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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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Squarebridge
.300 member


Reged: 21/08/08
Posts: 129
Loc: Tennessee
Extra set of DR barrels
      #112555 - 26/08/08 06:50 AM

I purchased a really sweet Huglu/CZ 20 gauge last week, then this week I happen on the section of the forums dealing with building DR's on shotgun actions and boy, the wheels are spinning. For one thing, this is one of the nicest, tightest little shotguns I've ever owned, and I would love - simply LOVE - to have a set of rifle barrels for it. It has a pistol grip and double triggers, which I understand is the one to get as the single trigger is a "double" waiting to happen.

What is the best large caliber that would work on the 20 gauge frame? I am thinking perhaps along the lines of a 400/350 or one of that ilk. I like the idea of 9,3X74R but there are lots of others. Most here seem to have used the 16 or 12 gauge frames, and gone with the largest nitro calibers, but there have to be some good thumpers available in a pressure range suitable for this smaller frame.

Also, I got a very interesting brochure from Gordon Harms, who is a gunsmith apparently undertaking to build DR's on shotgun frames, and his work looks pretty intriguing. He's had good success so far. Do any forum members have any acquaintance with him or his work?

One last thing - if you have the single trigger action, is there a way to make it safe for heavy DR use, or should you just avoid the single trigger altogether?

Thanks for any advice.


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Squarebridge]
      #112560 - 26/08/08 07:33 AM

Hi!

As for caliber a 8x58jrs is a neat one, and i would stay off the single trigger myself but only as its wrong and uggly.

btw. o/u or s/s

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Squarebridge
.300 member


Reged: 21/08/08
Posts: 129
Loc: Tennessee
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: 450_366]
      #112572 - 26/08/08 09:38 AM

Side by side of course! My mother didn't raise no hoodlum. I think the 8x68 would be a great one, but I'm going to have to learn more about chamber pressures. Is there a handy source that lists chamber pressures of the standard sporting rounds, including the classic nitro stuff?

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tecno
.224 member


Reged: 09/11/07
Posts: 36
Loc: Sparreholm, Sweden
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Squarebridge]
      #112965 - 30/08/08 12:20 AM

Take a look The new caliber from Sweden 9,3x57R.SE

--------------------
Cheers Tecno
Sweden
FinnClassic 512//SOLD
DR O&U 9,3x74R
NEW>>> sbs Cal20 DR 9,3x57R.SE


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tecno
.224 member


Reged: 09/11/07
Posts: 36
Loc: Sparreholm, Sweden
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: tecno]
      #112971 - 30/08/08 01:15 AM

squarebridge, do have any pictures to show us. I am very keen to see the looks of your gun, if possible close-ups.

--------------------
Cheers Tecno
Sweden
FinnClassic 512//SOLD
DR O&U 9,3x74R
NEW>>> sbs Cal20 DR 9,3x57R.SE


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: tecno]
      #112984 - 30/08/08 06:39 AM

Quote:

Take a look The new caliber from Sweden 9,3x57R.SE





Does it give you anything that a 9.3 x 74R doesn't ?

What's the opinions ?


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: 500Nitro]
      #112991 - 30/08/08 11:06 AM

No balistics given but extrapolating somewhere between .360#2 and .375 Flanged 2 1/2"

Actually could be a nice medium. Chamber pressure might be a bit high to get the velocity in a x57 case, so eventually would end up about 375 2 1/2 I would think.
Easier way would be to neck up 9 x 72 R I would imagine. Extra case capacity could maybe get the velocity without the pressure.

Regards


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500Nitro
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Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Bramble]
      #112995 - 30/08/08 02:16 PM


Bramble

If you neck up a 9 x 72R which I think brass is reasonably hard to come by (or alot harder than 9.3 x 74R, then why wouldn't you just go 9.3 x 74R - or 375 2 1/2" ?


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Bramble
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Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: 500Nitro]
      #113011 - 30/08/08 11:29 PM

I wouldent actually, this was just hypothysising on the usefullness of a 9.3 x 57.

Hypotheticaly the 375 2 1/2 is a bit underpowered and the 9.3 a little heavy for a light medium Deer/medium plains game rifle.

I don't think that it would be worth the hassle, but somebody was complaining that we don't post enough and I'm often accused of being a grumpy old sod.

Regards


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Bramble]
      #113013 - 31/08/08 12:20 AM


"Hypotheticaly the 375 2 1/2 is a bit underpowered"
Hypotheticaly is a good word for it !

For Africa, yes, but as a light double it was designed for, no.

"and I'm often accused of being a grumpy old sod"

LOL


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3531
Loc: Colorado
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Squarebridge]
      #113016 - 31/08/08 12:33 AM

Quote:

I think the 8x68 would be a great one, but I'm going to have to learn more about chamber pressures. Is there a handy source that lists chamber pressures of the standard sporting rounds, including the classic nitro stuff?




