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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the bench
      #111432 - 10/08/08 05:07 AM

I shot 40 rounds through my 375 H&H today, recoil was not a factor, but my 375 is definitely too heavy. I did notice that if I didn't hold the forearm tightly with downward pressure from the becnh, the recoil off of the sandbags would change the point of impact. It seemed like the barrel was moving before the bullet left it. I've never noticed this with my faster shooting, lighter recoiling 270. Once I kept downward pressure on the barrel by holding the forearm tightly, it sighted in and behaved like my 270 does (without doing any of that). I was shooting 250g Swift A-Frames at 2760 fps (my elk load).

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"


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bigmaxx
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Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.
Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the bench [Re: chuck375]
      #111434 - 10/08/08 05:44 AM

When I shoot my .375 ruger from the bench I bring my left hand back to the rear bag and don't touch the forearm at all. I rest the rifle with the forearm checkering centered on the front bag. I zero all my fifles that way and havent had any problems. I am pretty sure the bullet has left the barrel before the muzzle rises. I have had some wierd stuff happen when other rests are used, like shooting sticks or bipods.

--------------------
One day at a time...


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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the bench [Re: bigmaxx]
      #111435 - 10/08/08 06:01 AM

That's a pretty common phenomenon with rifles that have some recoil.

In many years of building and shooting big rifles, I have to say, I have seen this kind of thing quite a bit. It’s a good idea to hold them firmly whenever you are shooting.

The rifle is starting to move as the bullet does. Don’t believe that old tail that “the bullets gone before the gun ever moves”. It’s not true!

So if you feather the rifle, or hold it gently, it’s possible to get good groups , if you are 100% consistent, but the group won’t be at the same point of impact as when the rifle’s held firmly.

As a rule, you should hold all hunting rifles snugly, from a 30-06 and up, in my openion..

Get a nice grip on them and develop the habit of doing the same thing every time.

I have a 375 that will outshoot most of my other rifles but it hits about 5” higher at 100 yds if you don’t hold on. I get much better results and tighter groups too (under 3/4 every time, and manytimes under 1/2” so this rifle is a real shooter) if I hold it firmly. If I don't I get about 2" out of it, and a hight group.


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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the bench [Re: szihn]
      #111440 - 10/08/08 06:32 AM

Thanks szihn, that's what I was seeing. I guess the phenomenon will be more pronounced when I rebore it to 470 Capstick.

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"


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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the bench [Re: chuck375]
      #111442 - 10/08/08 07:59 AM

yup, the more recoil you have, the more you will see this.
Also, the slower the bullet (more "barrel time") the more you see it.
As an example, in an 8 bore black powder rifle, it's far more apparent then it is in a 378 Weatherby.


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Con
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Reged: 24/05/04
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Loc: Victoria
Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the bench [Re: szihn]
      #111448 - 10/08/08 10:52 AM

I always hold onto my big kickers, otherwise your in for a lot of punishment. I once went from shooting an air-rifle 'free recoil' to doing the same with a 458Lott by accident ... wakes you up real fast! A good friend also sights his rifles from the bench to be a little to the left of aim as he finds when shooting offhand, it evens out for him.
Cheers...
Con


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ozhunter
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: Con]
      #111484 - 10/08/08 06:33 PM

I always hold the foreend of my rifles while shooting, be it hunting or at the range and have seen people have problems hitting the right spot on both Game and Targets by not holding the Forend correctly due to Muzzle jump.
Big calibers above say 338WM require a tighter hold and thats often the reason why people shooting lighter calibers F#@& up their shots less.


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hoppdoc
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: ozhunter]
      #111488 - 10/08/08 06:49 PM

Sorry to sound like an echo but shooting big bores kickers on the bench with no pressure or control of the forend results in strange placement accuracy vs a firm hold.In light recoiling rifles this technique seems to make little shoot placement effect. I assume its the bullet speed, stock configuration, and resistance to recoil involved.

I shoot with firm but not heavy foreend control off the bench or sticks.Seems to reproduce the groups noted in the field better for me.That's the ultimate similarity you wish to reproduce.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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bigmaxx
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Reged: 13/06/07
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: hoppdoc]
      #111500 - 10/08/08 10:51 PM

I will give that a try as well. My groups are a little bit different from the bench to sticks. I modified the way I shoot from the sticks with great success. I will see what that does on my bench shooting, although my bench groups are okay. Basically all my groups have been good, but I was having the POI change off the sticks.

--------------------
One day at a time...


