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mikeh416Rigby
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Scary Moment - What Happened?
#111026 - 04/08/08 07:56 AM

Went to the range to day with a friend who is leaving in 12 days for an Elephant, Buffalo, and Lion hunt. He was shooting his .470 NE Chapuis offhand. As he fired a shot, the action opened, and the unfired round was ejected back into his face, cutting him on the face, just below his right eye. The case of the fired round was completely seperated @ 1/2 above the base of the case. The only thing we can surmise is that the action wasn't closed 100%, but that it was closed, just enough, to permit it to fire. It was quite a scary moment. What are your thoughts on what might have caused this?

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bigmaxx
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
#111027 - 04/08/08 08:12 AM

It seems to be that the fired case should have been intact unless the brass was flawed or a reloading error occurred. I have had similar incidents with shotguns in the past. Ignition and firing should have been completed before it opened prematurely I would think. I'm no expert by any stretch though.

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Nakihunter
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: bigmaxx]
#111028 - 04/08/08 09:10 AM

Was that a reload or a factory round? I would certainly be worried if I had to use that rifle & ammo in 12 days on dangerous game.

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Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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Bramble
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Nakihunter]
#111032 - 04/08/08 10:20 AM

That Rifle need to go back to Chapuis now. Or a compitent gunsmith. Before your friend goes abroad.

If those were handloads then tear the whole lot apart dump the powder and start from scratch.
Or better yet deep six the lot and buy some factory Federals for the trip.

The only way I can see for this to happen is that the action closed but the top lever dident come over to bring the bolts into battery. Is it auto safety ? I havent examined this model. If so it would be impossible to take the safety off in this condition. If not then a bit of shit on the action flats would allow the gun to appear closed but just the very tip of the bolts engaging. That is very scary !!

Regards

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hoppdoc
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
#111034 - 04/08/08 10:25 AM

Sounds scary indeed--

Don't think I want to use those rounds if they were handloads-- But if he wasn't shooting handloads??
Is the gun now damaged goods? How should it be checked??

Betcha all the folks here with Double expertise can give us the pertinent factors involved and potential problems-

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (04/08/08 10:32 AM)

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Bramble]
#111037 - 04/08/08 11:52 AM

Ok, here's an update. We just got back from his gunsmith, who also did the reloading. First of all, the fellow has been reloading professionaly for over 20 years, and has never had a problem with a single round. Upon examining the spent rounds, half of them showed a slight ring @ 1/2 inch up from the base of the case. After this, it was determined that the left barrel (the one that had the case seperate) showed borderline excessive head space. From watching my friend shoot, I also believe that he may have had the side of his thumb in contact with the action lever, and upon recoil, the rearward movement caused the lever to come into firmer contact with his thumb causing the action to open. My friend was also wearing a shooting glove at the time, and may not have felt the thumb in contact with the lever. Does this make any sense to you guys?

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hoppdoc
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
#111038 - 04/08/08 12:22 PM

If his thumb was in contact with the action lever then he had virtually no grasp on the rifle.To hold a gun that way feels unnatural. Betcha the action lever was stiff and wasn't totally closed at firing.

Was the action off face? Are the hulls defective? Have the other hulls been mic'd? I doubt the mild pressures of Doubles would affect the primer pocket like rifles--What did the primer look like?

Scary situation. I am a nimrod and I would defer to more knowledgible folks but I think I would take another rifle on that trip unless the Double gets cleaned and goes thru 50 factory loads with out problems(after a gunsmith feels its ok to shoot).

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: hoppdoc]
#111039 - 04/08/08 12:26 PM

This was a new rifle, purchased at the SCI Convention this year. It has had perhaps 50 rounds through it since he purchased it. At the time it was purchased, the action opened and closed rather hard. It has since loosened up somewhat. All primer pockets look normal. The brass is from Bell, and were new.

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Bramble
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: hoppdoc]
#111040 - 04/08/08 12:31 PM

I cannot imagine how you can shoot any double with the thumb that high up the grip ? I just tried to do it on mine and it is just plain un-natural unless you have enormous hands.

But I supose it could be done, It would hurt like hell though I would have thought having been smacked by a trigger guard on the second finger a time or two.
I do not wish to be rude but if that is his technique for shooting a DG double then he really needs to consider his options before putting himself in harms way.
If his departure is imminent then I would rturn the rifle (because of the excess headspace) and borrow a large caliber bolt gun for the trip.