8X68 would be a good choice. Obviously, the beauty of a double (especially after the experience of making your first set of barrels)is that you can make another set in a different caliber! Or a set of cape barrels, or another set of shotty barrels - you see the allure?

What game do you expect to be going after?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Huvius]
      #113022 - 31/08/08 02:45 AM

8 x 68 may not be a good idea for a couple of reasons.

1) It is a rimless round.

2) It is a relitivly high pressure rimless round. (roughly the metric equilivent of a .338 win mag)

I have nothing whatsoever against conversions, but that on a 20G CZ would have me moving to the other end of the range.

In your location 30-40 would be nice and safe.

220 grains @ 2200 is not to be sneezed at. Factory loads are availible for regulation and 30 cal barrels are plentiful even new take offs second hand.

Regards


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Squarebridge
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Reged: 21/08/08
Posts: 129
Loc: Tennessee
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Bramble]
      #113187 - 01/09/08 11:58 AM

Thanks very much - I appreciate the replies. 30-40 had actually crossed my mind - it would be supremely useful and like you said, it's nothing to sneeze at. 220 grains at 2200 would keep going, and going, and going...

The allure of the 400/350 keeps pulling at me, hard. Probably due to John Taylor's book as much as anything else. It's not a practical thing at all, of course, and there are better options. But the 9.3X74 is a little too common to get me excited. I would like to know what chamber pressures you get with all of these options, but I can't seem to find that information anywhere.


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Squarebridge
.300 member


Reged: 21/08/08
Posts: 129
Loc: Tennessee
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: tecno]
      #113188 - 01/09/08 12:11 PM

"squarebridge, do have any pictures to show us. I am very keen to see the looks of your gun, if possible close-ups."

Not yet I don't - it's got a coin finish receiver, a Prince of Wales grip, and double triggers. I was told by the person I bought it from that it was imported back when CZ was importing Huglu shotguns. Now I think they're imported by Huglu itself? But then I look on CZ's webpage and it looks like they have a full selection of these shotguns, although none exactly like mine.

Very confusing, all this import/export business.

Anyway, the gunsmith that is offering to take the job on says that CZ is very helpful and will make up a set of donor barrels and provide a spare forearm for the job. Apparently he uses a donor set, then uses the lumps and breeches of the donor barrels for the conversion. His name is Gordon Harm, and the photos of his work that I've seen look solid and attractive - very clean work. He's got a 45-70 he built for himself and he says it's not even broken in well after over 300 rounds, and he said he doesn't use light weight loads.

Edited by squarebridge (01/09/08 12:13 PM)


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Bramble]
      #113471 - 03/09/08 08:12 PM

Quote:

8 x 68 may not be a good idea for a couple of reasons.

1) It is a rimless round.

2) It is a relitivly high pressure rimless round. (roughly the metric equilivent of a .338 win mag)

I have nothing whatsoever against conversions, but that on a 20G CZ would have me moving to the other end of the range.

In your location 30-40 would be nice and safe.

220 grains @ 2200 is not to be sneezed at. Factory loads are availible for regulation and 30 cal barrels are plentiful even new take offs second hand.

Regards




This would probably be my foult as i wrote 8x58jrs instead of the proper 8x57jrs and it was then taken for the 8x68s, i love the later to but only as a bolt gun.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: 450_366]
      #113496 - 04/09/08 02:13 AM

The whole breech pressure thing is going to open up a can of worms here as there are several opinions on this matter here in relation to converted weapons.

It is not the breech pressure that is important up to a degree dependent on barrel wall thickness, but how that acts on the breech face and attempts to open the gun. So BREECH THRUST

FROM THE DATA I HAVE: Base thrust:

400/350 16 Tons
9.3 x 74 16 Tons

30/40 CIP Max ave pressure 47,000 psi
Base area = 0.1643( {.457/2}{.457/2}x 3.14) Inch square x 47,000 = 7722.1 lbs / 2240 = 3.447 Tons thrust.

Now this is not exact there are some issues around this, however even allowing for error of 100% it is for me, a good chioce on a light action for plains game and US use..

I think that the 30-40 is the sleeper cartridge for sane conversions. Wide choice of bullets, plentiful and cheep cases, easy barrel supply and nice to shoot in a lightish gun.

Regards


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Bramble]
      #113510 - 04/09/08 05:02 AM

I would love to see someone that has taken a crossbolt action and stressed it untill it opened. Even if you leave the metal thick around the angle of where the table and standing breech meets it realy shouldnt do anything then add weight if the crossbolt is correctly fitted. The force should be on the crossbolt and hinge in a streight angle with the barrels, or am i wrong?

