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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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bigmaxx
.375 member


Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.
Beware of online reload data
      #112638 - 27/08/08 01:33 AM

Most of you all probably already know this, but for anyone who doesnt; beware of all the reloading data you see on the internet. Double check it with reputable sources. I found some misinformation on AMMOGUIDE.COM myself. After contacting them they didn't seem to concerned. I called Hornady and got the correct information. I am inclined to go with the Hornady information, since they developed the cartridge. The .375 ruger!

--------------------
One day at a time...


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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Beware of online reload data [Re: bigmaxx]
      #112644 - 27/08/08 02:36 AM

Also beware of gun magazines. Over the years I have seen numerous overloads published as safe. Don't think that because a magazine specializes in hand loading that they won't steer you wrong either. Bigmaxx is right, put your trust in bona-fide loading manuals, and double check them against each other.

That’s not to say that loading information in gun magazines has no place. When I read about a cartridge I’m not familiar with, I like to see what various components are capable of, and what works well. But I won’t load and fire those combinations based on that magazine article.

There is one online source I know of that I feel is safe to use. That is the Hodgdon website (http://www.hodgdon.com/).


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Nakihunter
.375 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Beware of online reload data [Re: Tatume]
      #112672 - 27/08/08 09:49 AM

Great posts. 14 years ago I had blown primer & case failure from a 243 with Barnes X bullets set too close to the rifling.

Here are a few thumb rules that I stick to now....

1. Never try to exceed the pressure tested max velocity for a particular powder / bullet combination. Yes you may need a grain or two more OR LESS to reach that published & pressure tested velocity. With due respect to experienced members on this site & elsewhere, I am skeptical of those who claim that their safe loads give them higher velocities in their rifle. That is contrary to the laws of Physics.
2. Maximum velocity for a load = maximum pressure (NOT maximum powder charge)
3. BUT - Maximum pressure may be reached before maximum velocity in a particular rifle - stop there!
3. For hunting loads, seat bullets 0.030 off the rifling & for mono-metal (Barnes X etc) make that 0.050 off the rifling.
4. For small cases like 222 Rem - do not try to go to 50,000 psi (you will blow primers like I did). The case is designed for 45,000 psi - I do not understand why this so low when the 270 can go to 62,000 psi. Again stick to max pressure tested velocity for load.
5. In rimless / smooth sided cases like 30'06, WSM, 308 etc, anything less than 10 reloads means the charges are too high & unsafe.
6. If reseated primers are not really tight (almost like a new case) then the primer pocket has expanded due to an unsafe load or the brass is too soft & needs to be scrapped. Yes - I have had lose primer seating in my 280 Ackley Imp with loads that did not get to max velocities! I just changed to a slower powder & bingo! I got the 3100 fps with 150grs bullets & 12 reloads out of the new brass.
7. Always check case length & trim if necessary. Stretched cases can pinch the bullet at the throat & pressure spikes to unsafe levels.

Yes, I know that some of those thumb rules may not be scientifically proven - but they are SAFE. That is why they are thumb rules!

Safe shooting to everyone.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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bigmaxx
.375 member


Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.
Re: Beware of online reload data [Re: Nakihunter]
      #112681 - 27/08/08 11:19 AM

To update my origional post; AMMOGUIDE.COM did contact me and revised the .375 ruger section on their site with the correct dimensions. I was glad to hear they did that. I still like to verify data with a known source. I feel real good about getting data from Hornady, after all they developed the .375 ruger in the first place.

--------------------
One day at a time...


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458ONLY
.224 member


Reged: 20/06/08
Posts: 24
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Beware of online reload data [Re: Nakihunter]
      #113948 - 08/09/08 12:03 PM

Your points 2 & 3 contradict each other. Which one is it... pressure or velocity? It has to be one or the other, not both. What determines if the pressure is too high? Velocity? Yet, you say that you may max out in psi before attaining max velocity. Who, or what determines that? It's like saying the warranty on my van expires at 100,000km or 36 months, whichever comes first.

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bigger_is_best
.275 member


Reged: 16/01/07
Posts: 82
Loc: Australia
Re: Beware of online reload data [Re: 458ONLY]
      #113956 - 08/09/08 03:40 PM

I think that point 2 means the velocity achieved is related to the pressure developed, not the quantity of powder burnt, while point 3 means that some rifles may develop maximum acceptable presure without reaching the advertised velocity, as would be the case if the published data was worked up in a 24" barrel, and your gun has a 22" barrel. Differences in chamber tolerances, barrel and rifling form, bullet shape and construction add infinitum, can change the relationship between pressure and velocity.
The point is velocity won't damage the gun, pressure might.