Regards

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mickey
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Bramble]
#111049 - 04/08/08 02:00 PM

I have to agree with Bramble on rethinking his choice of weapons. If their is a problem than having a repeat while trying to shoot an Elephant would increase everyone's pucker factor.

It also sounds like his gunsmith didn't inspect the case well enough or he would have noticed the ringing. Not very professional.

I have had similar ringing problems with Norma Brass in 9.3x74R and the case heads does separate. I can't believe that is what caused the rifle to spring open though.

How many rounds has he fired? You get a feel for a familiar rifle being right. I would have thought an action that was not locked would have been noted by the shooter.

Send the rifle back and pick another for the trip. Also shit can the brass and just save the bullets.

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4seventy
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
#111060 - 04/08/08 06:41 PM

Mike,
Some interesting things happened there.

My gut feeling on this is that the gun had not closed properly and that the bolting was only just engaging by a whisker. By this I mean that the top lever had not come back to its closed position and was sitting way off to the right. This would result in the bolting not being correctly engaged.
Maybe one of the two loaded rounds prevented the action from closing normally because it was tight in the chamber.
This could be caused by insufficient resizing of the case body, shoulder too far forward, neck wall too thick etc.
If the gun has not closed properly, and the bolting is not fully home in the barrel bites, there will most likely be a gap between the barrel and action faces which will result in excess headspace and an off face condition.
This could have caused the seperation when the gun was fired, even if the pressures of the handloads were within spec.
It's possible the shooter may have bumped the top lever slightly as the gun was fired, or the bolting may have released from the jarr of firing the gun if it was only just engaged by a tiny amount.

This is why it is very important to ensure all cartridges correctly fit BOTH chambers of double rifles.
This is done with the barrels removed and cartridges are checked in both chambers to ensure that they do not protrude past the barrel face and that they freely drop in and out of the chambers with no resistance.

Hope this helps.
Gotta go get dinner but I'll get back to this one later.

Edited by 4seventy (04/08/08 06:44 PM)

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peter
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: mickey]
#111061 - 04/08/08 06:43 PM

this must be another vote for the jones underlever......

besides that i must agree with the little brit.

best regards

peter

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Huvius
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: peter]
#111082 - 05/08/08 01:43 AM

I agree with all responses here. It's hard to say exactly what happened here - scary situation indeed...
This is a confirmation to me that the noise that a quality double makes upon closing is indeed one of the most beautiful sounds there is.
I cannot even describe that sound with words. Not metallic, not wooden, not pingy, not dull, just a sound of solid security - beautiful!

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bwananelson
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Huvius]
#111094 - 05/08/08 04:34 AM

three of the big five and have to worry about the gun also hope the PH is a good shot.i would try new ammo on lesser game or targets then make a plan.now every time he pulls the trigger this will be in the back of his head this is not a safe,nor does this build trust in a rifle you put your life on the line with.the maker has a good rep and nothing happen the first fifty rounds.i would think it was the reload,but to open i dont know even my merkle is stiff aafter 50 rounds,my second thought is this hunt is a big one in money and time my biggest hunt to date was a mountain grizzly hunt and i berned up 400+ rounds in practice.but i assume he has more time behind other doubles to make up for the short time with this new gun.does he have a back up plan....

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tinker
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: bwananelson]
#111100 - 05/08/08 05:57 AM

Shooting glove?
With a double rifle?

I haven't ever been able to make sense of the 'shooting glove' phenomenon. Just doesn't make sense to me at all.
On that, the shooter also seems to have a pretty strange way of holding onto his rifle.
That combination of
'not really holding onto the wrist of the rifle'
plus
'resting the thumb of the shooting hand against the left side of the toplever'
plus a shooting glove sounds like a recipe for disaster any way I look at it.
Is the glove there to protect his thumb from the toplever?

--Tinker

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bigmaxx
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: tinker]
#111102 - 05/08/08 06:20 AM

Quote:

Shooting glove?
With a double rifle?

I haven't ever been able to make sense of the 'shooting glove' phenomenon. Just doesn't make sense to me at all.
On that, the shooter also seems to have a pretty strange way of holding onto his rifle.
That combination of
'not really holding onto the wrist of the rifle'
plus
'resting the thumb of the shooting hand against the left side of the toplever'
plus a shooting glove sounds like a recipe for disaster any way I look at it.
Is the glove there to protect his thumb from the toplever?

