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wombat
.300 member

Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Australia

Butch Searcy's double rifles
#11095 - 07/03/04 10:28 AM

Has anyone have any knowledge of the doubles Butch searcy
has for sale?
Reliable? Has anyone had any dealings with his business?
It is difficult to assess these things when you live in Australia

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475Guy
.400 member

Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: wombat]
#11099 - 07/03/04 11:31 AM

I believe 500 Grains and Ray Atkinson have Searcy DB's. Everyone who has handled one or shot one have nothing but good things to say about the Searcy product. It is a newly manufactured DB that is made in Boron, Ca. Do a search on the various threads and you'll get the gist of it all.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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700nitro
.224 member

Reged: 03/03/04
Posts: 10

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: wombat]
#11103 - 07/03/04 12:11 PM

i owen 2 searcy rifles a presidental grade 700 nitro express box lock underlever and a 500 nitro ph grade

will be taking pics of the 700 nitro soon to post up and the 500 nitro will be in at the end of this month.

he makes the best double rifles in the usa and his stuff even beats most stuff that comes out of europe...makes like hyme,kreigoff,merkle,chapuis.

and searcy delux/president grade rifles can easyly be compared to the best h&h rifle. h&h are grossly and mean sickly over priced.
but hey if you wanna pay 20,000 for the gun and another 50,000+$ for the h&h name go right ahead.

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: wombat]
#11105 - 07/03/04 12:52 PM

They are nice rifles for the price, a good value. I found their older models pretty clubby but the new PH Model is said to be much improved. Don't get confused and think they are comparable to a Best Grade British Rifle. In quality or cost.

For equal money I would buy a quality, used Brit rifle without a doubt. I just can't see buying a new rifle and taking the depriciation when I can get an equal or better used rifle for the same price. I won't spend big bucks on a rifle I can't sell for a profit if I want.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39261
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: wombat]
#11109 - 07/03/04 02:37 PM

Wombat

I assume you are an Aussie?

I wonder if there is a single one in Australia unless the guy in Qld has got his yet, which the lucky bugger won in a raffle for free (plus freight, fees and GST

).

I would think that if paying the US price, freight and insurance, customs brokers (etc) fees plus GST on the whole lot, it would be cheaper to buy a good English "name" double in Aust.

And it would have re-sale value too.

Why not a Merkel which seem to sell for a good price here if you want a factory one?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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atkinson6
.375 member

Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: NitroX]
#11175 - 08/03/04 02:31 PM

I have the new PH model and its a little trimmer and slicker than the older guns, and mine shoots both bullet into one hole darn near every time..

These are using guns and were never ment to compete with a high grade English, but they sure are stronger, you can shoot monolithic bullets in them and I feel a lot better hauling it off to Africa, than I did my English guns..I can insure it with my household insurance and it can be replaced if lost or stolen...

If your a hunter and not a collector, then the Searcy is the way to go....

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
#11352 - 11/03/04 01:26 AM

Searcy.

I have a Searcy field grade .500 NE with a minor upgrade on the wood. Generally the field grade did not come with options, so mine is a standard rifle except that the wood is slightly nicer than normal.

The rifle fits me perfectly and comes up and swings very nicely. Some European doubles are ultra-thin and almost feel like a .410 shotgun. A Searcy in contrast is built to be stout and durable and is not as thin as its European counterparts. Then again, a Searcy lasts forever. There is a man in California who shot his Searcy field grade .470 NE more than 6000 times and it still did not come off face. Try that with a European double!

As for accuracy, my Searcy shoots better than I can see at 50 yards, and that is impressive. Overall I am quite delighted with my Searcy rifle and plan to drop not less than 2 elephants with it this fall.

The good news for prospective Searcy buyers is that the lead time for a Searcy, which used to be 9 or 10 months, has been dramatically reduced. Even when it was 9 or 10 months, the wait was well worth it.

Comparing Searcy to the competition, here are my views:

Merkel.

Sticky cross bolt issues and rumors of doubling and going off face. The off face problem may have been related to chambering the rifle in .416 rigby which was not a bright idea. Or it may be related to the fact that the Merkel is built on a 20 gauge shotgun which was not designed for the thrust and pressure of the rifle cartridges. Some people are happy with their Merkels, however, and Merkel does offer some pretty low prices. I understand that the doubling problem has not been heard about much lately so perhaps Merkel solved it, and say away from the rimless cartridges. But even then beware the sticky cross bolt and Merkels are not as stout and durable as Searcy.

Krieghoff.

First you need to cope with that weird cocking piece/safety thing which I find slow and cumbersome. Other than that I do not have any particular problem with the Krieghoff, but it does not make me feel excited either. I strongly prefer the more classic Searcy design. Boddington likes Krieghoff which is another red flag for me since I have read that author's personal DG rifle is a left handed Model 700 rebarreled to .458 lott. Let's make that a double red flag.

Heym.

More expensive than the Searcy by a good margin and much more lightly built. Heym is my second choice to Searcy, but for durability and classic design, I will take Searcy.

Vintage English Doubles.

Some can be found for $10K to $20K. A lot of them are either weird calibers, light calibers or ratty old specimens that need a $5K rebuild. Overall it's a pig in a poke unless you buy a vintage double that has been competently reworked. Then remember that those old steels are soft and the rifle may rattle apart after a couple of hundred rounds anyway. If you are a traditionalist and insist on a vintage rifle, then save up for one in top condition by a top maker. Otherwise you are buying into lots of potential problems and could lose a lot of money. I did not buy a vintage British rifle for the same reason that I do not drive a vintage Triumph Spitfire.

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#11355 - 11/03/04 02:06 AM

Is there any actual documentation to this claim of 6,000 rounds? I don't mean the guy says so and I believe him but something a little more substantial?

I have a friend who has a Biesen built 458 that only got about 4500 rounds through it before it needed to be replaced. That took about 15 years. 300 rounds a year is a lot. How long to shoot a 470 6000 times?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#11378 - 11/03/04 09:11 AM

I talked to the 6000 round guy. He gave me his load data and told me about his cast bullet work. He used to buy beeswax by the 5 gallon bucket for making his own lube.

I believe what he says because he had all the details worked out.

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wombat
.300 member

Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Australia

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#11437 - 12/03/04 06:41 PM

Any chance you could send me that load data?

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: wombat]
#11488 - 14/03/04 06:05 AM

Only if you have an email address.

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grizzaffi
.224 member

Reged: 13/03/04
Posts: 3

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#11752 - 18/03/04 04:02 AM

Noticed the reference to someone shooting over 6000 rounds in a Searcy 470 Double. I believe that there reference was to me.

The particular gun was a early Searcy double before he started makeing his own receivers. I started a project of working on lead loads for double rifles. I did an article for African Hunter magazine on lead loads in the 470.

My best bullet was a 525 grain .477 with large meplat. No one had a really good bullet of that combination so I had Walt at NEI make a cherry. NEI still has this bullet in thier listing. I cast with wheel weights plus 2% to 4% added tin and water quench from the mold. I make up the metal in 600 pound lots in order to control consistancy of product.

I use two four cavity NEI molds alternating molds in order to control the heat build up in the mold. The only problems is that I only have a 20 pound RCBS furnace. I hope to go to a 90 pounder some day soon.

I logged in all my loads and range results for the first 6000 rounds. Velocity ranged from 1250fps to 2250 depending on how much recoil I wanted to suffer through.

I shot about 300 jacketed bullets, but the lead loads worked so well on game that I put jacketed bullets into a secondary position.

On one shooting session, I put 20 bullets from each barrel into a 3" group at fifty yards. This was from a setting position.

When Searcy came out with his new model, I had a President grade made up. My original gun is now somewhere in Africa with a professional hunter. When I last same this gun the barrels were in prestine condition from using lead bullets. A trip down the barrel with a bore scope showed no signs of wear on the leads and a consensus of high power rifle shooters regarded the barrel as brand new. The action was still crisp and tight.

I still have all the loading data on this gun.

I have been a little lax on using my new gun. It is the same story, that you get a pretty gun and then don't work it as much as you earlier piece.

I have had this gun about three years now and have put about 150 rounds a month through it with a load lever of approximately 1350FPS. Most of the shooting is done at steel plates at 50 yards. It is amazing how much damage that load will do on 1 inch steel plate.

If any one wants load date on the 470 or some sample bullets, drop me a line.

leadload
leo

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: grizzaffi]
#11805 - 18/03/04 04:00 PM

Leo,

Would it be convenient for you to post a picture of your steel plate holder assembly so that I could try to build one similar? I have a gong assembly but I am not really satisfied with it.

Thanks!

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grizzaffi
.224 member

Reged: 13/03/04
Posts: 3

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#12096 - 21/03/04 01:20 PM

Hello,500 grains

I am still have not moved into the 21 century and lack the equipment to post a photo on the net. but maybe I can do this the old way.

List of Material

2 ea 1" round bar stock 28" length
1 ea 1" round bar stock 18" length
1 ea 3/4" round bar stock 20" length
2 ea 1/2" flat bar stock 2'x12"
2 ea 3/4" washers
1 ea 1" flat plate cut in the shape of a pig[or something like a pig, make the legs short or they get shot off] height 9" length 16"

Weld the 1"x18" bar joining the two 1"x28" about 10" from one end. This now forms a letter "H" shape.

Drill a 3/4" hole through the 1/2"x2"x12" bar stock approximately 1 1/2" from the end and on center line. Slide the 3/4"x20" bar through the holes spreading the bars approximately 6" apart. Lay the pig plate on a flat surface and center the pig in the upper large section of the "H" frame. Make sure there is a about four inches clearance above the 1"x18 cross bar. I find that most people tend to shoot low and this bar can take a real beating if put in harms way. Place the 1/2"x2"x12" bars edgewise on the pig while the 3/4" round stock is still in place. Place the 3/4" washers on the 3/4" round bar outside of the 1/2"x2"/12" bars. Slide this loose assemlbly down the body of the pig until the 3/4"x20" round bar stock contacts the top of the "H" frame. Weld the two pieces of bar stock to the body of the pig with a deep weld. Make sure the 3/4"x20" found stock still rotates freely after this weld. Weld the 3/4"x20" bar stock to the top of the "H" frame. tack weld the washers to the 3/4"x20 round bar stock on the far sides to keep the pig from traveling from on side of the frame to the other.