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Tatume
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: bigmaxx]
      #111502 - 10/08/08 11:20 PM

A pillow sandbag goes on top of my bench rest pedistal. The rest is cranked up, and my left hand goes on the wide bag. With the butt plate firmly against the shoulder, and elbows on the bench, this is very similar to my sitting position, but steadier.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=RIBBRBOB&item=BAG23&type=store

My walking stick has a loop of rope at the top. My hand goes in the loop, and grasps the forend of the rifle. The position is exactly the same as shooting offhand, but steadier. The walking stick, homemade of oak, goes hunting with me.

In all practice sessions, the gun is held in the two hands, and the butt plate is to the shoulder.


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hoppdoc
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: Tatume]
      #111507 - 11/08/08 12:12 AM

I use something very similar when I walk & hunt

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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9.3x57
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: hoppdoc]
      #111512 - 11/08/08 01:25 AM

All good posts here.

One more reason I rarely shoot from the bench.

Fine bench groups are encouraging and certainly build feel-good confidence of a sort, but really are not the "reality" the gun is going to face in the field and don't say much about the rifle's field accuracy in the hands of the shooter. Groups produced from field positions do.

We zero {I call it "Rough Zeroing"} our rifles from the bench when checking a new load, mounting a scope, etc, then "Real Zero" from field positions. From bench with kickers, always grab the front end with your support hand.

We shoot from standing {no sticks} and from sitting, elbows rested on knees, primarily. IF a shot in the woods allows a forward rest {as leaning over a log, etc} the front end is always "hanged-on" by the offhand/support hand. This is what I've taught my family, and nobody has an excuse for blowing shots as they all have to pass a test to hunt each year anyway.

I have a theory that many years ago, when rifles began to acquire actual mechanical accuracy of MOA, this mechanical achievement was so extraordinary, gunwriters were so impressed they impressed upon the shooting public the wonderful new reality, and it took the US world by storm and over time in the USA, rifleshooting became 95% benchresting and 5% practical field shooting.

We here have turned these numbers around here on my place, and frankly, it has done a lot for our game killing. We have precious few chances at game, we gotta make the best of every shot! I might add, that other shooters in other nations did not necessarily take the benchrest thing hook line and sinker, and some are even required not to in a sense, as they have to take shooting tests to hunt, tests that preclude the use of benchrest technique.

Chuck, the real deal is to forget where the thing hits off the bags. Adopt a solid field position {we use sitting} and then do most of your shooting from that, making scope adjustments as necessary. Try it and I think you will find your comfort with the gun and skill in the field will go up, and the differences between sitting and standing are less than from bench to sitting, bench to standing, etc.

Your groups may not be as fine as what you can get off the bench, but your field position groups are REAL groups. Yeah, you might have to let the benchboys go on about sub-MOA groups ad nauseum, but just wait till you get into the field!

A real life example:

My wife shooting her test last Wednesday. Range 100 meters {109 yards}:



Results:



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: hoppdoc]
      #111514 - 11/08/08 01:26 AM

Ditto that---walking sticks make awesome rests for the quick longer shots...

As to the "big kickers" --I reach under and around my front rest and hold on to the front or the gun...seems to work well...however I don't shoot a ton from the bench once the guns are sighted in and shooting well...prefer to shoot and practice from hunting positions and off hand...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: Ripp]
      #111515 - 11/08/08 01:32 AM

Quote:

Ditto that---walking sticks make awesome rests for the quick longer shots...

As to the "big kickers" --I reach under and around my front rest and hold on to the front or the gun...seems to work well...however I don't shoot a ton from the bench once the guns are sighted in and shooting well...prefer to shoot and practice from hunting positions and off hand...

Ripp




Follow this guy's posts and you'll find out his "practice" involves shooting big huge truckloads of game!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: 9.3x57]
      #111519 - 11/08/08 03:15 AM

Thanks all, I think I'm all squared away.



Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: 9.3x57]
      #111523 - 11/08/08 04:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Ditto that---walking sticks make awesome rests for the quick longer shots...

As to the "big kickers" --I reach under and around my front rest and hold on to the front or the gun...seems to work well...however I don't shoot a ton from the bench once the guns are sighted in and shooting well...prefer to shoot and practice from hunting positions and off hand...

Ripp




Follow this guy's posts and you'll find out his "practice" involves shooting big huge truckloads of game!!





WHY...Can't we all just get along.....