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Squarebridge
.300 member


Reged: 21/08/08
Posts: 129
Loc: Tennessee
Re: Beware of online reload data [Re: Nakihunter]
      #114049 - 09/09/08 10:29 PM

Quote:

Great posts. 14 years ago I had blown primer & case failure from a 243 with Barnes X bullets set too close to the rifling.

Here are a few thumb rules that I stick to now....


3. For hunting loads, seat bullets 0.030 off the rifling & for mono-metal (Barnes X etc) make that 0.050 off the rifling.

Safe shooting to everyone.




I'd like to ask about this. I have been reloading for 25 years but I've never gotten more technical than just using a case trim die and making sure they don't stretch. I throw them away when they crack, and I back off if I get primer set back.

I normally load to the cannelure that is on the bullet and just barely crimp - just enough to assist with smooth chambering.

I don't measure OAL - I just see if it chambers well. I load mostly heavy bullet stuff - 220 grains in my 30-06 and 175 in my 7x57.

Should I depend on the bullet's cannelure to give me proper seating depth, or is there some other better way to ascertain this? Should I leave the bullet seated out, try to chamber, then keep seating progressively deeper until I can barely close the bolt, then go .030 deeper than that?

I want to be a "minimalist" reloader, and don't want to get overly O.C. or technical, but I don't want to be a buffoon either.

Thanks for any advice.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27005
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Beware of online reload data [Re: Squarebridge]
      #114076 - 10/09/08 03:10 AM

Quote:


and I back off if I get primer set back.





Squarbridge - most of what you're doing will keep you out of trouble. Unfortunately, reloading is a technical undertaking and one should learn about pressure, what makes it, how to read and measure it and proper ctg. 'fitting' to stay out of trouble.

Your quote above shows you don't understand what is happening when primers back out of the ctg. case (as long as you aren't talking about case head and /or primer pocket expansion causing loose primers). Primers don't back out of the case because of too high pressure. They back out of the case due to an excessive headspace problem, either due to excessive headspace in the chamber or excessive headspace caused by the loader. This is caused by the loader due to improper die setting in the press, usually from setting the dies to touch the shell holder. With the .30/06 and the 7x57, you do not have to touch the shoulder with the die - ever. Partical FL sizing is all that is necesary for proper fitting ammo. Both the 7x57 and .30/06 have relatively long necks for holding the bullet securely and only need all but a 1/16" of the neck sized (actually less neck sizing than this is necessary) Adjust your dies so you can visibly see a false shoulder in front of the case neck/shoulder junction and your primer backing out will should stop with normal high medium loads.

When the firing pin hits the primer, it pushes the case forward in the chamber if there is room to move. The powder burns and pressures exerted on the case walls hold the ctg. in this forward position, but the primer backs up against the bolt face while the bullet departs. If the pressure is high enough, it overcomes the brass's ability to adhere to the chamber walls and pushes the ctg. back against the bolt, reseating the primer, flattening it somewhat and the brass stretches forward to the shoudler of the chamber filling that empty space all this while the case is fully supported by the bolt face. This is what is supposed to happen the first time the round is fired. If the pressure is not high enough to cause the case to stretch, expand and fill the chamber, the primer alone is pushed back against the bolt face, with shows up as a protruding primer. Reducing the pressure further is not the cure. Because the pressure was too low to re-seat the primer, increasing the load to generate normal pressure is the solution to primers backing out.

Reducing the load when you see a primer backed out, will not get you into trouble, but will cause you to load very much sub-standard ammo. Pressures in the relm of 35,000PSI generally don't re-seat the primers. The '06 and it's childred are fully capable of handling and do handle pressures in the 55,000PSI to 63,000PSi range - this is normal. Factory ammo is loaded to these levels and the handbook data generates these pressures with top-end loads.

Every handloader should have his/her own chronograph in this day and age. They are cheap and are a valuable tool used in conjunction with other tools, michrometer, calipers, etc in loading good, safe ammo. Learn to use the chronograph to properly access your handloads - more problems than solutions occurr with lack of knowledge or disinterest in that handloading knowledge. For people who don't want to know what is actually necessary to know, I suggest factory ammo.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Beware of online reload data [Re: DarylS]
      #114089 - 10/09/08 07:55 AM

As an ilistration of what Daryl said in a graphical format may I suggest this page:

http://www.varmintal.com/a243z.htm

Regards


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