few hundred square feet of detached work space makes all the difference in the world.
Having the ability and resource to get into a fabrication job and leave it to sit and wait mid job-stream really makes this kind of thing possible.
The outer walls of those cases are tapered, and hand-fit for the chambers of the rifle. I hadn't called it 'mine' until after I fired it, and I didn't want there to be any possibility of my material choice contributing to a popped barrel if that were to happen -- and as you can see it didn't.

The balls in the photograph were thrown from a mould made since I took possession of the rifle too.
Couldn't find proper sized balls to save my life and I wanted the first couple of shots to be proper sized pure lead roundball.

If the 16b rifle you speak of somehow magically ends up taking easily sourced components you're in luck.
If not, you'll do well to go straight to the drawing board and build your components soup to nuts.

Once you have cases and bullets that fit the rifle, loading is easy. All you need to do then is drop a cap in there, set the firing pin, dump some powder - a card - some wads and lube - then a bullet and it's time to shoot.




--Tinker

**********
Edited to reflect the uncertainty of the Eley/Purdey deal circa 1830 -- thanks S.H.!
**********

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by tinker (30/08/08 10:50 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112784 - 28/08/08 11:19 AM

Very nice. I kick myself for my ignorance qnd passed by a two barrel set up fo 16 rifle and 16 smooth bore pinfire. I didn't know How to reload it until recently. OH WELL. Maybe another will come along.
Great photos. Looking forward to more.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5271
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #112828 - 28/08/08 08:46 PM

Tinker,

That is one nice rifle with a grand provenance. You made a wise decision in acquiring it. Please keep us posted on your progress with its loads and uses.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112874 - 29/08/08 05:45 AM

Tinker, my friend,

Thank you very much for posting these pictures here. Now, I do know that you have some more eye-popping information to post. I shall look forward to seeing it here whenever you feel like doing this.

Very best wishes and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #112921 - 29/08/08 04:19 PM

Mehul, Curl-


Yes, there is some very interesting provenance on this rifle.

To start, I should note that I've never before felt that I 'needed a Purdey'
I'd heard of the seductive handling and finish and accuracy and magic of the London Best,
but the aura just hadn't ever drawn me to pursue ownership of anything with the name.
For one thing, I've been perfectly happy with the high quality European arms I've found,
and for another, I've always realized that much of the innovation and development started
over on the Continent, and was brought over to England during the Golden Age and refined,
patented, and hearlded around the British Empire.

I'd have been fine to not have ever parked a Purdey in my vault.

With more time on my hands than I'd like during the recovery from knee surgery, I caught the
listing of this rifle, Purdey #6275, at the moment it hit the World Wide Web.
As you've come to notice, I tend to get excited about light sporting double rifles with damascus
barrels built around the pinfire system.
That's the kind of thing that gets a double take from me, note that I have a couple of sixteen
bore rifles of similar configuration.

There were some things about this one that really put the hook in me, one being that it was
a light twenty bore, another being that it had been built with set triggers for both barrels.
The latter feature was very unusual for a Purdey, Unsworth notes that a Purdey double rifle
from the period with any set trigger, let alone two of them, was all but unheard of.
The only exception he notes is a SxS muzzle loading rifle made the year before for "highly
experienced big game hunter, Sir Fancis Sykes".
I bit the hook.

Before the end of the night I'd composed and sent a piece of mail to the dealer.
Recanting some previous discussions we'd had in the past few years, I noted that I have
particular interest in the pinfire system and the sporting arms of the transitional period.
I briefly detailed a couple of other rifles of similar configuration that I'd brought out of
their hundred-plus year sleep, developing components, tools, and loads for and taking them
to the field.
I asked him to consider me a qualified buyer for the rifle and engaged in working a deal
with him on the neat little Purdey.
Within three or so weeks I had the rifle here in my hands, doing what I could to keep myself
from getting attatched to it. I'd asked for an extended evaluation period and was granted
some very reasonable terms. There would be a lot of work to do before I could fire it, and
I wanted to hear it bark before I called it mine.