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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9.3x57
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: Ripp]
      #111532 - 11/08/08 06:21 AM

I think we all wish our practice was shooting big truckloads of game!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: 9.3x57]
      #111535 - 11/08/08 06:27 AM

I-too use the fore-end hole when shooting anything but my varmint rigs. They don't change POI, but all my kickers do if not held as if in a hunting postion. That way, with the left knuckles resting on the front bag, fore-end held snuggly just as if shooting offhand, ther is no POI change between load testing, sighting in and hunting.
; Heh, heh, I-too wish all my practise was at game - unfortunately, only the gopher busting is at animals and usually not more than a couple thousand a season. Good offhand, kneeling and sitting practise, though, with hunting weight rifles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: DarylS]
      #111539 - 11/08/08 06:57 AM

Once I get my 470 Capstick up and running if anyone has some prairie dogs that I can scare to death with it near Colorado Springs let me know ...



Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: 9.3x57]
      #111542 - 11/08/08 07:25 AM

Quote:

I think we all wish our practice was shooting big truckloads of game!





I know you are kidding--but supposedly there is somewhere Downunder one can go to and shoot up to 25 buffalo for a reasonable price..12k..now that would be a truck load...and a ton of fun..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Paul
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: Ripp]
      #111565 - 11/08/08 12:15 PM

...except for the buffalo. Shutup, Paul, you're sounding like an animalarian.

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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
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Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: Paul]
      #111578 - 11/08/08 03:29 PM

Check this old thread from April - http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post103063

I am repeating my post below.

....FWIW - here are some of my conclusions.

1 If the barrel is not free floated & the rifle is not bedded, the point of impact will change between shooting off hand , off a bench rest, a sticks or off a pack in the field or off your palm cushioning against a rock or a tree.
2 This change in point of impact varies from rifle to rifle. Some will change 3 or 4 inches & others just 0.5 inch. It used to drive nuts until I came to conclusion 1 above.
3 Point of impact will also change between a cold & hot barrel or a dirty & clean barrel - again each rifle is different & some change more than others.
4 Even with bedded & free floated rifles, the point of impact will change if you rest it on a hard surface like a bench rest or a log. The bounce at the time of detonating the primer seems to affect the barrel vibration & shots tend to go high.
5 The change in impact is minimised if the rifle is rested on the magazine just in front of the trigger guard & this hard rest is behind the cartridge / chamber & does not seem to affect impact change as much. If the fore-end is cushioned by the palm over the hard surface it also reduces variance in impact.
6 If you rest the barrel on a shooting stick, the point of impact will change all over the place as the barrel vibration nodes will not be the same for each shot. If you rest the fore-end on a shooting stick, make sure that the stick has a soft pad to absorb vibrations or rest your palm on the stick (if possible).

I would like to hear the views of others with more experience on the matter.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: Nakihunter]
      #111589 - 11/08/08 11:29 PM

Thanks, I was taught to "call my shots" at an early age. So after finally getting the rifle sighted in by holding the rifle tightly against my shoulder and by the forearm against the sandbag. I then shot 10 shots offhand and 5 shots sitting at 100 yards. The shots went where I "called" them. So I'm satisfied that my rifle will shoot where I aim it. Not to say I don't need more practice offhand (which I do). The rifle is heavier than I'm used to so I plan to do a lot of dry firing practice using a snap cap which will get my form back and strengthen those weird little muscles in my left arm that hold up the rifle lol ...

Regards

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"


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DarylS
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Puzzling behavior sighting in my 375 H&H off of the benc [Re: chuck375]
      #111597 - 12/08/08 01:51 AM

Nakihunter - you've pretty much got it covered.
; The biggest benefit of free-floating is having a rifle that will put 5 consecutive shots into the same place. Of course, this is most important for the match shooter, very much less so for the hunter. Some bedded rifles will put all 5 into the same group, cold to hot, but most won't.
; I've fully bedded many rifles and had to remove the forend bedding on some to convert to free-floating, some didn't need it.
; The problem comes mainly from the taper of the chamber portion of the barrel being bedded. As the barel heats, it causes undue stress on the barrel's mating with the stock, throwing shots.
; With plasic and fiberglass stocks, I always free float quite liberally. I like to be able to pull a rig-coated cloth down between the barrel and the stock after a rainy hunt. Too, the plastics seemt o move more than a good wooden or laminated stock and the barrel needs more room in the channet to eliminate the possibility of hitting the stock as it whips. Most BR shooters I knew back in the 70's and 80's left a lot of room between the barrels and stocks for just this whipping reason, although the barrels were large, they just couldn't take the chance of barrel/stock contact. These match shooters also set up their hunting rifles ina similar manner.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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