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Surely you don't mean the A.H.Fox?

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I remember seeing a lot of rimmed chamberings for the Baikals that disappeared when Remington started to talk about the Spartan (?).

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Surely you don't mean the A.H.Fox?

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Sorry, I better clarify myself and should have said Savage Fox! Never owned an AH Fox.

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I have a Fox Sterlingworth that was cut to 23" sometime through the years, probably to hunt quail. I have heard its not strong enough to convert to a .45-70 double rifle. Boy I wish it could. Its a neat old gun. I think I might try to have it converted to a 20 bore rifle. I had a higher grade 20 A.H.Fox a few years ago and traded it off. Need a swift kick in the pants for that trade.

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One day at a time...

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When Remington introduced the SxS Spartan DR at the Shot Show (2004 or 2005), everyone was really excited and couldn't wait to be able to own one. Years went by and the excitement turned to anger because some of our Aussie friends were able to purchase them but they were still not available here in the US. Everyone still wanted to be able to own a DR without taking a second mortgage on his home. $600.00 seemed like a great deal, even for an ugly Russian rifle. It has been 4 years since the rumors of this gun were started. Price of gas skyrocketed as the dollar plummeted. It's 2008 and the gun finally is a reality, but now it is too ugly or too expensive for a club. Well for some of us that may never be able to afford a fancy European or English gun these cheap shooter grades were just the ticket. It looks and fits quite well in the gun safe next to my Stevens and Fox double guns that also are scorned by the connoisseurs of the gun world. Heck these guns served America well for almost a century and may do so for another.
I have only got about 50 rounds through my Spartan. It shoots well and hasn't blown up yet. I have yet to go hunting with it, but when I do take it here in my neck of the woods in Florida, I won't have to wear a brown bag over my head in shame.
Now I have to scrounge up some cash so I can get the 45-70 version before they are all gone!

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I think George's quote above '' Hit the Nail on The Head '' ... Sometimes Affluence Brings out Poor Form in people despite ones supposed social class, & education. Isn't this forum about the love of firearms in general & not their dollar value ?

It shouldn't matter if we get from Point A to Point B in Life in either a VW Beetle or a Rolls Royce it should merely matter that we arrive safely & comfortably in what we personally deem necessary to spend.

AMEN !

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So what is your point? Are you claiming NE has poor form?

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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I think the more doubles sold to anyone, the more of a market will be developed and maybe "mainline" companies will start to consider the whole double rifle market as being worthwhile to pursue.

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I actully think there may be a bunch of truth to this.

From a modern perspective, doubles have a lot going for them:

1} "Legislation-Proof"; or at least, less attackable as a "milspec" gun with anti-human tendencies...

2} Few people have them, so there is a large open market. Remember, most guns are sold to fellows who already have many guns. At some point you'd think guys would get bored buying "another bolt gun". I know I have...

3} There is precedent; Ruger's No 1. "Everybody" said it couldn't be done, but there was Bill, ignoring them all, making a modern pseudo-Farquaharson that has now become something of a classic in its own right.

4} At no point has a truly high-quality MASS-PRODUCED double ever been made. Somebody CAN engineer a regulation system that would be useable by the average Joe, and THAT in my opinion is the biggest obstacle to be leaped.

5} Easier to travel with due to the breakdown feature. A small point, but one none-the-less.

I'm guessing that in 25 years, there WILL be a good-quality,mass-made, affordable double available to hunters, assuming there is anything left to hunt. And will that double look like a fine British double? Ys'know, I think it might not. It might, however, in some way reflect the technology used to make it, just like the British double itself does.

As Daniel Patrick Moynahan said, there is a 200-year supply of guns in the USA. But how many of them are doubles?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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I think the more doubles sold to anyone, the more of a market will be developed and maybe "mainline" companies will start to consider the whole double rifle market as being worthwhile to pursue.

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I actully think there may be a bunch of truth to this.

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There is potentially huge interest in double rifles of usable quality at an affordable price.

The key to success or not, will be how much of standards will have to be traded for reducing the price.

If they look awful or worse simply don't shoot well enough they will flounder not doubt.

If in useful medium cartridges - great.

If in big bores, the issue will be over loading pressure for the un-initiated. Witness all the guys wanting to immediately rechamber .45/70's to .450 NE.

If a .450/400 was available in a 'cheap' double that would be a huge success.


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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (21/08/08 01:46 AM)

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By BBMike

I think George's quote above '' Hit the Nail on The Head '' ... Sometimes Affluence Brings out Poor Form in people despite ones supposed social class, & education. Isn't this forum about the love of firearms in general & not their dollar value ?

It shouldn't matter if we get from Point A to Point B in Life in either a VW Beetle or a Rolls Royce it should merely matter that we arrive safely & comfortably in what we personally deem necessary to spend.

AMEN!

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B_B_ mike, It doesn't matter to me how we get where we are going, as long as the vehicle is reliable! I simply don't like sitting on tne side of the road with a broke down car! for that matter I' much rather have the VW, than a Rolls if I had to put up with it's maintenance!

On the Rem/Biakal double rifle, my opinion is the rifle is, what it is, a $600 double rifle! I see no reason to denigrate it for being what it is. Clearly it is not going to be the equal to anything made in the treditional way of makeing a double rifle, that is a given, I think.

You assumption that if a person sees this rifle as a sub-bargain basement piece, automaticlly makes him/her a bore, is, in it's self a little elitest judgement on your part, and maybe the part of the origenal poster you quoted.

The Biakal/Rem double rifle, as I said, is what it is, and I see not fault in saying it is just that. It is, I think a fine start, that has a few problems in some cases, because of the inconsistant manufactureing process. Once the final rifle is done after fixing some of the problems that pop up from time to time on some of them, and they become a little more consistantly workable, they will get more respect. Because the problems that do pop up from time to time, being tied to shody workmanship, remedying them will cause the price to rise. With a base price now of the stated $600 USD, (is actually $900 here in the USA). The price could rise substantually, and still be cheap. I say the little rifle chambered for 45-70 is a good start for a nice little 30-30 canoe rifle with little 20" barrels. I would buy one of the 45-70s strictly for that purpose, re-barrel it with a pair of 1 in 10" twist .308 barrels, and chamber it to either 30-30, or 30-40 krieg, regulate it properly and put some real sights on it, and a low powered scope in QD rings and bases, and place it in the rack in my canoe. If I capsize, and loose it, well, it's better than looseing a $15K double, and as long as it is a reliable little rifle I could care less what it looks like, or who disagrees with my haveing it!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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If in big bores, the issue will be over loading pressure for the un-initiated. Witness all the guys wanting to immediately rechamber .45/70's to .450 NE.

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I don't know what peressures the .45/70 version will take, but even if held to 35,000PSI, that will put a 350gr. out at 2,100fps or 400's at 1,900fps. WONDERFULL!

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the max pressure is right on the barrel what is 2200BAR OR 31900HST what does that translate to.

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If in big bores, the issue will be over loading pressure for the un-initiated. Witness all the guys wanting to immediately rechamber .45/70's to .450 NE

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I bet the lion's share of buyers of .45-70 doubles wish they were .450's and plan in some fashion to make them such, or as close as they can till the barrels wobble.

I personally would not buy a SECOND-hand Baikal .45-70 unless I knew for certain sure that the gun had only been shot with pussywillow loads only.

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Ya tink?

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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