This assemply weights about 40 pounds and will take quite a beating, but nothing last forever when hit with 525 grain lead bullets month after month.

This assembly is designed to fit into the target support at our local range. These target stations are a 36" long by 12 inch square piece of concret with two bolt coming out of the back spaced 12" apart. these is a 2" spacer and then a 1/4"x2"x24" steel bar bolted to the block. The stand must weigh about 80 pounds or more and are designed to not move when layed out on the firing line. I have bounced them over two feet out of alinement after one hundred round of hot 470 lead loads. the range master has a hard time believing that they will move, so I have been getting away with this little problem.

There is the story. I have gone through three of these targets in 5 years. But they give you a great sight picture and a active target so just shoot for minuite of pig at 50 yards and you will be ready to hunt with any double.

Leo

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: grizzaffi]
#12138 - 22/03/04 06:21 AM

Thank you Leo, that is very helpful.

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atkinson6
.375 member

Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#12221 - 23/03/04 08:37 AM

I would love to have some of that cast load data, as it should give me a good killer and perhaps eas my bursitas, as that 470 really works me over and I have been shooting the big ones for years...

I am going to have Butch re-regualate my gun for 2000 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet., thats still better than a 450-400 and I never had any complaints with it...

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4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
#12232 - 23/03/04 09:43 AM

Ray,
Yeah, my 470 is just over NINE pounds and you sure know you've touched one off.
I'm after a reduced load for it so some of my clients can take some pigs with it without copping full recoil.
This rifle is way too much gun for the inexperienced with full power loads.

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
#12246 - 23/03/04 12:51 PM

Ray, I thought you were against reduced loads in prior posts??

hee hee hee!

Get yourself some 500 grain lead bullets and put them ahead of 35.0 grains XMP5744. Increase by 5 grain increments until your rifle regulates. Should regulate before you hit 50 grains. Same formula works for the 500 NE. Mine regulated at 45 grains. I got another fellow's 470 NE to regulate at 50 grains with 350 grain bullets. And it hit dead on at 100 yards to boot!

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mstarling
.224 member

Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 37
Loc: West Virginia, USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#12296 - 24/03/04 01:32 AM

Ray,

I picked up a mould made by Ballisticast. It is a longer version of their 420 grain .475 diameter bullet for pistols. The little fella is a GCFP design with a very large meplat. The projectile cases very close to 0.476" with wheel weights. I've been filling the first 3 grooves with NRA formula Alox/Beeswax lube. These hide in the neck of the case. One of the fellas on the cast bullet forum made me some projectiles to try before I ordered a mould. Was VERY kind of him.

Ballisticast is the successor to H&G moulds (I have original H&G 4 and 6 gang molds in 41 and 44.) Their quality has not deteriorated at all! Still the very best I've ever used.

Butch's recommendation for a 500 grain cast bullet was 42.0 gr or XMR-5744. My rifle actually generates more velocity that he measured and groups slightly better at 40.0 grains. My measured velocity average for 40.0 gr is 1495 fps (2486 FPE) and for 42.0 is 1501 fps. My best groups have been a single hole with 4 shots (R-L-R-L) at 100 yards. It is 1.5" left of the bull center at 0 elevation. (Seriously, I think the windage is a function of my not being able to see the target well ... consistently, but not well!) The load kills deer rather effectively while having no recoil at all. Just a little muzzle flash ;>)

XMR-5744 seems to work up to 55 or so grains of charge weight. The velocity there is 1800 fps. The groups have become distorted by then.

I have not seen any evidence of alloy fouling with these loads.

I did try Wayne Douda's 540 grain projectile, but was not very successful with it.

If you want some test projectiles let me know.

Best,

mike

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mstarling]
#12431 - 25/03/04 04:27 PM

In reply to:

I am going to have Butch re-regualate my gun for 2000 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet., thats still better than a 450-400 and I never had any complaints with it...

That's not a real bright idea. Better to leave it regulated for the standard load and shoot reduced loads with lead bullets for practice and for plains game. For the handful of buffalo you will shoot during the remainder of your hunting career, I am sure you can handle the full recoil of a .470. I recently watched "Deadly Intent" in which a 110 pound lady brain shot a bull elephant with a .470 that had a scope. She had no problem at all with the recoil.

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4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#12561 - 27/03/04 08:15 AM

In reply to:

I recently watched "Deadly Intent" in which a 110 pound lady brain shot a bull elephant with a .470 that had a scope. She had no problem at all with the recoil.

The lady indeed did very well but I wouldn't say that she had no problem at all regarding recoil.
She was actually hit in the forehead by the scope on that 470 at one stage and ended up with a huge lump on her brow.
It was not her fault though. The people with her should have been well aware of the risks involved in allowing her to shoot a scoped 470.

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
#12565 - 27/03/04 08:32 AM

470, I did not recall that detail. In any event, even with a lump on her forehead she did not whine about the recoil. And she hit what she aimed at.

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
#12566 - 27/03/04 08:32 AM

where might one find this "Deadly Intent"

it sounds interesting!!! what's the plot?

and what exactly have you guys paid Butch for your guns... I'd be very interested to know.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

Edited by dasMafia (27/03/04 08:56 AM)

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Dark_Helmet]
#12582 - 27/03/04 11:33 AM

One of the rumours going around the Dealer network is that Searcy offers substantial discounts to people who promote his guns in various places. Up to 75%. If it is true it is a good marketing tool and probably cheaper and more productive than adds in expensive magazines.

Mark Sullivan approached Marcel Thys about them making him a 700NE for free. He tried to sell the exposure it would bring on one of his videos to whack an animal or two and continually brag up the Thys Rifle. On my recomendation Marcel and Eric refused the deal and instead offered 15% off which Sullivan accepted. It was still the best deal at the time for a 700NE. This is not unusual but I think it is unethical to not mention this when bragging about a particular make.

JMHO

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#12590 - 27/03/04 02:23 PM

Do you have anything to substantiate the claim on Searcy's, and if so, would it matter?

With regard to Sullivan, I believe he purchased a Watson Bros. 700 NE instead.

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475Guy
.400 member

Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#12592 - 27/03/04 02:56 PM

Why, are you going to give Butch an offer he can't refuse? Shoot a couple of ele's and buff's and sing his praises and maybe get a new one? Heh, Heh.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

Post Extras:

mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#12593 - 27/03/04 03:08 PM

Do you mean has he offered me a deal? No of course not. No, I don't see anything wrong with it, I thought I said that. I do think that if someone is promoting any product for a fee though that it should be clear and upfront.

We know that Tiger Woods recommends and is the spokesman for some brand of Golf clubs. If he did it because he loved this brand and recieved no renumertion it would make his endorsement more valid. But since he gets paid a lot of money for it his recommendation is judged accordingly. Don't you think?

Sullivan may have ended up with a Watson Bros. I don't know as I don't follow his stuff but he also had a Thys that is on one of his videos. Perhaps someone that has it will bring it up.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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ThomasEdwards
.300 member

Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#12599 - 27/03/04 05:26 PM

...mark has a marcel thys & son best grade .600ne...

...he also has a watson bros.royal grade .700ne...

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39261
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: ThomasEdwards]
#12609 - 27/03/04 10:40 PM

There is also a big difference between positive promotions and negative promoting ie blagging the competition for a fee.

The industry I work in has always had an industry co-operative approach (within reason). In the end unfair criticism is returned in kind and end up costing every participant sales. Remember what one player can do the competitors can do back. And around and around it goes down the toiilet hole.

Imagine the situation where product A promoters blagg product B amd C, B blaggs A and C, C blaggs all the rest too. What does the consumer do? He buys a bolt action.

If a product is good, it will sell on its merits and with no need to criticise the competition.

Of course fair criticism and true personal experiences are a different matter. I personally do not have the direct experience with most of these brands but I fail to see how 90% of double rifle manufacturers can sell their rifles year after year and often to the same customer buying more than one if they are as bad as some say.

Now Mickey and I had an off-forum discussion. I am perfectly willing to be a unbiased blank page for all the manufacturers to send me to try out free of charge, of course!

PS I would believe it when I see it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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atkinson6
.375 member

Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: NitroX]
#12646 - 28/03/04 04:48 AM

Mickey,
I have known Butch since he only made bolt guns in New Mexico and was near starvation, and let me relate to you a story...

Johan Calitz whom I book for and who is one of Butchs best friends whom Butch hunts and books for also, was in Butches shop one day and was haggling on a price for his first double, Butch told him to F... off, pay the price or keep shooting a bolt gun...Johan now has 5 of his guns and paid top dollar for all of them....I have heard Johan tell this story a dozen times to folks, its his best story...

I got a small discount on my double and thats the first one I have ever gotten from Butch, but I did Butch a big one time favor one time and I have found him some nice wood fron time to time without commission, and he wanted to pay me back for that, I had even forgotten it, but their never was a word said to me about promoting his guns and I have bought used Searcy bolt guns (trade ins) from Butch over the years, in fact my 416 is one of those I bought at SCI, and nothing has been mentioned about promoting for him...some other companies have made such an offer and I have turned them down because I frankly didn't like their products...

I doubt that Butches nature would allow him to make such deals, he is a stright shooter and says whats on his mind and you will always know where you stand with him, and I doubt if he really cares who shoots his rifles..He has a good product and knows it and really does not need any good words, as anyone who has one promotes them for the most part, I do , 500 does, Judge G, Johann Calitz and many others, But if he did make such a deal it would be perfectly legitamate as you stated...

I have made a few deals on hunts in the past to get them filmed and promoted on TV or in magazine articles, but I volenteered it and was not approached on it...It's called free interprise..

Just wanted to clear the air because such statements tend to be negative or rather create a negative atmosphere, and in this case perhaps not, but it comes across that way in most cases like these...I realise that you claified that, so my post is not aimed directly at you, but to all who post here and make such comments from time to time, self included, We should think about how our posts come across IMO....We are probably all guilty of this from time to time, I know I am...

500,
I never said that in a past post that I know off..I said I could make myself shoot the big kickers, but never liked it, and had to concentrate on not flinching, something I don't have to do with the 40 calibers...

You are right, I am not going to re-regulate the rifle and I am working on trying to find a 2000 FPS load with Woodleigh or Rhino bullets, perhaps GS since Bridger got out of the bullet business...then like you say, I will have the option....