As is noted above, I ended up finding the need to start from the ground up with this one.
One of the first things I did when I pulled the rifle from the case was attempt to stuff a
period 20b Pinfire case into the chambers.
No dice. The hull wouldn't fit. I also had a 24b new old stock case on hand and tried it too.
Again, no dice -- this time the case was too small for the chambers.
Hmmm...
I grabbed the caliper and did a quick check of the groove diameter at the muzzles, and found
relatively standard 20b grooves measuring ~.620"
The grooves were wide and shallow, taking a turn in about sixty inches.
I really expected one of my paper cases from the 1860's to chamber, but it wasn't happening.

I then took a telescoping gage and snapped it into the throats of the chambers. Then I did
the same thing to the leade end of the bores. What I found just didn't seem right. There
wasn't enough step to allow a groove sized bullet to fit into the mouth of a paper case.
From there I set up and slugged the bores and the throats, then cast the chambers.
What I got was clearly a space asking for thin case walls - just about .015" at the necks,
way too thin for a paper case and just about perfect for thin brass.

I went directly to Unsworth's Early Purdeys, straight back to the appendix specific to rifles.
I picked through every listed cartridge rifle in the list. The only mention to cartridge
type was of paper cases, nothing noting metallic cartridge construction.
It was then that I realized that this rifle was the 37th cartridge rifle that Purdey made.
This is one of very few to have been made with the Jones type double bite underlever system.
Purdey introduced their patent double bite (push forward snap action) the next year.

I spent the next few days rummaging through my old texts and what saved files I have from old
catalogs. I searched the web looking for dated evidence of thin metallic cases from as early
a date as the completion date of this rifle. I called around and spoke with a the usual suspects
one would think to call on this kind of topic. The resounding opinion was that in 1862 there
was no such thing as a thin walled metallic 20b pinfire cartridge case.
This rifle said otherwise.

I got in touch with David Maynard of Purdey's asking him to detail the process by which I
needed to follow in order to get a peek into what records there might be.
I noted the configuration of the rifle, with emphasis on the chambers, asking for whatever he
could find on the cartridge type specified on the leger.
What I got back from him didn't give me much on the chambers, but it did spark curiosities in
another area.
Here's a copy of Mr Maynard's comments.



Prince Who?

That piece of mail sent me into a three or four night tryst with google.
I was very surprised to find what I did...



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112923 - 29/08/08 04:30 PM

This taken from The Gentleman's Magazine, January 1857

This Mystery Prince was the son of Queen Victoria's beloved half-brother, Prince Charles of Leiningen.

Another hook in Tinker, this time in the gut.




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112926 - 29/08/08 04:48 PM

Queen Victoria and Prince Charles were very close.
She was crushed when he died.

This from Life of Her Most Gracious Majesty the Queen, by Sara Tylter




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112928 - 29/08/08 04:58 PM

Queen Victoria also had a special place in her heart for her nephew Earnest.
They too were very close, and spent a great deal of time together.
She fostered the 4th Prince of Leiningen's career in military service.
He went on to become the Admiral of Her Majesty's Royal British Navy!


This from William Loney's studies




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112930 - 29/08/08 05:06 PM

Here an account of Prince Leiningen at the Queen's side, in a very personal and vulnerable moment -- the death of her beloved husband, Prince Albert.

Earnest was there to sweep her up and carry her to her lounge as she wilted...


This from Victoria and Albert, by Richard Hough



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112932 - 29/08/08 05:27 PM

I have much, much more on the life and times of the 4th Prince of Leiningen, Ernst Leopold Victor Carl August Joseph Emich and his connection to Queen Victoria, including a scandalous tale of one of Her Majesty's yachts running a private ship down while crossing the Solent -- Both the Queen and Prince Earnest LVCAJE were aboard.
It seems that the amount of time they spent together was relatively well known, and at times would ruffle feathers.
Privilege is such a bitch.


This from Hansard's Parliamentary Debates, by Great Britain Parliment, 1876



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112933 - 29/08/08 05:40 PM

There's more, including accounts of the Prince hunting with Prince Albert and details of their friendship, stories of the great Leiningen hunting lodges and drives, and numerous further accounts of the tight family connection between Queen Victoria's First Family home and life and the 4th Prince of Leiningen.

There are also some cool notes of his interest in the development of the rifle during the quickly evolving transitional era.


Here a note from The friendships of Mary Russell Mitford, by Mary Russell Mitford, Alfred Guy Kingan L'Estrange, 1882




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112935 - 29/08/08 05:48 PM

It goes on and on.
There's a lot of period and modern text noting the Victorian Royal significance of the man this rifle was built for.
I've been very much consumed in the excavation of information on this man Earnest Leopold, the 4th Prince of Leiningen.