Damn its almost as i want to try this myself, and why not take the locks off completly and only leave the crossbolt. Someone with the skills to calculate the force to cut the crossbult streight of, and then take the angle of opening and everything else in the calculation?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: 450_366]
      #113577 - 04/09/08 07:55 PM

Didn't Greener make a shotgun using only the crossbolt to fasten it, at one stage? I forget where I read that now but Burrard rings a bell.

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Squarebridge
.300 member


Reged: 21/08/08
Posts: 129
Loc: Tennessee
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Paul]
      #113586 - 04/09/08 11:16 PM

The more I think about the 30-40 the more sense it makes. Especially for a first DR building job - it would completely simplify the question of ammunition. Ramping up home production on an obscure obsolete British round - cases, bullets, dies - would add a whole layer of complexity and expense to an already complex project.

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Paul]
      #113621 - 05/09/08 03:41 AM

Quote:

Didn't Greener make a shotgun using only the crossbolt to fasten it, at one stage? I forget where I read that now but Burrard rings a bell.




I think theres a american shotgun with only the third bite also, but i ment to shoot heavy NE cartridges not whimpy shells.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Bramble]
      #113714 - 06/09/08 02:53 AM

My mistake - I was thinking rimmed...
Just what bears the brunt of using a higher pressure round anyway? Is it the hinge, or the action face or what part exactly? I kinda figured "meat" around the chamber was the most important factor.
I used to have a Genossenschaft double in 7X65r and am sure that was a pretty high pressure round.
Didn't have overly heavy breeches either.
Could a normally high pressure cartridge be loaded down since these would be new barrels anyway?
I guess the danger in that is a future owner may assume full power loads are OK to use...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Huvius]
      #113717 - 06/09/08 04:25 AM

My largest concern wouldnt be the pressure as much as the streight walls of a cartrige. The steels now aviable is probably good enough to build a double in any round. If one takes a 600NE thats a low pressure round and compare it to a small high pressure the difference in force opon the breach is the same or higher.

But when using a shotgun for action a low pressure is always one thing less that could go wrong.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Bramble
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Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: 450_366]
      #113724 - 06/09/08 08:20 AM

Look at it this way.

Take a 100 foot (30m) water tower. Connect two pipes one 1/2" (15mm) one 4" (100mm) to ground level.

The first you will shut off with your thumb. The second you could not close off with your hand no matter how hard you try.

The static pressure is the same in both instances, but the force (thrust) exerted by that pressure is vastly different. 64 times greater in fact. It is the principle on which all hydrolic systems operate.

Regards


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Squarebridge
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Reged: 21/08/08
Posts: 129
Loc: Tennessee
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Bramble]
      #113747 - 06/09/08 03:10 PM

That's an interesting example, but does it really relate to double rifles? I'm thinking the water tower displays a "steady state" pressure which represents the pressure of gravity pushing the fluid through varying diameters of pipe. Whereas with a rifle, you have an explosive force, not gravity, and then we must look at the actual forces involved. A 7mm Mauser is about 45,000 cup (if I've found the right information) whereas a 30-40 is about 39,000. There isn't any appreciable difference in the size of the "pipe". A 416 Rigby generates less pressure in cup than a 240 Weatherby, again having nothing to do with diameter. But does this mean you'd have to build a DR in 240 Weatherby HEAVIER than one in 416? I don't know the answer to that, and I sincerely doubt it by the way.

I'm no engineer, and as Huck Finn says "This is too many for me..." but I think the better question is the one posted above by Huvius. What exactly takes the force of the explosion? Certainly part of it is the chamber walls themselves. Part of it pushes the bullet out. Part of it is backward against the standing breech. But how do all these forces play on the action? Does the hinge pin take most of it? Does a Greener crossbolt do anything in real life? Is the Doll's Head bite merely window dressing? I don't think I've ever seen these questions dealt with anywhere. I suppose Holland or Rigby at some point (one would assume?) purposely blew up a double (perish the thought) to see where it "broke". These mechanisms don't come from pure imagination. But when converting a shotgun action, it becomes really important to know where your weaknesses are.

And this doesn't take into account a lubricated case, and the backward thrust that would put on the mechanism. A heavy bolt action is an immensely stronger mechanism, and even they can be strained by this form of testing.

Like I said, "It's too many for me." But, absent any real numbers or destructive testing, I think that we should be able to look at original rifles, and go with the same basic dimensions (thickness of chamber walls, hinge pin diameters, etc.) and with modern steels, we'll be just fine. Unless someone wants to donate a dozen converted shotguns for a painful day of blow-up tests, this is probably as close as we'll come.

"If it looks right, chances are it is right." This has built a lot of palaces and cathedrals and bridges through man's history.

Sorry for the long post.


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Extra set of DR barrels [Re: Squarebridge]
      #113760 - 06/09/08 05:33 PM

How about that firingpin diameter, what pressure will be harmfull with a shotgun pin? Suraly there does the basediameter mean nothing?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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