--Tinker

I use a shooting glove when sighting or shooting from a benchrest position with my big bore bolt actions. Some have floorplate releases that have a tendency to peel the skin from the nuckle of the trigger finger. Usually happens so fast I dont feel it, just look down and see blood. I dont know about using it with a double rifle, but I have hunted with side by side shotguns with all sorts of gloves without incident. The gloves were for warmth rather than protection.

--------------------
One day at a time...

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: bigmaxx]
#111107 - 05/08/08 07:54 AM

I can understand why that would have been disconcerting and frustrating. Here are my thoughts.

1) The underbolts weren't fully engaged to begin with, and the shooter didn't notice it because the gun is new and somewhat stiff, and he's unfamiliar with it.

2) Due to lack of experience with the rifle (and, worse, my guess is probably the type as well), he used a shooting technique wholly inappropriate for the type, which resulted in the thumb of his shooting hand hitting the toplever under recoil causing the action to open.

3) I'm with Tinker on the glove. I think the likelihood of No. 2 above is exacerbated by the use of a glove on the shooting hand. I can't imagine doing so with a double rifle. On the forward hand, yes, but on the shooting hand, no. The larger bore the double, the less sense it makes to me. For this to be the cause of the incident, the shooting hand had to be moving around some on the gun during recoil, and that shouldn't happen.

4) The handloaded ammunition remains an unknown. The fact that the loader has handloaded professionally for 20 years isn't germane at all, unless he's substantially experienced in doing so for double rifles. If he isn't, the ammunition is suspect.

5)

Quote:

This was a new rifle, purchased at the SCI Convention this year. It has had perhaps 50 rounds through it since he purchased it.

...and he's leaving on a hunt for three of the big five in 12 days? It would have been impossible for him, or the rifle, to have been ready for him to make this hunt with it. Especially if this is his first double rifle (and it sounds like it might be), he's not even gotten started yet. I hope he has an appropriate rifle that he's more experienced with to use on the hunt. This one needs to stay at home.

I don't mean to rain on this gentleman's parade at all, but the description of the incident above makes me think that he's new to the type and has underestimated the learning curve. I watch new DR shooters regularly. The transition is often bumpy.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: tinker]
#111109 - 05/08/08 09:49 AM

Quote:

Shooting glove?
With a double rifle?

I haven't ever been able to make sense of the 'shooting glove' phenomenon. Just doesn't make sense to me at all.
On that, the shooter also seems to have a pretty strange way of holding onto his rifle.
That combination of
'not really holding onto the wrist of the rifle'
plus
'resting the thumb of the shooting hand against the left side of the toplever'
plus a shooting glove sounds like a recipe for disaster any way I look at it.
Is the glove there to protect his thumb from the toplever?

--Tinker

He took up the shooting glove because of the long (reach) for him, to reach the front trigger, and as a result, he was getting rapped pretty hard on the middle finger by the trigger guard when the rifle was fireing.

Note: edited to read "middle finger", rather than trigger finger.

Edited by mikeh416Rigby (05/08/08 11:13 AM)

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Bramble
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
#111117 - 05/08/08 10:57 AM

Mike

That gun plain does not fit him.

That is not a slur on him at all, but it is the reason that in the grand old days guns were tailored for the individual. That most of us cannot now afford the bespoke service results in situations like this.
He can learn to shoot this gun, but a better solution than expending the money necessary on ammunition would be to have somebody alter the trigger plate and guard to bring things properly within his hand span. 1/2" or so would make al the difference.

I have relitivly small hands and they are a little stiff from work, so I had to cut really rough checkering on the underside of the grip of my double to get a good purchase, as altering the circumference was not a posibility. This was a poor, but effective solution. Before that I bruised the middle finger to the bone.
I hope that he can sort something out, but I would not take that gun against DG in this situation.

Regards

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4seventy
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
#111156 - 05/08/08 08:12 PM

I'm having a hard time believing that anyone could accidently bump a top lever from the fully closed position to the open position during recoil, even with an inexperienced (to doubles) shooter, with a gloved trigger hand, with a .470, or whatever else you can think of.
No matter how bad the hand position or the technique used, it would be damn hard to have your thumb push that top lever all the way so the gun flys open during recoil, if the lever was in the fully closed position to start with.
That's a sideways movement which would not be easy to do with the gun recoiling pretty well straight back.