I should salute the efforts of the Google Book Search Project.
It's amazing how much information they've throw up on the web for research purposes. There are thousands of old out-of-print books that can be viewed and searched via high quality scanned image files.
In many cases you can download complete texts for your personal research projects.
It's really neat. I don't know how far I would have gotten in this effort without that resource.

Thanks Google!


I'll post more on the rifle itself later.
Time to put the machine down for a while and think about getting some sleep.
This recent study has cost me a few hours of shuteye.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
peter
removed


Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112945 - 29/08/08 09:40 PM

tinker

congrats with your prize, you are now considered an evil tempter along with the other gents here. and i must now look closer at the pinfires as well. thanks for this tread.
could you maybe do a show and tell with a few pic's of the way you make the cases ?

best regards

peter


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: peter]
      #112981 - 30/08/08 03:34 AM

Peter-

I will do that as soon as I can get out to the machine shop and gather the gear I've been using and making.
I have a swaging die in the lathe right now that I taper bored, then with it still in the chuck I've reformed some 20b Magtech brass down to the size and shape of these chambers.
The plan with that die is to contour and thread it to fit in to my reloading press and also to work with a set of hand tools that can fit in the rifle case.

It might be tomorrow or the next day before I get any images up here to help describe the process I'm taking on this project.

Thanks for the nice comment too!
Definitely do keep your eyes out for pinfire double rifles.
They're extremely rare, but for now they're still not too terribly expensive when you can find them.
The amount of work needed to get them running is nothing considering the satisfaction of using them out in the field.
This is very rewarding work for sure.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Sarg
.400 member


Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #112987 - 30/08/08 08:15 AM

Tinker
Now don,t get upset here ! but I have seen a pinfire (in a magazine) that was set up to fire both centre fire & pinfire with the same hammers factory job !
Now how hard would it be to put 2 strikes - firing pins in a pinfire frame and use centre fire ammo ?
Just relax before you answer !


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: Sarg]
      #112990 - 30/08/08 10:33 AM

Sarg-

Nothing to get upset about. I've seen such guns from late in the transitional period.
I'd never do anything like that to a gun or rifle of great quality, as the value of the piece would get killed in the process.

Personally I'd prefer to run any surviving relic of the era as it was found. There's a lot to get from getting through all it takes to have a running pinfire long gun.

For your money, spend on a cheap central fire Belgian (or baikal or whatever).
Add long noses to the hammers and convert it to pinfire, keeping the central fire hardware.
I just don't see the merit of throwing the effort into hacking an original pinfire action with the only benefit present being able to shoot central fire cartridges.
The world is filthy with dirt cheap central fire long guns of all descriptions.
Something else to consider is that the fore-aft depth of pinfire action standing-breeches is typically shallower than those designed for the central fire system.
And if you aren't a good machinist it's going to cost quite a bit to have done - and you'll have something that *might* still be useful (consider proof) at the end of the job.

If what you want is an example of that moment in the transitional period - with both firing systems in place - just find an original one that's still intact.
It'll take a while to find one, and it'll cost a bit -- but you won't be throwing your money away.

It can be done.
I just don't see the point.
Wouldn't do it myself.
If the hermaphrodite action type is what you want, start with central fire and work back in time.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113028 - 31/08/08 03:54 AM

Tinker,

I shall repeat what I told you privately here - I only wish the rifle could speak! Just think of what tales it would have to tell! Hunts possibly in India and in Africa, of driven game hunts in Europe and on private estates in the UK, of the conversations that it would have overheard among the elite of the world and so on!

