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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders.
      #101563 - 04/04/08 10:43 PM

Hi,
I think some of you would be interested in this uncommon information, so I want to share it with you.
For some time my friend Saverio Bonazza manufacture a solid nitro charge for his underhammer rifle. This charge was almost pure nitrocellulose and he developed a way to use it in a .50 rifle.
It was easy to load, it have almost no residue and develop less pressure than black powder according to his experiments (he made a pressure gun with crushers).
Unfortunately my friend left us two years ago and his grand son do not have experience to continue making the solid charge.





Thanks
Martin

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
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Re: Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders. [Re: beleg2]
      #101572 - 05/04/08 12:00 AM

Great post, Martin.

I've always wondered why a nitro-for-black powder COULDN'T be developed.

Wasn't the old Schultze powder pure nitrocellulose?

I'm devoid of knowledge of chemistry, but I'd love to hear why it can't be done, especially as it looks like Martin's friend did it!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #101573 - 05/04/08 12:08 AM

W.W. Greener's "The Gun and it's Development" covers most of the early smokeless loads and powders, from King's Semi-Smokeless to Shultze, Scheutzen and others.
: I've wondered the same thing, 9.3, but has something to do with cost of mfg. compared to return, of course. BP has certain properties the military needs, as in being a good primer for the super-slow, powerful powders used in cannon, etc. Nitrocellulose lacks the easy-start, I guess and since BP is cheaper to make, that's what they do. All theory on my part.
; Interesting stuff, Martin. Do you use BP as a kicker?
; The Pyrodex pellets have a Bp skin on one end just for that purpose. Even with that, the inlines do give some trouble igniting that stuff, which is more of a nitro than black. It's fouling, although minor in amount, is also corrosive.
; What's the chemical compositon of your friend's powder's fouling, as it changes with combustion.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders. [Re: DarylS]
      #101584 - 05/04/08 01:22 AM

Hi,
It is almost pure nitrocellulose so it leaves almost no residue.
It was so easy to make that he handmade it on the cellar (no electricity for safety).
It is all in the “secret” method to make them but I promise him not to tell it. Sorry.
You can use it alone in underhammer guns but need some BP as a primer in capslocks.
He offered them in .50 only as he also made .50 underhammer rifles and pistols and a curious three barreled underhammer carbine..
If you are interested in some information I can try to translate one of the articles I wrote about.
This is how it burns.


This is the residue.


Thanks
Martin

PS: this is not much traditional. Sorry.LOL

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3489
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders. [Re: beleg2]
      #101646 - 05/04/08 12:44 PM

A replacement 'Schultze' powder, ie smokeless 'volume-for-volume' BP equivalent, would be marvellous IMHO, but not as a solid which rules it out for 'N-for-B' cartridge loads.

I have been following the 'Black Mag' -> Clear Shot -> Clean Shot -> 777 evolution for several years now, in utter despair! How hard can it be???

beleg2:
Sounds like your friend was onto something. Can you convince the grandson to sell the 'secret' to a consortium, perhaps organised by Sinner?

Money to be made all round, I suspect...!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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beleg2
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Posts: 591
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Re: Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders. [Re: Marrakai]
      #101693 - 05/04/08 11:32 PM

Marrakai,
I do not know if they would send "the secret".
This is one of the best invention for muzzleloaders in many years. There is no easier way to load a muzzleloader.
Thanks
Martin

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders. [Re: beleg2]
      #101696 - 05/04/08 11:57 PM

Martin - what sort of ballistics are involved? You said it develops less pressure than BP - what are the velcoities?
: Is this at the same velocity?
: How does it work with round balls or does it only work with slugs?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders. [Re: DarylS]
      #101702 - 06/04/08 12:16 AM

You asked for it, Beleg!

More questions...

What happens if the pellet is crushed and a match is put to it?

Is there some sort of chemical ignoter in the center of the tube?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #101754 - 06/04/08 09:04 AM

So, you are interested……. LOL.
I will try to answer all the questions. I wish you can get here and try it yourself.

Daryl,
The ballistic was the same, less pressure with the same speed. I’m not sure but was something like 800fps for one charge and 1200 fps with two for MaxiBall. I will chrono them as soon as I get time to make some shooting.
It was designed to be used with a MaxiBall but I have used it with RB without a problem.