It would be a very different story if the gun was not properly closed, and the top lever was sitting in the almost open position.
In that position the top lever is sitting out to the right.
If the shooter had his thumb lying on the top strap, and resting against the top lever, it would be quite possible for the recoil to drive the the top lever against the thumb and cause the lever to open the gun.

My feeling is that the bolting was barely engaged when the gun was fired and the shooters thumb was incorrectly positioned on top of the gun and resting against the top lever.
This would also explain why the fired case seperated.

It's easy to "blame" the shooter due to his possible limited experience in handling double rifles.
Keep in mind that we were all new to doubles at some time.

Edited by 4seventy (05/08/08 08:23 PM)

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CptCurl
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: 4seventy]
#111162 - 05/08/08 09:25 PM

I agree with 4seventy.

You also must consider that if the gun was properly bolted shut at the moment of recoil there would be some pressure on the bolts. This pressure would resist whatever slight pressure the shooter could have exerted on the top lever during recoil.

Also consider the time delay. The recoil is relatively slow compared to the flight of the bullet in the barrel. Think of the recoil of the slide and barrel of a 1911 .45acp - the action that unlocks that mechanism and results in cycling the gun. By the time the rifle has recoiled and enough pressure has been exerted against the toplever to open the action the bullet is long gone and pressure is down to nothing.

To me the head separation, in conjunction with the other occurrences, indicates the gun wasn't fully in battery. How it could fire in that position is a mystery to me, but I am unfamiliar with the Chapuis lock design.

I also have no faith in reloaded ammo from somebody else, no matter how "experienced". I think this gent should get some factory ammo and do the routine of tying the rifle to a spare tire (or tyre if in Oz) and pulling the triggers with strings. It will do just fine, I predict.

That's my take on it, FWIW.

Curl

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rigbymauser
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: peter]
#111185 - 06/08/08 04:53 AM

Quote:

this must be another vote for the jones underlever......

besides that i must agree with the little brit.

best regards

peter

Its time now to reinstate the Jones underlever, backaction, rebounding hammerrifle

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CptCurl
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: rigbymauser]
#111200 - 06/08/08 11:18 AM

I'm all for it.

Curl

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JPK
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: CptCurl]
#111262 - 07/08/08 01:37 PM

I believe the reason the fellow's middle finger was getting wacked by the trigger gaurd is because of his odd and less than firm and secure grip. No way to firmly hold the rifle with your thumb along the top lever. So on recoil the rifle is moving not in concert with the shooter but loosly, all over the place relative to how it would move with a firm and proper grip.

(Got to wonder about the firmness of the forward hand's grip on the barrels too, under the circumstances.)

With the not inconsequential recoil of a 470 and the rifle moving entirely too freely in recoil because of the weak grip, I'm guessing that the rifle opened because the shooters thumb pushed the top lever open.

Now the question becomes, "Was the action properly closed to begin with?" If yes than the reloads and chamber are both in question. If no then the head seperation could possibly, maybe have been caused or exacerbated by the extra length caused by the less than fully closed action. Either way using a set of go no-go gauges will eliminate the possibility of a too long chamber. If no gauges are available, ditch the reloads (would do that in any circumstances since time is too limited to rule the ammo ok or trouble along with all the other possibilities to be ruled out,) shoot some Federals with the rifle tied to a tire as Curl suggests and see what happens. Check the brass from that chamber and see how it fared.

If the rifle behaved for a few rounds and the spent brass checked out the I'd try with a proper grip and the Federal ammo. The fellow will probably find that the rifle doesn't recoil nearly so much with a proper firm grip. I'd also take the care to push the top lever to make sure it is where it should be before firing.

I'll second the recomendation (really a requirement) that all ammo should be checked in both chambers before a trip for game, especially dangerous game. Also, ammo ought to be checked at 90* rotation four repetitions in each chamber, you would be supprised at how much brass is out of round at the base or not square to the base.

Best of luck to the fellow in the short time available to work this through and regain confidence in himself and his rifle.

JPK

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Huvius
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: JPK]
#111292 - 08/08/08 03:21 AM

I was thinking about this a little bit more and I think for the unfired round to be ejected, the barrels must have been dropped way down. An ejector operates at almost the full open breech position - obviously so the shells will clear the fences upon ejection.
One possibility is that the shooter's grip wasn't what it should have been, and in an effort to regain control of the wayward gun just after firing the first barrel, the top lever was inadvertently pushed over, and, as the shooter recovered from the recoil with motion transfering back forward, the barrels dropped and the shells ejected.
This all could have happened without conscious effort I think...

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