You are a man of fine taste and also a lucky devil, my friend!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8731
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #113110 - 31/08/08 07:38 PM

tinker

with my limited knowledge about this topic I would say it was made for a paper case with a heeled bullet. believe that purdey had have a very small case when they make a chamber reamer. nothing was standardize in this days and we will find also today that shotgun cartridges have a lot of different measurment. what was in 1862 with cases from france, belgium, germany or brittain.
the chamber is to small? not unusual for an early gun. I haver a simple 24 ga Colette/Liege hammer gun with very tight chambers, beliefe it was make before 1880. the gun makes absolut no problems with old paper rounds from Eley, RWS etc. also the new Fiocchi plastic will fit but Magtech 24 ga brass want.
I was thinking a second about a new chamber reamer and this will be history but decide to rework the brass.



look at the pic, I turn the brass over the rim ( believe 0,3mm) and size with a .577 snider die. so it is possible for the gun to take the brass.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: lancaster]
      #113147 - 01/09/08 03:11 AM

Lancaster-

Thanks for the comment and photograph.
Later today I will get some images up of the brass cases I've swaged and modified from Magtech 20b central fire brass.
I'll also try to get out to the machine shop and finish up my swaging die and get a couple images of it too.

Along with those I'll snap some shots of some variations of cases I've done for the sixteen bore rifles and my 'cup wad' (umbrella card for over the powder) punch and die set.

On Purdey's conical for the period, Unsworth's book The Early Purdeys features a series of photographs of a 20b SxS pinfire rifle from 1865. That rifle is shown with it's case and tooling, including a hollow-point bullet mould. Although there are a couple of images of the mould, there is no detail on the shape of the cavity, nor is there comment or image of a cast bullet or it's specifics (weight, diameter, exact configruation...)

I plan to write Mr Unsworth some time soon to tell him of the existence of this rifle and send him some images of it, also to ask if he can get me in touch with the owner of that other 20b Pinfire rifle so that I can either see the mould and/or get a couple of bullets thrown from it for examination.
That would be ideal.
Judging from images I've seen of other Purdey conicals from the period, I expect the bullet to have more of an acorn shape to the nose than the round 'cats head' design seen in our discussion on bore rifle and paradox cartridges.
We shall see.


Again, thanks for your input.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113274 - 02/09/08 03:38 AM

More to share...


First, my apologies for not getting images up here of the metal work I have going for this rifle. I'm currently taking six college courses and this weekend ended up having me at the desk, morning till past midnight.
I'm managing to fit mail calls in between study and course work, and this morning I got some more interesting fuel for this very entertaining research project.

Early on right after I received the rifle, I took off to the ranch to show off the new stick and discuss this chamber issue with our people out there. We poured through the cartridge collection and into the library to see if there was something obvious to discover. Although we didn't find any glaring neon arrows pointing in any particular direction, there was hope of outside help in the form of a comment in one of the books stating that it's author welcomed inquiry and data around cartridges not seen in his text. We happened to have his telephone number in the rolodex, so I took it and dialed away.

To my good fortune the call was taken with enthusiasm. The man I spoke with shared my excitement over the rifle and it's 'issue' but had no knowledge to share specific to these curious chambers. He did however mention a couple of other gentlemen who have similar depth of knowledge and whose libraries and areas of study would likely encompass this 'mid-transitional' period.

This morning while checking the mail I noticed a note from one of them, a retired British Armorer. We'd briefly discussed this and he'd made mention of a Robert Adams patent from 1860 that he felt might deserve a look. Today's mail contained a scan of the abbreviated patent including an image.



As this man noted, the date is right and Adams would have been familiar with Purdey.
Our Prince was a Naval Officer and closely followed the pace of development at the time. There are accounts in Unsworth's book of Purdey's knowledge of issues with paper cases separating heads when used in wet climates, dew or rain down the tubes or in through wicking at the firing pins could dampen the paper tube.
It would definitely make sense for this young Neptune-to-be to have knowledge of Adams' work and the sense to order this feature for his rifle.

Here from Greener's The Gun and it's Development accounts of other dabbling with metallic cases from the period, including note to work with metallic cartridge designs that Adams was doing prior to the 1860 patent.




So much for there being no evidence of thin metallic pinfire Bore Rifle cartridge cases in 1862.

Fun thoughts to ponder this Monday morning!





--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bpesteve
.300 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Sunset side up
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: tinker]
      #113378 - 02/09/08 11:42 PM

This beautiful rifle has obviously found the right home. Major congrats on the find and a fine job of research (and machining!). Just yummy. Color me envious!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdey 20b SxS Rifle, Pinfire [Re: bpesteve]
      #113398 - 03/09/08 03:39 AM

Steve-

Thanks for the kind words.
I have to agree with you on the 'right home' comment!

Do you still have your 14b Richards double rifle?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 18 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  tinker 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 26847

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved