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Ben
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Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo?
      #112331 - 23/08/08 07:12 PM

G'day!

I would like to find a black powder ball-thrower that could take a water buffalo. How do you think the Pedersoli Kodiak Express .72 double would handle the job? I have no idea about muzzleloading or black powder, but am wanting to learn and experience this!

Thanks,

Ben


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Ben]
      #112335 - 23/08/08 08:08 PM

Ben,
I have a friend who used to take out hunters on black powder hunts for American Bison. His back up weapon of choice was a 12 gauge double barrel muzzleloading shotgun loaded with round balls. It saved more than one of his hunters from being stomped into prarie pate'.


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Ben
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #112344 - 23/08/08 10:42 PM

Thanks. Pardon my ignorance, but is 12 bore (.72") the same as 12 guage in terms of barrel size?

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bigmaxx
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Ben]
      #112349 - 24/08/08 01:08 AM

Jim Shockey of TV fame has taken alot of game including cape buffalo with muzzleloader. One of the greatest buffolo guns for north american bison would have to be the Hawken rifles. I shoot some old Hawken rifles in .50 and .54 caliber and they are IMHO cabable of taking large dangerous game. I personally think in the case of elephant or cape buffalo I would want the PH beside me with a .470 Nitro Express!

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szihn
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Ben]
      #112350 - 24/08/08 01:08 AM


Yes Ben, that's correct.
And, to answer your 1st question, the 12 bore rifle is completely adequate for buffalo. In India in the 1870s, the 16 bore was the common gun. It's 66 cal, and the 12 is 72 caliber. The "secret" is to use hard balls.
I am not intimate with the Petersoli, so I can't recommend a load, but I have made quite a few single barreled British style stalking rifles over the years and have found that the 62 and 66 calibers kill all manor of American game very well. American Bison, brown bears and moos all fall dead with properly place hard balls.
I will be making a 12 bore Rigby style rifle in the near future for just such a purpose.

I use a charge of 165 gr of 2F black powder in the 12 bore, but some shoot even better with even heavier charges. Ball size and patch thickness will vary, depending on the barrel they go in. Some with shallow rifling and wide grooves (Forsyth style rifling) can get along with a ball only .005 under bore and a thing patch. Others with deeper rifling and/or narrower grooves need to go as much as .020" under bore size and use patches of .016" to .022" thick.

Good luck.

Steve


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Ben
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: szihn]
      #112359 - 24/08/08 09:34 AM

Thanks, gents!

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beleg2
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Ben]
      #112536 - 26/08/08 02:20 AM

Ben,
This is not my experience, just some I find on another forum:

My Kodiak 72 is a shooter, 80 grs GOEX and PRB prints 1.5" horizontal at 75 yards. I have killed buffalo at 100 yards, both balls passed completely through, both hit ribs, with 90 grs GOEX 2f. That's enough penetration. A friend who likes to see how much powder he can burn, has settled on 110 grs as a practical limit-nothing to be gained in his opinion in burning more powder.

Martin


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tarawa
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: beleg2]
      #112537 - 26/08/08 02:32 AM

I just ordered a .715 ball mould and .015 patches from Jeff Tanner in the UK. Can anyone give me a good formula for casting balls with a wheel weight and soft lead mixture. I still want the ball to load easy. This will be for my Pedersoli Kodiak.

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degoins
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: tarawa]
      #112550 - 26/08/08 05:23 AM

tarawa,
i just got one of these Kodiak .72s and it was very hard to load with .715 balls and pillow ticking patches. i had to lube some plain old 2" cleaning patches and use those.....and they work just fine.


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tarawa
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: degoins]
      #112581 - 26/08/08 10:55 AM

Quote:

tarawa,
i just got one of these Kodiak .72s and it was very hard to load with .715 balls and pillow ticking patches. i had to lube some plain old 2" cleaning patches and use those.....and they work just fine.




Thank you for this info. I am still gathering all the necessary stuff for my gun. I do have 2" cleaning patches. Do they burn thru when you fire the gun?

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degoins
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: tarawa]
      #112631 - 26/08/08 11:14 PM

not with real black powder, but 777 burns through pillow ticking.........even with the lightest loads i've tried.

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bigmaxx
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: degoins]
      #112639 - 27/08/08 01:35 AM

Try T/C bore butter for your lube. I have never had a patch burn through with it. I shoot .54 caliber roundies in a Hawken.

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degoins
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: bigmaxx]
      #112640 - 27/08/08 01:40 AM

that's what i use. black wont burn through it, but 777 will every time. at least that's been my experience.

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451whitworth
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: tarawa]
      #112786 - 28/08/08 11:25 AM

Quote:

I just ordered a .715 ball mould and .015 patches from Jeff Tanner in the UK. Can anyone give me a good formula for casting balls with a wheel weight and soft lead mixture. I still want the ball to load easy. This will be for my Pedersoli Kodiak.


i use a .715" Rapine ball mould for pure lead balls and .010" patches for a snug load that dosen't move under recoil from the first barrel firing but is loadable under field conditions. i tried WW .715" balls and couldn't get them down the barrel without pounding (and i mean literally pounding with a wood dowel and a hammer)them down. i think you will experience the same problem. so i bought a cheap Lee .690" mould, cast up some WW balls and use pillow ticking or .020" patches for cheap shooting. sizing the .715" WW balls down to .705"-.710" works also.

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tarawa
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: 451whitworth]
      #112839 - 28/08/08 11:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I just ordered a .715 ball mould and .015 patches from Jeff Tanner in the UK. Can anyone give me a good formula for casting balls with a wheel weight and soft lead mixture. I still want the ball to load easy. This will be for my Pedersoli Kodiak.


i use a .715" Rapine ball mould for pure lead balls and .010" patches for a snug load that dosen't move under recoil from the first barrel firing but is loadable under field conditions. i tried WW .715" balls and couldn't get them down the barrel without pounding (and i mean literally pounding with a wood dowel and a hammer)them down. i think you will experience the same problem. so i bought a cheap Lee .690" mould, cast up some WW balls and use pillow ticking or .020" patches for cheap shooting. sizing the .715" WW balls down to .705"-.710" works also.




How do you size a .715 ball? Do you drive it through a .705" hole or barrel stub? Would this make it slightly cylindrical? Thanks for all the input.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: 451whitworth]
      #113608 - 05/09/08 01:44 AM

ALL muzzleloader, smoothbore and rifles purchased from Pedersoli and other manufacturers and importers need the muzzles to be re-crowned to allow the use of a substancial patch. Thick patches hold more lube, give the best accuracy and withstand the higher pressures of hunting loads - if they are paired with the proper size round ball.

Your thumb with a strip of 320grit emery cloth is all that is needed to properly radius the crown of the barrel. Rotate it back and forth, pushing your thumb into the bore with the emery cloth underneath it, with or without oil, turning the barrel 180 degrees every 15 seconds and in a minute or two, you should be finished. Before doing this, I shove a cloth wad down into the bore an inch or so to catch the 'dirt', then pull it out with tweezers. If the muzzles are still too sharp, then a tapered cutter might have to be used - carefully. The crown must be centred, not lop sided to the world.

There is no pounding necessary when loading other than a single sharp whack with a short starter's flat surface knob to put the patched ball flush with the bore. The starter then is used to push the patched ball down the bore 4" to 6", then the rod is used to load it onto the powder in 2 or 3 short pushes.

Hoppe's #9 Plus is a good lube for this and for hunting. You might also try Shanendoah Valley Lube, or Hornady's Cleaner and perserver as a lube. Bore Butter might work in warm climates for a few shots but is useless in cold. Bore butter leaves it's own fouling in the rifling and needs boiling hot water to melt it or solvents to disolve it to clean it out after getting the BP fouling out of the bore. Some knowledgable shooters have lost accuracy after as few as 6 rounds when using bore butter due to this pasty fouling that sticks to the bore, while others report losing accuracy after 9 or 10 shots. The patched ball seems to ride over it instead of pushing it all out. Good stuff!

I use a ball that is .005" under bore size plus a .0215" (10 ounce denim material) patch for all rifles with up to .016" deep rifling. I use a bore size ball with a .020" denim patch - all load esily for me. I suspect the Pedersolis have .012" or shallower and the .715" ball is already .015" smaller than the bore (if it's a true 12 bore at .729") If the Pedersoli is a true .72 cal. with a .720" bore, then the .715" ball is perfect. If shooting WW or a combination of WW and pure lead in a .720" bore, you may wish to use a slightly smaller ball - I'd suggest .705" to .710". If you use the Lyman or Lee .690" mould, you'll need a heavy patch that fills to the bottom of the grooves. Simple mathematics will tell you if your patch is thick enough.

I find it absolutely amazing that no one seems to have measured their Pedersoli.72 double rifle's bore so they can use appropriate components. Measuring is the FIRST thing one should do so proper decisions can be made to what the gun requires.

One the bore's muzzles are re-crowned to a good radius, one must clean the bore, then amass the necessary items needed for shooting. Proper thickness of patching, seveal different ones for testing, balls, adjustable powder measure, powder and caps - I suggest only real black powder. In heavier hunting loads, it has been reported that T7 gets erratic as to pressure - something you don't want.

One must practise and find a load that will shoot both barrels close enough to be useable. Some of the Pedersoli guns cross fire at close range,w hich is unusable and must be retruend to them for replacement while others shoot well with up to 175gr. of powder and parallel to 100 yards range which is perfect regulation, although they don't really regulate the guns as the British did. pedersoli's barrels are lazer aligned and brazed. What you see is what you get. They're pretty good at guessing, but sometimes screw up, therefore you may have to return the gun. I know of 2 that were returned and replace successfully.

I like the style of their doubles and would own one of the .72's myself, except for the fact they still don't know how to properly breech a double rifle. Their fences look good, but are inefective as they mount the nipples too high on the patent breech.

Hope this helps. if it is too hard to start the ball with a proper patch, your crown (or your methods) needs attention. My match flintlock uses a ball that is .002" larger than the bore along with a .020" denim patch. It is easy to load due to it's nicely radiused crown. The crown swages the ball and patch into a perfect fit. The tighter the fit, the more accurate the rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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451whitworth
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: DarylS]
      #113657 - 05/09/08 10:24 AM

hi Daryl S. actually i did measure my pedersoli kodiak .72 when i first bought it. .724" land and .732" groove. i always look forward to your posts. regards, patrick

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: 451whitworth]
      #113660 - 05/09/08 11:10 AM

Thanks Patrick - congrats on the measurements - I was very curious. At .724" for the land and ,732" groove, they have only .004" per side.
: A .715" ball is .009" smaller than the bore and that's about perfect for an easy load, but generally needs a fairly heavy patch.
: Do you know what the rifling twist is, Patrick? The rate of twist will dictate to an extent what the patch thickness will need to be. The slower the twist, the thinner a patch one can get away with. However that can be counterproductive if run to the extremem, ie: .014' or thinner as thin patches hold little lube to keep fouling soft for backup shots. When hunting, you don't want to have to wipe the bore out before being able to load the gun. That just doesn't make sense.
: For the heavier loads one might be inclined to use on African-type game, I'd be using a .715" ball and a .020" patch. The rifle would have a proper crown to allow easy laoding of that combination and I'd have several tapered paper cartridges in my pocket for a fast reload if necessary.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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451whitworth
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: DarylS]
      #113740 - 06/09/08 01:10 PM

twist is 1-86". my rifle fouls very little with 140gr. of Goex FFFG. i have been using bridger's best felt grease wads over the powder. i can load both barrels easily even after 6 shots from each barrel.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: 451whitworth]
      #114279 - 12/09/08 09:35 PM

Quote:

Shanendoah Valley Lube




Let a good old Virginia boy gently correct you. It's "Shenandoah".

The valley of the Shenandoah River runs from northern Rockbridge County, Virginia NNE to its confluence with the Potomac River at Harper's Ferry, West Virginia.

An awful lot of war was fought through that valley 1861-1865.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenandoah_Valley

After all, Daryl, I wouldn't call the Stikine River the "Stickne" River!

(Sorry for the slight hijack.)

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylSModerator
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: CptCurl]
      #114292 - 13/09/08 01:58 AM

Tks, Curl - I kinda figured my spelling might be incorrect - I've already slapped both wrists for you.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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bonanza
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: 451whitworth]
      #114306 - 13/09/08 06:43 AM

I have taken mine to 150 grains of 777 with decent accuracy (4.3" 4 shot composite group).

--------------------


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"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

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"Yo! Mr. White"


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: bonanza]
      #114332 - 13/09/08 09:50 PM

Daryl,

Just for fun, just for fun. . .

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Dphariss
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Ben]
      #114476 - 15/09/08 04:17 PM

Quote:

G'day!

I would like to find a black powder ball-thrower that could take a water buffalo. How do you think the Pedersoli Kodiak Express .72 double would handle the job? I have no idea about muzzleloading or black powder, but am wanting to learn and experience this!

Thanks,

Ben




Should work fine with 5 to 7 drams of FFG BP and a hardened lead ball. Its not excessive but should be adequate. Its certainly no popgun.
John Taylor killed Afican Elephant with a 10 bore (about .735-.740 ball) smoothie at one time. Its in his book "Pondoro".

Dan


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Ben
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Dphariss]
      #115271 - 23/09/08 09:49 PM

Thanks, fellows. Another question: Can bullets be used in the Pedersoli .72? Or is it only ball? Cheers, Ben

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