I got to thinking about this Searcy guns accuracy in as much as it touches both bullets at 50 yards and boy, if it ain't broke, don't fix it came to mind, and what if I ruined that kind of accuracy, so I went the route you suggested with a slight modification of using regular bullets....But I do have some cast bullets coming from a friend who posts here for me to try out, I may get into the casting business yet....

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470Rigby
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: grizzaffi]
#12663 - 28/03/04 07:11 AM

Griffazi - I messed around with paper-patched cast .458 lead bullets in my 470 some years back - worked OK, but very fiddly! Had thought of getting a custom mould made up - but sloth won the day. I will see if I can get one of the NEI moulds. I would be interested to know what powder(s) you worked with?

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
#12670 - 28/03/04 08:11 AM

Ray

I think by your reply that you have heard this or similar before. I was passing on some comments that some dealers have mentioned. I really don't care one way or the other as I know this goes on in all business's in all walks of life. In my previous employment I was offered a number of 'perks of position' in exchange for my endorsement or recomendations. It is amazing how they all dry up when your not in a position help anymore and in a position to actually take advantage.

As a minor partner in a couple of Outfitting business we are constantly being bombarded by would be writers and agents offering their recommendation and/or articles about us in exchange for free hunts. I have never seen one that was worth it's salt and if guys like Craig Boddington can pay for there hunts so can everyone else.

Agents can get a free hunts in exchange for commissions not taken but that is the same as paying, except we are the bank.

--------------------
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Mick

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
#12679 - 28/03/04 01:53 PM

Ray,

I recall over on AR some time ago that a posting that you did not see value in reduced loads for practice. Personally I like shooting some 45-70 power loads for practice.

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atkinson6
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#12737 - 29/03/04 07:06 AM

500,
Yes, that is correct, but I do not consider a 500 gr. bullet at 2100 a reduced load, rather I see it as a more practical load....I still have the option of both and if I practice with the 2245 FPS load, then when I shoot the 2100 FPS load, I will think I have died and gone to heaven...Thats the way I handle recoil, and it maintains my controled flinch...

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NE450No2
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
#12787 - 30/03/04 07:03 AM

Ray
I highly recommend you give some Hawk 350gr bullets a try. Load them with the same powder charge as the 500grains and see how they shoot. Adjust the powder charge if necessary. I do this in my 450 No2 for use at the deer lease and for practice. They hit EXACTLY the same place as the full power 480/500gr bullets. They are easier on the rifle and on my shoulder. Work better on Texas game too.

You probably never should have sold your Army&Navy 450/400 3 1/4", but Aggie is glad you did.

Other posters take note... There is a BIG jump in recoil from a 450/400 to a 470.

Not so apparent in firing at game but noticable in practice for sure.

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chrispie
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: NE450No2]
#12793 - 30/03/04 11:01 AM

just recently purchased a searcy 470, i was told that butch regulates his guns with federal ammo, so i'v been on line trying to look up any and all different types of loads, and i came across this one that dupicates the federal load.
Has anyone tryied this load ?

So, I reckoned that, if the Federal shoots so well in my gun and if my gun is regulated for that load, then I need only to duplicate the Federal load. My next move was to pull apart a Federal cartridge for a look see. In a Cordite for 4831 exchange it takes 107 grains of IMR 4831 and a little more of the Hogdon, say 109 gr. That pretty much fills up the case. However, low and behold the Federal case was about half full (you can shake it and tell that) and weighed at 87 gr of something. Back at the SCI convention my buddy and I asault the Federal booth and demand that they tell us what powder they are using. No way Jose say they, private and double secret information distributed on a strictly need to know basis. The powder is, they finally said, a proprietary canister powder and a non-available to the public Federal 216 primer.

Only slightly daunted we sought out Craig Boddington, noted gun writer and the guy who must hold the record for trips to Africa, for his opinion knowing that he is an imense fan of the 470NE. We tell him the Federal story and he replies, dead pan, B*** S***! "It's 87 grains of Reloader 15."

The problem is, he further elucidates, that that 216 primer is MUCH hotter than the 215 made available and Federal cannot be cajoled into releasing it for the public. That primer (greater brisance I think the word is) allows them to function with a lot of airspace in the case, even with the powder not covering the primer!

So next it's off to the Kynoch booth where my buddy had bought some nifty foam wads for just this problem. They are simply 1/2" wads cut from black insulation foam, the squishy, spongy stuff, about an inch long. This material expands on insertion to fill the diameter of the case below the neck and totally disintegrates on firing, leaving no residue. I buy a couple of hundred (quite cheap they were) and return home to load and test. In goes 87 gr of RL15 topped by the foam wad which is ever so slightly compressed by the bullet. Take ten of these and out to the range we go. Glory Halleluiah and the Jubilee Come, they print within a two inch circle at 50 hards and the felt recoil is considerably less than a 4831 load of equal velocity. I am not engineer enough to understand why but it deffinitely kicks less with the faster powder.

So, we are pretty certain that, if you have a modern double in 470NE regulated for the Federal Premium Safari ammo, you can duplicate the performance with a Norma case (or recycled Federal nickle plated), 87gr of Reloader 15 topped by a 1" x 1/2" soft foam wad (buy 'em or make 'em), a Federal 215 primer and either a Woodleigh 500gr bullet or the Trophy Bonded 500gr. Pressures appear to be the same as the Federal, they feel the same to shoot and accuracy is like what you paid for! The velocity? Don't know, don't care. Get a double to shoot to the same place as the regulation load and it's so close as to not be of issue.

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atkinson6
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: chrispie]
#12795 - 30/03/04 11:47 AM

The Federal load is 87 grs of RL-15 with a filler, they used to use ear plugs...2000 FPS on my chronograph.....

Butches 108 grs of 4831 is 2245 FPS..tight barrels and chambers and real accurate in my gun, kicks like a damn mule...Factory ammo is a pussycat by comparison...4350 will also recoil a lot less than 4831..

I will be wringing out my super accurate Searcy this summer before Africa and will report the results..I want a GS customs FN or Bridger FN at 2100 dead on at 50 yards..One thing about the Searcy that has become apparant is that it is not as tricky to bring different loads together as all the English guns I have had..Lots of stuff shoots to the same POI with this gun.

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
#12816 - 31/03/04 12:53 AM

Here is what regulates in my searcy .500:

570 Woodleigh solids
570 Woodleigh softs
570 Bridger solid
570 GS custom solid
570 TCCI solid
500 cast lead

I haven't played with the Hawk bullets enough to comment as I though I had enough to work with in the above list. So far I have only shot a bison with the rifle, but it worked great. The bison flopped over, kicked, and died before I could get the bead on him again.

Here is what did not regulate:

570 grain or lead so bullet by Custom Cast
650 grain lead bullet from Saeco mould

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Dark_Helmet
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#12827 - 31/03/04 05:59 AM

Ray, very interested in the FN bullets you rave about... I get the physics, but was just curious as to:

a) how you came accross this "fetish"

and

b) what additional costs are there and what are the good & bad of the available pieces...

the Searcy is looking like an interesting investment as well... we're a ways off from a decision though... but intriquing nonetheless.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Dark_Helmet]
#12830 - 31/03/04 07:33 AM

Mafia,

The best explanation of the physics of penetration of solids in aqueous media (flesh) is provided by Norbert Hansen. A google search for Norbert Hansen and Superpenetrator will find the article for you in both English and German.

A solid penetrates by creating a gaseous vapor bubble ahead of it in flesh. The bigger the vapor bubble, the less resistance on the bullet from the flesh and the greater the penetration.

A flat nose creates a larger vapor bubble than a round nose and hence penetrates deeper.

A flat nose also cuts a cleaner hole on the entrance and exit, giving a better blood trail.

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475Guy
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Dark_Helmet]
#12833 - 31/03/04 08:29 AM

dM, the flatnose solids that Ray is talking about is basically like shooting the semi-cutters in handguns started by Elmer Keith an age ago. It cuts a perfectly round hole through skin and flesh just like a hole-puncher when doing holes for typingpaper. You could probably broaden your ballistics knowledge by getting some of Elmer Keith's books and read up on how he came to the conclusion that a flatnosed bullet is a good killer in game. It just works without too much drama.

--------------------
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Dark_Helmet
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 475Guy]
#12835 - 31/03/04 08:55 AM

thanks guys... I've got enough reading to do as it is... will add them to the list!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Dark_Helmet]
#12851 - 01/04/04 01:12 AM

Ray, if you load some lead bullets down in the 1200 to 1500 fps range for that .470, you will really enjoy it. Then go rabbit hunting. Or buy some goats from the livestock auction and get in some low-recoil practice. Of course heavy load practice is necessary too, but you can have lots of fun with the light loads, and even shoot deer and elk with them if you are of a mind to.

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atkinson6
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#13374 - 12/04/04 01:12 PM

500,
I am working on that, and I have found the Searcy is quit different from the English rifles, it will shoot a lot of different loads to the same POI....Now, thats a second coming type miracle to any double rifle fan, that has playing with English guns for years, wow!. My gun will come to POI with a 500 gr. Woodleigh at 2050 FPS and at 2254 FPS, now I will work on the cast loads you and some others have recommended. This gun is a kick to work with, it makes life simple.

BTW, Butch borrowed my gun and just won the double rifle nationals somewhere in california, reckon I will ever get it back?????..He did it with the 500 gr. Woodliegh at 2245 FPS, I expect Butch to be in about the same condition as Cassias Clay pretty quick....

DasMafia,
for years going back to about 1960 I guess, I cut the noses flat on BarnesX and ITTc bullets, but they didn't feed so I only had one on top..I begged all the makers to make a bullet shaped like the Keith Simi wadcutter and they looked at my like I had lost it....then after many years of struggle I got a few folks attention and got some experimental bullets but not a lot of interrest...Yep, it had become a fettish because I knew it would work, why not? it had already proved itself in the 44 special and 44 magnum pistols... Then I read an article in Man Magnum on GS Customs and bought a bunch of them, and did they ever work, man did they work, I was sold and have been using them ever since even on plainsgame with great results and these babies feed like poop thru a goose..Then Bridger made some and they were great, but he gave up on it, but I got quit a few before John quit making them..

I have been talking to Geoff McDonald of Woodleigh fame and he has a flat nose solid on the burner somewhere down the line it appears...so all should email him and push for such a bullet and it will be of conventional design..Anyway thats how it all came about to answer your question...