9three,
The charge is a hollow tube of nitrocellulose but you need a “secret” way to make it.
It is dangerous to compress while loading. You throw one or two charges down the bore and then you push the bullet until it stops no the charges.
You do not need an igniter as long as you use a direct firing system like the underhammer (I think in-lines too) but if you want to use them in a capslock you would need to pour some BP before the charges, as an igniter.
It is so simple, is incredible, but as I promise my friend never tell the secret I can not explain much more. I know how to make them but there is no market for them here in Argentina.

Saverio had a dream, that was to make rifles. Because of the laws he decide to make a muzzleloading rifle.
When he finish it, he found that it was not easy for everyone to shoot black powder and round ball, so he decide to make a system everyone can use. He designed the system but as muzzleloaders are few in Argentina………
Saverio was my mentor, I learn a lot from him, not only guns but how to live, the honor, etc.

I share this information with you as I know you can appreciate it and I do not want it to be forgeted.

Thanks
Martin


PS: If you have an invester interested in it please let me know (not for me but for his family).

Edited by beleg2 (06/04/08 09:06 AM)

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Bramble
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Re: Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders. [Re: beleg2]
      #101815 - 06/04/08 10:49 PM

One of the things on my very long list to get around to, is some further experimentation on the "Trail Boss" powder.

I have a .38 SAA for which I made a muzzle loading cylinder to comply with our regulations.

Using a cylinder full of Trail boss and 357 SWC heads it is so sweet and smooth to shoot and the accuracy is astounding.
I gave it to a club member who is a former Olympic pistol shot and he shot an offhand 6 shot 25 yard group which was as good as any of the .38 long barrel revolvers. About 1 1/2"

The powder was measured out of a flask so was not tightly controlled.

We were both flabergasted.

I think that it has potential in larger cartridges for low pressure applications and perhaps for true muzzle loading rifles. It bulks up the same as black.

Has anybody tried it ?

Regards

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders. [Re: Bramble]
      #111010 - 04/08/08 12:44 AM

Bramble- this might be a very dangerous 'thing' to attempt to copy. Converting a SAA to cap 'n ball is one thing. Trying Trail Boss in a gun originally designed for black powder might be antoehr- and loading it in a rifle might just be disasterous. Trail boss delivers very sedate ballistics, but developes considerable pressure in doing so. It's breech pressures match any other load out there, while delivering su-standard speeds. Just because the velocity is low does not mean the pressure is as well.
: For example, in the .45/70's etc, speeds of over 1,000fps are difficult to achieve, all the while it is developing pressures matching laods that are too heavy for a trapdoor- over 25,000psi. Yes, it's a pussy cat to shoot, BUT - it's pressures are more in line with a tiger's bite.
; Some BP ctg. gun loads latch smokeless for overall breech pressure, BUT black powder developes it's pressure over a very different curve and this pressure curve is why BP guns blow up when using smokeless powders.
; I'd hate to hear of someone who read your initial post and think he can use trail boss in his rifle - or single shot pistol. People do stupid things, not to mention that when polled, 43% of the US baby boomer population indicated they wished to support their retirement from the proceeds of a law suit. That means many are just looking for an excuse to sue someone else.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
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Re: Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders. [Re: DarylS]
      #111012 - 04/08/08 01:45 AM

From my reading of old books, the biggest problem they had in the old days with nitrocellulose as a propellant was that it was very erosive. Now I can't say if modern additives would prevent the erosion of the bore, and also the use of better steels in the barrels, so perhaps it would not be the problem it once was.
But in the 1890s to the 1920s most nitro substitutes for black powder were failures for that reason. Guns that had a bore life of 20,000 rounds of black powder had a bore life of 1,000 with nitro, and some were washed out in as little as 400 rounds.
The additions of tin was a big step forward in this too. But I have no modern data on the subject
SZ

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Marrakai
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Re: Nitro solid charge for muzzleloaders. [Re: szihn]
      #111058 - 04/08/08 06:35 PM

Quote:

the biggest problem they had in the old days with nitrocellulose as a propellant was that it was very erosive.


Steve:
My understanding is that early double-based 'powders' like Cordite (which contains nitro-cellulose and nitro-glycerine) were erosive because they burned at much higher temperatures than nitro-cellulose alone.

Also, early powders were not coated to slow-down ignition so probably burned a little hotter in the throat because of that. In other words, modern powders burn cooler because they are progressive burners due to the coating. That includes modern double-based powders too.

That's just my take on things, but if its off the mark I'm ready to be educated!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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