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500grains
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double rifle nationals [Re: atkinson6]
#13449 - 13/04/04 11:26 PM

In reply to:

BTW, Butch borrowed my gun and just won the double rifle nationals somewhere in california, reckon I will ever get it back?????..He did it with the 500 gr. Woodliegh at 2245 FPS, I expect Butch to be in about the same condition as Cassias Clay pretty quick....

Do you know if there is any news blurb about the double rifle nationals on the web?

Also, what is your .470 load that gives 2245 fps? Thanks.

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atkinson6
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Re: double rifle nationals [Re: 500grains]
#13608 - 17/04/04 04:13 AM

500,
It is the regulation load that Butch uses, 108 grs. of IMR-4831, Butch told me it clocked that on his chronograpeh while regulating, and it clocked right at that for me also..But my new load is 85 grs. of RL-15, topped with 5 grs. of Dacron, for 2020 FPS and it sure feels better and prints dead center at 50 yards also...I finally settled on a 500 gr. cast lead bullet with 45 grs. of XMP-5744 and its dead center at 50...All 3 loads are super accurate and normally touch both bullets at 50...

The RL-15 load with GS FN solids will be my Africa load..I had a few Bridgers and they shot good, but thats a done deal I guess...

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atkinson6
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Re: double rifle nationals [Re: atkinson6]
#13770 - 21/04/04 01:04 PM

Butch called me and told me he did not re-regulate my rifle he just loaded it down...Those Searcy rifles don't seem to need re-regulating, they shoot most loads to the same POI just like a good bolt gun, amazing...

Butch also won that double rifle National shoot with my gun...BTW..

This is great as I now have a number of loads that shoot to the same POI, and the gang here has snatched me into the world of reduced loads, lead bullet and Lord knows what next and I'm bloody loving it...

I can just about shoot anything I load up to center at 50 yards, and I'm having a lot more fun as I learn more about these good guns...and that lead load is just plumb cute!!

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holland465
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 700nitro]
#13968 - 26/04/04 05:44 AM

The English guns may be expensive but you will always get you money out of them if and when one decides to sell. The guns manufactured outside of England do not have that luxury.

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: holland465]
#13975 - 26/04/04 10:06 AM

In reply to:

The English guns may be expensive but you will always get you money out of them if and when one decides to sell. The guns manufactured outside of England do not have that luxury.

This is a popular but untrue myth. Some data points:

1. I paid $7K for a Searcy double, and the same rifle today goes for $8500 used.

2. Lots of people who by used English guns have to get them re-worked at a cost of several thousand dollars and do not recoup that cost again.

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#13978 - 26/04/04 10:55 AM

Where has a used, Field Grade Searcy been sold for US$8500? The new PH Model is a lot better handling rifle than the old clubby ones and they are only $9500.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#14020 - 27/04/04 06:10 AM

In reply to:

Where has a used, Field Grade Searcy been sold for US$8500?

Lewis Drake sold one for $8500 recently.

In reply to:

The new PH Model is a lot better handling rifle than the old clubby ones and they are only $9500.

Where did you have a chance to compare the PH and field grade models?

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#14024 - 27/04/04 07:09 AM

Lewis Drake has one for sale. Asking $8500. Who know what it will sell for but not the asking price.

I have not seen the PH model but am going by reports of Ray and others who have them and state that they are much slimmer and better handling than the Field Grade. I have handled a few of those and IMO they are very clumsy and poor handling. Much too wide and bulky, poorly balanced and awkward.

I am happy he is going for handling now that he has the mechanics down.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#14025 - 27/04/04 07:47 AM

Maybe the LD website is not up to date, because I heard that they actually sold the rifle for the asking price of $8500.

As for the PH and field grade models, I personally find them both to be fine handling and well made rifles. I wonder if your extreme negative opinion of Mr. Searcy's work could arise from some personal considerations not related to the rifles themselves? Some day Ray and I will have to get together and shoot a PH model and a field grade model side by side to see if we can tell any difference between them in fit, handling or performance. When I close my eyes and bring a field grade or PH model to my shoulder, I really cannot tell the difference, but perhaps there is a difference when the round goes off. If you know of someone who has shot the two side by side, I would like to hear his comments.

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#14032 - 27/04/04 10:53 AM

I have sold two rifles and bought one through Drake and none of them went for the asking price. As you know he asks quite a bit more than most others for similar value. I don't mind when selling and when buying reasonable offers always prevail. I have bought and sold a couple of 'High Grade' Rifles and the asking price is rarely paid.

I have no personnel issues or considerations of Searcys rifles. I have been looking at them since the first one appeared at SCI, the old ones built on the Browning Shotgun. Those were some of the most Butt ugly rifles I have ever seen, rivalling the bottom end of the Cogswell and Harrison line.

I think that they are a good value in the new rifle market. I agree with Butch when he says he is not competing with High Grade Guns but with the other rifles in his price range, $8-12,000.

I don't think that they are the Best in the World and I feel that a lot of people on these forums that don't know much about Doubles are being steered down a flower strewn path by some of the comments of posters. When I read posters who say that they have never handled a Double but want a Searcy I cringe at their lack of overall knowledge. But that's just me.

New cars, new TV's, new watches and new guns don't resell for more than their original prices. That's a fact of life. Not Kreighoffs, not Merkels and not Searcys. I won't spend $5,000 plus on any rifle I can't sell for a profit. As I don't hunt professionally I will never get my money back in work or pleasure so I prefer to get it back in cash.

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#14038 - 27/04/04 02:08 PM

In reply to:

New cars, new TV's, new watches and new guns don't resell for more than their original prices. That's a fact of life.

If you are so sure of that, then call Lewis Drake and see what they sold that field grade for.

In reply to:

I feel that a lot of people on these forums that don't know much about Doubles are being steered down a flower strewn path by some of the comments of posters. When I read posters who say that they have never handled a Double but want a Searcy I cringe at their lack of overall knowledge.

It is doing a person a terrible disservice to suggest purchasing a vintage rifle when he will probably end up with a ratty old junker that doesn't regulate and has a host of other problems. The quality of English guns is just not that great. I know of 2 instances where Holland & Holland rifles of recent production doubled in the field. And it is quite common for them to shoot off face after a couple hundred rounds. Overally their quality is probably on par with Triumph sports cars, but I prefer something better. No matter how nice the paint is on a triumph, we all know that it will spend an hour on the hoist for each hour on the road.

In reply to:

I won't spend $5,000 plus on any rifle I can't sell for a profit. As I don't hunt professionally I will never get my money back in work or pleasure so I prefer to get it back in cash.

The rest of us are here because we enjoy hunting and shooting. If you are in this for the money, then you should have been a plumber because you would get rich much faster fixing pipes.

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#14039 - 27/04/04 03:02 PM

In reply to:

If you are so sure of that, then call Lewis Drake and see what they sold that field grade for.

You are the one who made the statement it sold for $8500. I see it still for sale. Why don't you call them?

In reply to:

It is doing a person a terrible disservice to suggest purchasing a vintage rifle when he will probably end up with a ratty old junker that doesn't regulate and has a host of other problems. The quality of English guns is just not that great. I know of 2 instances where Holland & Holland rifles of recent production doubled in the field. And it is quite common for them to shoot off face after a couple hundred rounds. Overally their quality is probably on par with Triumph sports cars, but I prefer something better. No matter how nice the paint is on a triumph, we all know that it will spend an hour on the hoist for each hour on the road.

It sounds like you got taken on at least one Brit or Euro Rifle. If one knows what to look for and understands Doubles those things don't happen. If you would have gone through a reputable Dealer or had it inspected by a knowledable smith that would not have happened.

Where did you hear it is quite common for a 'Best Rifle' to shoot off the face after 200 rounds? Sounds like one of those internet rumours to me.

In reply to:

The rest of us are here because we enjoy hunting and shooting. If you are in this for the money, then you should have been a plumber because you would get rich much faster fixing pipes.

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say hunting and shooting? I daresay I have shot more animals with a Double Rifle than you have. Probably by many times.

I'm glad you can afford to lose money on your purchases. I would rather not, in fact, I would prefer too make a couple of bucks.

All this aside, the people purporting the demise in value of 'High Grade' Rifles are quite mistaken. Perhaps it is just a lack of knowledge on where to look and what to look for?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#14062 - 28/04/04 01:31 AM

Well, it looks like this has turned into a genuine pissing match. Congratulations Mickey. I guess that owning a classy rifle might not equate with having class.

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Gibbs505
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#14074 - 28/04/04 12:46 PM

I am not getting into the middle of this one!!!

--------------------
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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#14077 - 28/04/04 03:08 PM

In reply to:

Poster: 500grains
Subject: Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles

Well, it looks like this has turned into a genuine pissing match. Congratulations Mickey. I guess that owning a classy rifle might not equate with having class.

Interesting post. You post as an expert with knowledge about Double Rifles. You make statements whose legitimacy is questioned and then, instead of discussing what you have posted you resort to attacking me for daring to question your statements. Does this fall under the catagory of 'if you can't answer the question change the subject'?

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475Guy
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#14080 - 28/04/04 03:59 PM

Mick, I see you're taking the "high road" on this. Not every one can come with the bucks for true English collectibles and plus refurbish them after the purchase. In fact, the Merkels and Searcy's offer a good value for the shooter who doesn't care about "collector's" value in a firearm. There are quite a few who just glow just at the mention of their double of choice. It's just pride of ownership and nothing else. The guy who bought my Merkel out from under me just loves the thing and he hasn't fired it since the day he talked me out it. The only times that he's shot it was when I was tweaking it with new sights, new recoil pad and trigger job at the range.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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500grains
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Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 475Guy]
#14097 - 29/04/04 04:14 AM

Mickey, I terminated discussion because I am not interested in a pissing contest with a person who has an elemantary school mentality. I told you of a Searcy that sold for $8500. You said it was impossible. OK, so call Drake. But you want me to call Drake for unfathomable reasons. If you did not believe me before, I am sure you will not believe me later, so why waste the effort.

If you want a wallhanger, an English gun may be the way to go. If you want reliability in the field, better think twice.

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chrispie
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Reged: 30/01/04
Posts: 67
Loc: New England, USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#14112 - 29/04/04 12:01 PM

Wooooooooooooooooow, I thought this was a form that individuals with a love of doubles and big bores come to share information and just maybe help some poor fellow out with some info, well let me put and end to this pissing contest, I am the individual who purchased that 470 searcy from drake and I absolutely love it, I finally have a double that I’m not afraid to thrash through the woods, and bring to Africa. I must say that it does shot some very nice groups at 50, though they do not touch each other but are about a 1” to 1.5” apart, hopefully with some reloading I can close the gap a bit.
Now what did I pay for it? Well first off there was no way I was going to pay 8500 for I could order a new one for and extra grand, I offered him 7500 and he took it. And I saved 2k of play money. Would love to own a Holland or a westley Richards and I will one day, but for now I can’t see spending 60k or more, ( if she ever left me I’d be at westleys office that next week getting fitted for a 577)
I choose a searcy because it’s a working gun, and I feel butch builds a very nice rifle, also that he is local ( in the states) and he has already repaired my safety which did not work on the gun when I purchased it, and that only cost me shipping charges, he fixed it for free and checked the gun over. And in a weeks time. That’s what I call service.
So now that this is put to rest let move on.

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: chrispie]
#14136 - 30/04/04 03:54 AM

Well Mickey is very protective of his classic English guns and thats OK, he should be.. Some, self included, are convienced the Searcy is a better using rifle..

I can see a used Searcy bringing $8500 if a customer wants a double rifle..I have seen and/or sold Stickley and Chappius guns for that much, and I saw a used Merkel bring $8750, that was worth a chuckle on my part, its a market out there, they sell for whatever they bring.

I do not see a competition here, and Butch is not in competition with the lovely English guns..The English guns are a better investment in the medium grade rifles, no doubt about that..but for a using rifle and one I can haul all over Africa in a tuff case at the mercy of airline baggage handlers, the Searcy is hands down the best rifle and it can be replaced, repaired right here and probably at no cost to the customer...It will outshoot the English guns almost every time. Also I can shoot any monolithic bullet on the market and the Searcy is a much stronger action and barreled rifle..The English guns are trimmer and sleeker, even more so than the PH model, but the PH is heavier and recoils a good deal less in the bigger bores, that's important to me for sure...

The Searcys don't devalue much if at all these days but I am sure some are sold for a quick sale, and some of the early guns on shotgun actions will sell very cheap, and they still work and have obviously held up well, but by the same token I have purchased some nice doubles in the $5000-$6000 catagory and others for $10,000..I won't go above that as a rule on a double because I use them to hard...

I have never lost any money on a English double, you never will unless you get into the really high dollar guns and thats a gamble, you will make a killing on the high dollar guns or lose your a$$ IMO..The market is very limited in this catagory and any high dollar gun is very slow to move unless you get lucky.

I have loved all my English double rifles and I've owned some really nice ones that shot really well, but you guys bilked me out of most of them, but not my Searcy, not in a 100 years, it shoots to damn good!!

Another point of interrest is 90% of the English guns out there are junk, the bores are bad, they have been redone half a dozen times, they require a lot of maintenence, they shoot off the face and so fourth...If you do not know and understand double rifles and what makes them tick then again your better off with a Searcy..and that is not to say a good quality English double is not a joy to own and shoot, it certainly is and Mickeys guns I am sure are of that quality as he knows them very well...

500 grs is a hunter, a shooter and he is right on with his Searcy it fits him and his lifestyle, as it does mine...and I guarentee you he will not lose money on it, because I will buy it because it shoot ALMOST as well as mine!

That's the way I see it for what its worth and that's a cup of coffee, but only if you have a doller to pay for it...

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chrispie
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
#14156 - 30/04/04 01:03 PM

Ray, I agree with you on English doubles, they are very nice and I do love them all, but for now I just can’t spend the $$$ on one, I find that my 470 shoot really nice with factory ammo, but not as nice as yours. What’s your load, I want to try it and see if my searcy can close the gap a bit. I have never loaded for rifles before just my hand guns so I’m new to rifle reloading, I can see it being much different. I’m still waiting on my brass, should be in this week so any advice would be helpful

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chrispie
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: chrispie]
#14157 - 30/04/04 01:05 PM

forgot the ( t ) in can't, can't see it being much different.

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ALF
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: chrispie]
#14162 - 30/04/04 02:37 PM

I find the justifications for placing one gun ( modern) in the form of a Searcy against a rifle built in the very early 1900's ridiculous. Why not compare modern to modern.

Many here and on other boards have contended that a new H&H shoots off the face in just a few shots ( unproven and I suspect off the cuff gunshop talk) and modern metallurgy is offered as reason why a Searcy is then better than a H&H?

H&H uses not only the most modern CNC and CAD technology in the milling and making of all their barrels and actions they also use modern steel and metal technology so this arguement simply does not hold water. Add to this then the hands and fitting skills of some of the finest hands in the business and you have a continuation of a marque value that is renowned the world over.

I would rather say a Searcy is a Searcy and a H&H is exactly what it is supposed to be, you cannot compare the two as they serve a different purpose.

I also would not call old english guns junk, many may be shot out but they certainly hold their value refinished or not.

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470Rigby
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: ALF]
#14165 - 30/04/04 02:54 PM

ALF

In reply to:

I find the justifications for placing one gun ( modern) in the form of a Searcy against a rifle built in the very early 1900's ridiculous. Why not compare modern to modern.

HEAR! HEAR!

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 470Rigby]
#14439 - 07/05/04 06:36 AM

You are all correct in you opinions, and are all saying the same thing, only in different ways, and not reading what others are saying, but nit picking! There is no need for a pissing contest here, as all opinions I have read here, have value, if viewed from a little different perspective!

The fact is, most Britt double rifles sold today, are in the 80 to 100 year old class! This fact, alone, tells the inteligent buyer, that he needs to know his Ps&Qs or he will get a piece of junk, for an inflated price. The price will not be a good guide in this endever. The well made, and well MAINTANED Britt double will be worth ten times what it sold for 100 years ago. However, that same Britt double did not sell for more than it cost new, when it was 5 yrs old, it was simply a USED rifle and sold at used rifle prices. Only today, when Britt double rifles are collector items, are they sold for those premium prices we see today. It is true you will always get back the money you piad for a Britt today, that is, if you didn't pay more than it was worth in the first place!

It is my opinion, though, the market has peeked on the Britts, and large profits will not be realized on rifles bought today, as they did when bought 20 years ago!

Now lets look at the new double rifles, and their attendant pricing! The Britt will still cost you, at least, twice what a Europien, or American double will cost you, and you will not get back a premium on that investment, if you pay full retail. On the other hand the American, or Europien double will loose value as any used rifle will loose value, while new ones are still being made! Give the new rifle made today 75 or 100 years and it will sell for a premium as well, assuming it has been cared for properly. In other words,sombody owned the old ones for a long time before they became collector items that command collector prices, and all those owners did not make money on them when they sold!

Finally, if you are buying a rifle to use for hunting, and you are not in the collector's possition of haveing the knowledge necessary, to make the proper judgments on a collector rifle, then IMO, you are far better served by buying NEW. Buying NEW, is something that is not well accepted by the purest Britt collector/hunter, and draws some form of distaste,in most cases, when new doubles are discussed! That is natural for any purest, no matter his field, and is to be expected.

Think, for a moment, about the guy who wants a double rifle,wants to hunt with it, and will most likely keep it, what is wrong with his buying a NEW double that will sattisfy his itch, while not killing his hunting budget, and let him experience his dream? I fail to see why everyone wants to rain on this guy's parade!

I didn't see anything in the title of this forum that restricted posts to only Brittish double rifles, so I think it is for what ever double rifle one wants to discuss! To me it makes more sense to try to educate the beginer, rather than look down on him, simply because he has chosen a double you wouldn't have chosen! I have both old Britts, and new double rifles, and I find value in them all. Ray is right, I would far rather loose a $10K new double, that I can replace, with an exact copy, than to loose a $5K collector piece that can't be replaced at any price! With that in mind I hunt more with my NEW doubles that with my old ones!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
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Loc: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
#14444 - 07/05/04 09:33 AM

DUGABOY

In reply to:

the market has peeked on the Britts, and large profits will not be realized on rifles bought today, as they did when bought 20 years ago!

I think you are a bit too categoric in this statement. As with anything bought for investment potential, you've got to "buy right"!

Consider the guy who paid $1800 thirty years ago for a .375 NE 21/2" Cogwell and Harrison double? Probably could have picked up a Holland, Purdey, Rigby, etc. best Sidelock in a really usefull calibre for less!

Too often, I have seen uninformed people hang on to notions of inflated values of their guns just on the basis that it is "old", "rare", "English", or whatever, in the hope that it represents a "nest egg" for retirement, or for his widow, only to find they have been sitting on a pile of junk for half a lifetime.

While there are still people with a lazy 50,000 pounds sterling to plonk down on a new London "Best", the market for good used sidelocks will hold up.

Ratty old English boxlocks (excluding Westley's of course!) are starting to look a doubtfull proposition though!(IMHO)

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 470Rigby]
#14467 - 07/05/04 10:51 PM

All my comments were simply assumeing you buy "right", and compareing a "bought right" side lock, or box lock bought 20 yrs ago will show a lot more profit on today's market,percentage wise, than the same rifle bought RIGHT today. It goes without saying if you buy a piece of junk,and pay top dollar for it you will loose money, no matter when you buy it, generally speaking.

Your last post is only saying what I was trying to get across, in mine! If you don't know what you are doing you will not make good investments,and it is easy to get stung on old doubles, of any name, or configuration. If you are in the market for a double to use for hunting, and don't know the ins, and outs of buying collector rifles, then you are better off to buy new! Still today, the very large profits made a few years ago, will not show up on doubles bought today, that it did a few years ago, so the simple fact that it is British doesn't make it a sound investment
for a person new to doubles, so reccomending he buy Britt for the investment is not a sound idea. The "ANY BRITT" being a good buy days, are over compared to the sound investment that it once was, all things being equal!

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500grains
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
#14479 - 08/05/04 01:40 AM

In reply to:

Originally posted by Ray:

Another point of interrest is 90% of the English guns out there are junk, the bores are bad, they have been redone half a dozen times, they require a lot of maintenence, they shoot off the face and so fourth...

This is a point I tried to make in the past, although with less eloquence. A person has to look long and hard to find a good English rifle, and you don't know if you have a can of worms or not until after you have shot it awhile. There is a reason why JJ can make a living in the field of repairing English doubles...

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NitroX
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#14482 - 08/05/04 01:58 AM

In reply to:

Another point of interrest is 90% of the English guns out there are junk, the bores are bad, they have been redone half a dozen times, they require a lot of maintenence, they shoot off the face and so fourth...

So what's the evidence that 90% of English double rifles are "junk" ???

I started another thread on first hand experience because of statements like these. So far no first hand seriously negative posts have been made. Some guys on these forums have owned 20 or 30 such doubles over their careers. Undoubtably some have had issues but 18/20 or 27/30 !!!! That thread is a perfect place to record that sort of info for all readers benefit.

***

Those people that comment that about not being able to discuss modern doubles, I don't see where they are getting that from !? All modern brands of double rifles are welcome to be discussed on these forums. Modern German, Spanish, Italian, Czech, Finnish, US, whatever. (My next one is a modern Finnish BTW. (Temporary snipped dueto a competition) Probably the reason 'vintage' English doubles are discussed and not modern examples is because of the hefty price tags for a new H&H, Purdey, WR and lack of depth in the most people's wallets etc.

As also discussions on black powder, nitro for black are also welcome. These doubles are not junk if they can still be used with suitable loads.

But people making wild disparaging claims shouldn't hope that they not be challenged. A member or three is sure to ask where these sorts of numbers are coming from.

Personally I do not mind some robust discussions. None of this is life and death stuff you know. Its also better to keep discussions from getting personal and "above the belt".

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (02/06/04 03:52 PM)

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500grains
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: NitroX]
#14492 - 08/05/04 03:46 AM

Nitrox, I do not intend to speak for Ray, but "junk" is an opinion/observation, so Ray is probably trying to convey that about 90% of the vintage English doubles he has looked at over the years fit his classification of "junk" (bad bores, have been redone a lot, need a lot of maintenance, shoot off face, and I would add - cracked stock, loose solder and needs re-regulation). Another man might look at the same junk rifles and find a treasure in the nostalgia and romance of the firearm.

The point some of us are trying to make is that for usability, durability and practicality, a Searcy is as good as it gets, and the typical vintage English gun is trailing Searcy by a long distance in those departments.

Of course there are vintage English guns that are on face, regulate well, look nice, etc., but these seem to be more the exception than the rule, don't you agree? At least here in the U.S. that seems to be the case.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member

Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#14493 - 08/05/04 04:44 AM

I have to agree with NitroX on the inflation of that 90% number! Though you were quoting RAY, your reply was to me, and I want folks here to understand that quote does not belong to me, and I disagree with it, but in numbers only!

There are a lot of used up double rifles of all makes, and origins, but I don't think 90% is valid! Like any type of machanical thing that is 75 to 100 yrs old, many have been used up! There are many good ones as well. The point is, if one is not in the know, 75 to 100 yr old
rifles, and especially, double rifles, can be a mine field for those looking to buy a usable rifle.

I don't think Searcy takes a back seat to anyone, as far as reliability, or accuracy goes, but as he will tell you himself, he is not trying to compete with H&H, purdey, or Westley Richards, but is in business to provide a solid double rifle for those who want value for money, to hunt with!

For the guy who lives in Australia, his rifle is too expencive, because of shipping and emport taxes. For the Aussie, one of the emports from some other place, or if he knows how, a good used Britt, is probably the best idea. That, however, has nothing to do with quality of any of them, but does have to do with economics!

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
#14731 - 14/05/04 04:40 AM

Just for the record, since Butch won the big shoot with my gun, I could have sold it for more money than you can imagine and more than double what I paid for it, lots of offers and trades being offered..For now I intend to keep it...

I also had some offers to rent it for next years shoot at some high dollar rentals, but I will send it to Butch or go myself and share it with him...

Such offers are sorely tempting to this old gun whore!!

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atkinson6
.375 member

Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
#14908 - 18/05/04 04:06 AM

The 90% number was an off the wall comment, to make a point that I beleive to be true but to what % I have no clue..

The point is most of the doubles in my price range of $10 to $12,000 have bores that have shot too much cordite, surely no one is going to deny that and most have been reblacked ( a common practice back then ) and few have ever had the locks and inside checked IMO...Now that is what I have seen...

This does not effect those who have a knowledge of double rifles, they simply put them back on the table and look for something else...But the number of bad guns I see in proud owners possession is sometimes an amazment to me and you guys know thats a fact...

Now I have also owned some bad bored guns that shot like a house on fire, and they suited me fine because that is my primary concern, my number one criteria as it is with most around here and AR..We seek the ones that will shoot a small hole in the target as opposed to the quaoted minute of grapefruit that is suppposed to be the norm.

If I offended anyone with the 90% statement I apoligise for it you touchy rascals!

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#14942 - 18/05/04 10:17 PM

Well, I've been quietly following this thread for a while now, and can't believe the drivel being posted about British doubles. "If you want a wallhanger...", "for reliability in the field, think again..", "90% of English guns out there are junk", "the bores are bad", "they require a lot of maintenence", "they shoot off the face", etc.

These comments demonstrate extreme prejudice, and I can only wonder at the reasons.

1. The poster himself is unable to tell a good gun from a junker, and has been bitten several times in the past as a result?

2. The poster is unwilling to spend what a good gun is worth, and is attempting to justify his choice of a cheaper modern gun by denigrating fine British arms?

3. The poster doesn't understand the subtlties of handling and gun 'feel', and is happy with a light-actioned, heavy-barrelled, recoil-reduced slug of a gun?

4. The poster actually likes the shiny look of new things generally!

Look, its certainly true that there are plenty of bad deals out there, but I have seen a double or two over the years, courtesy of a gunsmith mate who was Holland's regulator in Oz when he had a shingle, and the two most stuffed doubles I have ever laid eyes on were a Chapuis in 9.3 and a Ferlach in .458. Both post-2ndWar, non-British, modern doubles!

Buying a used double, even a vintage double, is not rocket-science. If the gun is tight, and if recently tightened, done correctly (no peening or squeezing), the bores are bright with good rifling, the internals are crisp with no poorly-finished replacement parts, the ejectors are correctly timed, everything functions correctly, and it shoots, just buy it! I'm getting a bit tired of this 'urban myth' that there is something mystical or sinister about buying a used Brit double, and that you need a PhD in Pommie Gunsmithing to contemplate such a purchase.

The only real killer is bore condition, and its the easiest to judge. Patch it out dry, and look through them. D-uh! Also examine the crowns. Thats it!

The big costs are regulation (test this by shooting, if it regulates, then it regulates! No mystery here!), tightening (simply factor in the cost: five hundred?), and restocking (hey, a stock examination is pretty simple, too!). Check Mickey's posts for some of the finer points.

Having said this, I have acquired a couple of Brit doubles myself for restoration, BP hammerguns, but I never paid more than 3 grand, one was only $1250. The work cost me only time and a few pennies, and now they are fabulous shooters and simply wonderful things to own. I wouldn't swap any of them for 10 Chapuis/Merkel/Kreighoff/Searcy/CalRigbys!

Hunting and shooting are sports, hobbies, and pass-times, even to those of us who earn our living from it, and should be enjoyed, any way you like. You want to shoot a German, Belgian or American double! Thats fine by me. ...EXCEPT that shit-canning pommie doubles seems to be becoming part of the package!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Marrakai]
#14951 - 19/05/04 02:05 AM

Marrakai

Well stated. I think that a certain segment of the 'New is Better' side fit all four of your catagories. There are a lot of people who have or want Doubles that have no understanding of them or what makes one a better choice than another.

I have nothing against the new rifles, they are wonderful for what they are. I just get irritated at times with those who, through a lack of understanding, try to make them more than they are by making older guns less.

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#14958 - 19/05/04 03:54 AM

In reply to:

posted by mickey:

I just get irritated at times with those who, through a lack of understanding, try to make them more than they are by making older guns less.

The irritation runs both ways, as some fans of antique British guns would have us believe that the new guns are junk (even though they are stronger and more reliable than the vintage guns), and that the antique guns somehow are better quality or handle better than the newer guns. As to quality, there are current production guns that beat anything made 100 years ago. Now if you are comparing a London best quality rifle of 1910 to a new $8k double, there will probably be something in the fit and feel of the old best quality gun lacking in the new $8K rifle. But if you compare apples to apples, which I have done, it will be quite a task to justify an antique gun unless you are getting a good price on it or if you just happen to prefer antique rifles (which is fine too).

There are plenty of vintage British rifles out there that are heavier than current production guns and not particularly well made. And there are some out there that were well made but which have been so ill used that they are not good for much. So it is really a clear minority of antique British guns that should even be considered by the discerning sportsman. And most of those come at such a dear price that a new London best quality gun competes with it but has the advantages of modern steel and 100 years more experience and design improvement worked into the rifle.

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bonanza50
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Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 23
Loc: South Carolina, USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#14961 - 19/05/04 04:53 AM

I can't agree more. I had a choice of a new merkel for $5000 + plus some trades or a C&H 500 BPE for $5000. I asked for advice on this forum and my local highend gun dealer - with the express intent of doing a lot of shooting. The responses were pretty much the same. Old guns are a real hoot to shoot, but are very very expensive to repair, it at all. I went with the merkel and am very pleased with the quality, warranty, and cheap factory ammo to boot. It shoots an honest 2.5 inch 8 round group at 50 yards at point of aim.

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vigillinus
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Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 115

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza50]
#15080 - 22/05/04 01:09 PM

Bonanza, IMO five minutes of angle is not acceptable, except maybe in a nitro .577 or .600.

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bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: vigillinus]
#15211 - 26/05/04 04:25 AM

Does anyone out there have a DR that can put 8 consecutive rounds in less than a 2.5 inch square at fifty yards with iron sights that cost less than $8000?

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
#15214 - 26/05/04 08:23 AM

Bonanza

I have a 470 Wilkes at $7500, a 400 3 1/4 Alex Henry and a 9.3x74 Francotte both less than $8000 (the Francotte less than $4500). Also a 450 3 1/4 WR that cost a bit over $10,000.

I have posted pics of the rifles and targets before for all of these. Three minutes of angle should be the maximum acceptabel group for 4 shots. I can no longer see well enough to shoot for accuracy at 100 yards.

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Raff
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Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 182
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
#15220 - 26/05/04 11:28 AM

Bonanza
All 3 of mine will do less than 2 1/2 all day. Friends
400/360 NE I shoot will do less than 1 1/2" for any number
of shots. Off the bench, no rest. All were way less than
8K. All are old Brit. rifles.

Mickey
Can I offer you a hundred dollar profit on any of
those?

Glen

--------------------
.

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Raff]
#15227 - 26/05/04 01:27 PM

In reply to:

Mickey
Can I offer you a hundred dollar profit on any of
those?

Glen

If that is a misprint and you meant to write $10,000 instead of $100 than you may take your pick.

I have a couple others that are equally fairly priced.

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bonanza
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#15247 - 27/05/04 01:20 AM

Let's do the math here. To shoot a 3 moa (3" at 100 yards) 8 shot group, which would mean each barrel is shooting a 1.5" group and the barrels are regulated to 1.5" or less at 100 yards. That is remarkable

--------------------

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"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
#15251 - 27/05/04 06:00 AM

In reply to:

Poster: bonanza
Subject: Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles

Let's do the math here. To shoot a 3 moa (3" at 100 yards) 8 shot group, which would mean each barrel is shooting a 1.5" group and the barrels are regulated to 1.5" or less at 100 yards. That is remarkable

It is not remarkable it is the standard acceptable accuracy of regulation. Only companies that cannot or will not regulate their rifles to this standard claim that 'minute of grapefruit' is what you should expect from a Double Rifle.

If each barrel shoots to 3 minutes of angle and the groups of the point of impact of the two barrels overlays the other than that is what you get. Good regulation and consistent ammunition.

Doubles can change regulation when a scope is added, a stock length is changed, velocity and pressure is changed, bullet weights are changed or the temperature is substantially different than when it was regulated. They can be very sensitive in regards to shooting to point of aim. Not all Doubles are effected by a single change but most are by multiple changes. They can be brought back into regulation by changeing the ammunition pressures and velocities with patience and time.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bonanza
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#15252 - 27/05/04 07:14 AM

Well, that's roughly what I'm getting, unless I fliched. The test target that came with the gun had two holes 3cm apart at 50m I'm told that the bullets cross at 75m and it should print about the same at 100m. I haven't been able to accuratly test the gun at that distance because some fucking jerk shut down the range for a safety violation. We hope to get it back up in 2-3 weeks. I'm also going to reload which will allow me to fine tune the load for 50 yards. Question, should I let the gun cool down between sets.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Spring
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#15254 - 27/05/04 08:55 AM

When you shoot your .470 for the tight groups that you mentioned, do you do it from a bench rest or off-hand while standing?

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NE450No2
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
#15258 - 27/05/04 01:15 PM

bonanza
When first testing loads for a big bore iron sighted double I shoot 4 shots right, left, right, left at 50 yards, either kneeling or sitting. Once a load shows promise I shoot it at 25 yards standing and 100 yards, again kneeling and sitting, and will shoot 6 rounds right, left, etc. I always let the bbls cool down completly between loads. In the summer this can take quite some time, and you will need a leather glove, as the bbl get HOT. The next thing I do is load 50 rounds of my perfected load and go plinking at the deer lease. That is when I test how the rifle, load, and I work together. Shoot a few deer and pigs and then "we" are ready for bigger game.

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4seventy
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
#15261 - 27/05/04 06:08 PM

In reply to:

The test target that came with the gun had two holes 3cm apart at 50m I'm told that the bullets cross at 75m and it should print about the same at 100m.

bonanza, it would be unlikely that a double which is shooting 3cm apart at 50m would cross at 75m.
If a double did do that, it would mean that it was not shooting correctly for one of several reasons.
Maybe the load is not right or the gun is not being held right or the barrel regulation is not right.
Any double that is crossing its shots at 75m is not shooting properly.

In reply to:

Question, should I let the gun cool down between sets.

Try it and see.

I don't worry too much about barrel heat for 4 to 6 shots. (3 from each barrel)
If, due to barrel heat , a double lost its accuracy after only 2 shots, it would not be much of a rifle IMO.

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bonanza
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
#15264 - 27/05/04 11:57 PM

Ok, that was my guess they cross at 75m. They have to cross somewhere that is how a double shoots, a big X. I reckoned if the bullets shoot the same regulation at 50 and 100, they must be crossing at 75. Any wisdom would be greatly appreciated. Again, I'm severely limited to testing at this point, due to my rifle range being shut down.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
#15270 - 28/05/04 01:56 AM

bonanza

Theoretically the bullets never have to cross. Practically speaking they due, but they should not cross until well past 100 yards.

Are you sure your groups at 100 meters have crossed or are they still running parralel? If they have not crossed and are 3 cm at 50 meteres than your rifle is shooting fine. No worries.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bonanza
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
#15274 - 28/05/04 03:43 AM

I have not had a chance to shoot at 100 yards yet. I've only been able to get a few shoots in at our 50 yard pistol range, by the grace of the range officer. When the rifle range opens, I'll take a very scientific approach to determining the best loads at 50 & 100 yards. I also think I need to “learn” how to shoot this gun.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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4seventy
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
#15282 - 28/05/04 08:11 AM

In reply to:

They have to cross somewhere that is how a double shoots, a big X.

bonanza, like Mick says, this should not happen if all is well with the rifle and the loads and the shooting hold.

There has been this myth about the bullets starting off at the barrel spacing width and then reaching a certain distance which the myth perpertrators call "the regulation distance", then at that distance the shots cross and will again be the barrel spacing width crossed at twice the "regulation distance"!

Total crap!

If you shone two lazer beams out of the muzzle centers they would maybe do what I've just described above, but this is NOT what happens to the bullet paths of a correctly regulated double shooting correct loads and being shot correctly!

Graeme Wright has a very good description on bullet paths of doubles in his "Shooting The British Double Rifle" book.
This is a must have book for double owners IMO.

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Geronimo
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
#15285 - 28/05/04 09:48 AM

Amen, I totally agree about the regulation and about Graeme Wright's book being a must have for any double rifle shooter, regardless of experience.

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NE450No2
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Geronimo]
#15287 - 28/05/04 01:41 PM

My 9,3x74R Chapuis shoots farther apart at 300 yards than at 100 or 200 yards. The right bbl hits on the right and the left bbl hits on the left.
With 286 Nosler Partitions, if the right bbl is adjusted [actually the scope is adjusted] to where it hits point of aim at 300 yards, the left bbl hits 3 inches left and 3 inches lower.
The composite group is 5 1/2 to 6 inches.
The 286 Woodleigh's hit @ 7 inches apart, the left bbl hits 4 inches lower.

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NitroX
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: NE450No2]
#15291 - 28/05/04 07:04 PM

In reply to:

at 300 yards, the left bbl hits 3 inches left and 3 inches lower.
The composite group is 5 1/2 to 6 inches.

Which is only 2 MOA and not bad at all.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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Marrakai
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: NE450No2]
#15294 - 28/05/04 10:57 PM

This is a good time to voice my astonishment that the owner of a scoped double rifle would zero the crosshairs on one barrel-group, rather than at the centre of the composite group! Its a DOUBLE! Sight it in accordingly! Those guys in denial, go buy a single or bolt-gun and leave the doubles to the cognoscente! (

)

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Marrakai]
#15298 - 28/05/04 11:34 PM

In reply to:

These comments demonstrate extreme prejudice, and I can only wonder at the reasons.

1. The poster himself is unable to tell a good gun from a junker, and has been bitten several times in the past as a result?

2. The poster is unwilling to spend what a good gun is worth, and is attempting to justify his choice of a cheaper modern gun by denigrating fine British arms?

3. The poster doesn't understand the subtlties of handling and gun 'feel', and is happy with a light-actioned, heavy-barrelled, recoil-reduced slug of a gun?

4. The poster actually likes the shiny look of new things generally!

AND

In reply to:

...leave the doubles to the cognoscente!

The cognoscenti probably have access to a dictionary. I will let the rest of the remarks stand, as the writer likely resembles them.

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NitroX
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Marrakai]
#15301 - 29/05/04 02:06 AM

I think the key word was "if" ie "if" the scope was adjusted.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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Peterb
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: NitroX]
#17356 - 28/07/04 04:26 PM

Great thread. Just a few points. The Brits took their doubles (rifles or shotguns) back to the manufacturer quite often for cleaning up. That might be stock dings or rust spots or bluing/blacking wear. This does not detract from value as it would with a vintage Winchester lever gun. They thought of it as a simple tuneup like we would take a car in. Now for more extreme work, tightening is not that tough a job for a QUALIFIED gunsmith (there are not that many of them in the US) and usually runs around $200. That is about the same cost as rust bluing. That doesn't hurt value in my estimation. Removing excess oil from stocks, dings, etc depends on the amount of work needed. If necessary, stock replacement is not all that expensive if you go to the right person. I am a wood dealer and know the right people. The main problem is that it can take some time for someone who is both inexpensive and a quality worker. If you need names, I can give you several. The main thing to look for in a double of any kind is barrel condition. That is #1 through #6.

Now I have had a couple old doubles and the problems as I see in them are in handling. The Brit guns are nice but the older ones are a couple pounds heavier in the 470 class than the new guns. 10 pounds I can live with. 12 pounds is no fun to carry or throw to your shoulder in a hurry. That is my opinion, you are welcome to your own. That is the nicest thing about todays guns...most in this class will run about 10 pounds. Now a real treat are the 9.3 x 74's which are considerably lighter, but we'll stick to apples vs apples. Now I tried all the new affordable doubles. I really liked the feel of the Blaser double but don't want anything to do with that silly and maybe dangerously slow secondary cocking system. I can match the feel with the Searcy with modifying the wood a bit. I went down and saw Butch and tried the guns and loved them. Now I gave him my own piece of wood to use...an exhibition grade full feather piece of seed English denser than hell with vibrant colors like Claro. I'll do a bit of carving on the cheeks and the final gun will be unreal. Of course, Butch is adding a set of 12 Ga 3" barrels with tubes for chukar thinning and getting used to the gun. Maybe even a round of trap now and then. The 12 Ga barrels are a $3500 option.

Anyways, I am looking forward to the gun and am about two months away.

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vigillinus
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double rifles - false restorations, accuracy. [Re: Peterb]
#17394 - 29/07/04 03:51 PM

My pet peeve are the guns advertised as "restored to new in England" which look good outside but have horrible bores. Who do the vendors think they're kidding?

Also, to check groups, use a Merit iris eyepiece with a suction cup on your shooting glasses, this sharpens up the open sights wonderfully.

I agree with the posters who insist on at least three minutes of angle for a four shot composite group at 100 yards. If your rifle won't deliver this kind of accuracy get rid of it. There is no reason why a 10g+ double shouldn't regulate to shoot as well as a Winchester 94 30-30.

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atkinson6
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Re: double rifles - false restorations, accuracy. [Re: vigillinus]
#17474 - 31/07/04 05:33 AM

Damn few doubles will shoot 3 inches at 100 yards, more like 5 to 8 inches is the norm in the real world, but they are not for shooting at 100 yards, they are for shooting up close an personal, 25 and 50 yards...Some have a 100 yard double, but they are the exception or the expert who can tune one well, not average Joe...In fact damn few shooters can shoot 3" at 100 yds with a hard kicking double. Most 30-30s, as a matter of fact, will shoot circles around most doubles.

This does not apply to 450 No.2, Mac, Rusty, 500 grs, Micky1, and some of these guys, as its a passion with them and if the gun would deliver to their expectations, they would dump it in a heartbeat. Include me in that group..

If average Joe wants accuracy then use the bolt gun...its inherently more accurate by design...

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Peterb
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Peterb]
#20738 - 10/11/04 07:44 AM

The shotgun barrels finally arrived from Pac-Nor and the finished gun is now a month away. This is worse than waiting for Christmas as a kid! I'd better get busy reloading. Butch uses 108 Gr IMR 4831 and Woodley 500's with a velocity of 2250 FPS. I'll include a photo when it gets here. Super wood!

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bonanza
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Re: double rifles - false restorations, accuracy. [Re: atkinson6]
#20739 - 10/11/04 08:08 AM

I'm getting six shot groups in the 2.4 - 2.6 at 50 yards, that is what I record in my load journal.

I've have sub-inch 2 shot groups at 50 yards.

Do you guys shoot 2, 4, or 6 when stating the accuracy of your DR?

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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nitro476
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
#20749 - 10/11/04 12:09 PM

Hello 500 grains.

Craig also has an Andrews 470 double rifle that he has used in Africa. I am not certain if he still has it or not!

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wombat
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: wombat]
#33839 - 25/06/05 06:40 PM

After all the talk here is the rifle I ended up ordering.
A Searcy 500 nitro express double,of coarse.
I also opted for scope mounts but have yet to install them.
Thanks to the advice from members-and a lovely piece of kit it is too.
The paperwork between Australia and the USA is terrible but can be done-if this is what you want don't let the bureaucrats beat you.
By the way, the rifle is resting on an impala skin.

Edited by wombat (27/06/05 08:06 PM)

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475Guy
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: wombat]
#33851 - 26/06/05 01:49 AM

Very Nice! I love the look of dark wood over the lighter wood. How much does it weigh? You shoot it yet?

--------------------
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Palmer
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: wombat]
#33860 - 26/06/05 07:22 AM

Here is my new Searcy 470. I've been shooting it about two weeks now. My first impressions are:

The wood was better than I expected.

It shoots better than I expected - 1 1/2" four shot group at 50 yds.

The engraving is better than the Merkle I had but definately not as good as the classic Westley Richards etc.

It is well balanced and I like the 24 inch barrels.

Best of all it is made to fit me. As a result the sights are aligned just right when I bring it to the shoulder.

All in all it is not too pretty to use but is good looking enough that its great to just pull it out of the cabinet and look it over.

It is just what I wanted. Thank you Butch.

--------------------
ALLEN W. JOHNSON

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wombat
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Palmer]
#33863 - 26/06/05 10:22 AM

Hello palmer-good to hear you eventually got your hands on it.
I agree with your views.
The wood and engraving are surprisingly good for a base level rifle.
Also the fit of my rifle is very good-at 6'3" tall I realise I have never had a rifle that fits properly before.
Wood to metal finish is good without being perfect-but this is not a 150K rifle.
Only had one range session,just trying to work-out some loads over a chrony since I can't find IMR4831 that Butch uses so can't speak to true accuracy yet but all has worked perfectly so far.
At this point I would recommend Butch to anyone wanting a realistically priced hunting double.

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Maineguide
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: wombat]
#33868 - 26/06/05 01:29 PM

All these guns are making me crazy. I have a Searcy in .577 that should be in next week and I can't wait. This thread has pushed me over the edge

Maineguide

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clark7781
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Maineguide]
#33893 - 27/06/05 05:51 AM

Maineguide:

Lucky SOB! Our .577 isn't due in until after the first of the year!!!!!

You have to post some pics of your bad-boy when it arrives!

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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Maineguide
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: clark7781]
#33903 - 27/06/05 09:17 AM

Clark,

I will as soon as it arrives,

Maineguide

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adam470
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: NitroX]
#34135 - 30/06/05 08:52 PM

Hi Wombat I have a few questions for you on you'r Searcy What brass will you be using for the 500Searcy,did you have any hassles importing it to Aus and did it come through Smith's in Sydney? also i was interested to see if you had any luck sorting a Buff hunt since your enquiry last year?
That 500 would be lovely in that Zambezi Jess.
Cheers Adam.

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338X74R
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Palmer]
#34191 - 02/07/05 07:02 AM

That is very nice wood in the stock! Is it standard?

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wombat
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: adam470]
#34197 - 02/07/05 10:27 AM

Butch sent over the HDS brass and the dies seperately.
I had no trouble except you do need a B709A-I thought I might be in for problems since I did not a rifle in that caliber when the brass arrived but the firearms registry were helpful enough to just send it along.GST is paid
on the "sum listed on the reciept" plus postage and insurance.

Edited by wombat (02/07/05 10:37 AM)

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Maineguide
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: wombat]
#34234 - 03/07/05 12:16 AM

Awesome gun Palmer!! Thanks for the pics

Maineguide

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Palmer
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Maineguide]
#34241 - 03/07/05 02:37 AM

Thanks Mainguide. I am looking forward to giving this rifle its first bush scratches in Tanzania in about 6 weeks.

338x74R: As far as the wood in my rifle was concerned it was just "the luck of the draw" I suppose.

I suspect that one could be more active in personally picking out your wood but Butch seems to be very intent on buying good wood for his projects anyway and I figured he knew more about it than I did so I just let him pick it.

I'm sure he would be happy to discuss it with anyone that had a special type in mind.

--------------------
ALLEN W. JOHNSON

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Maineguide
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Palmer]
#34242 - 03/07/05 02:44 AM

Palmer,

Make sure we get a blow by blow of you trip. I just finished watching Death by double rifle and its a great video, packed with action and fine doubles. I just got my Searcy in the pics are listed under the post Maineguide one more day. Check it out.

Maineguide

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338X74R
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Palmer]
#34396 - 07/07/05 12:51 AM

Is that a PH model or a deluxe model?
Do you know what kind of recoil pad is used? I see that some of the Searcy guns have black/brown pads and some have red pads.
A close-up photo of the engraving and the front sight would be nice if you have the possibility...

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bonanza
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 338X74R]
#34399 - 07/07/05 01:39 AM

You guys and your .577s are frigging insane!!! My 470 thumps me hard enough. I'd be flat on my ass if I shot one of those cannons

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

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clark7781
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
#34404 - 07/07/05 05:17 AM

In reply to:

You guys and your .577s are frigging insane!!! My 470 thumps me hard enough. I'd be flat on my ass if I shot one of those cannons

I've already started taking a daily dose of asprin to help decrease the headache I'll get from shooting that thing...

...the gun's not getting here until January '06!

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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new_guy
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: clark7781]
#34406 - 07/07/05 05:35 AM

might try strengthening your retinas as well!

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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CptCurl
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: new_guy]
#34408 - 07/07/05 06:43 AM

Can anybody tell me whether Searcy uses investment castings for his action and other large parts?

Thanks,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: CptCurl]
#34411 - 07/07/05 07:39 AM

No, he mills them from a block of steel.

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Doc52
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Reged: 10/01/05
Posts: 24
Loc: Bucks County, Penna. USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Palmer]
#34417 - 07/07/05 12:01 PM

You have a fine looking DG...Butch sure makes a fine double..I can't wait for my 577NE to be finished...I'm like a kid at Christmas time...
Doc52

PEACE..THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER

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Palmer
.224 member

Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 15
Loc: Missouri

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Doc52]
#34439 - 07/07/05 11:57 PM

Doc 52,
Im sure you will not be disappointed and your rifle will be worth waiting for. It sounds like you have been going about it the right way - going out there to discuss it etc.

338x74R
Here is a somewhat fuzzy picture of my front sight. Sorry the camera doesn't focus close enough to get it clearer. I have a gold bead but probably the ivory would be easier to see in low light conditions.

The engraving is just like Wombats rifle but as you know, one could get a special engraving done if you want. The butt pad is a Pachmeyer. Butch picked out the color of the pad. My rifle is a PH model.

--------------------
ALLEN W. JOHNSON

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338X74R
.275 member

Reged: 19/05/04
Posts: 51
Loc: Norway

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Palmer]
#34448 - 08/07/05 04:05 AM

Thank you Palmer,
this is great news. I have been looking for the red Pachmayr delelerator pad for a long time. I just checked their web-site, and they have recently reintroduced it!

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Doc52
.224 member

Reged: 10/01/05
Posts: 24
Loc: Bucks County, Penna. USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Palmer]
#34693 - 15/07/05 08:26 AM

Palmer,
You have an awesome DG there, Butch makes a truely fine DG, in my honest opinion. I met with Butch to finalize my .577NE
I must express, that this was definatly a great experience for me! Butch is, with out a doubt, a great gun maker, as well as a staight shooting, no bullshit everyday Joe! I cannot begin to express how much fun I had with him! He makes a fine DG! I cannot wait to post photos of my finished .577NE!

Peace, Through Superior Firepower!

Doc52

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wombat
.300 member

Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Australia

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: CptCurl]
#35061 - 25/07/05 09:38 PM

I am no expert in such matters but my discussions with Butch led me to believe that he machines his action "in-house" using a block of steel and a computer controlled lathe.

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: wombat]
#35063 - 25/07/05 10:55 PM

Wombat, your understanding is correct.

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Doc52
.224 member

Reged: 10/01/05
Posts: 24
Loc: Bucks County, Penna. USA

Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: wombat]
#35149 - 28/07/05 03:18 AM

Wombat
You are correct, I have seen first hand Butch's operation! He has a CNC machine that he uses to machine the actions of all of his rifles, be it DG, or bolt!

Peace, Through Superior Firepower!

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