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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
      #14908 - 18/05/04 04:06 AM

The 90% number was an off the wall comment, to make a point that I beleive to be true but to what % I have no clue..

The point is most of the doubles in my price range of $10 to $12,000 have bores that have shot too much cordite, surely no one is going to deny that and most have been reblacked ( a common practice back then ) and few have ever had the locks and inside checked IMO...Now that is what I have seen...

This does not effect those who have a knowledge of double rifles, they simply put them back on the table and look for something else...But the number of bad guns I see in proud owners possession is sometimes an amazment to me and you guys know thats a fact...

Now I have also owned some bad bored guns that shot like a house on fire, and they suited me fine because that is my primary concern, my number one criteria as it is with most around here and AR..We seek the ones that will shoot a small hole in the target as opposed to the quaoted minute of grapefruit that is suppposed to be the norm.

If I offended anyone with the 90% statement I apoligise for it you touchy rascals!

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3496
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
      #14942 - 18/05/04 10:17 PM

Well, I've been quietly following this thread for a while now, and can't believe the drivel being posted about British doubles. "If you want a wallhanger...", "for reliability in the field, think again..", "90% of English guns out there are junk", "the bores are bad", "they require a lot of maintenence", "they shoot off the face", etc.

These comments demonstrate extreme prejudice, and I can only wonder at the reasons.

1. The poster himself is unable to tell a good gun from a junker, and has been bitten several times in the past as a result?

2. The poster is unwilling to spend what a good gun is worth, and is attempting to justify his choice of a cheaper modern gun by denigrating fine British arms?

3. The poster doesn't understand the subtlties of handling and gun 'feel', and is happy with a light-actioned, heavy-barrelled, recoil-reduced slug of a gun?

4. The poster actually likes the shiny look of new things generally!

Look, its certainly true that there are plenty of bad deals out there, but I have seen a double or two over the years, courtesy of a gunsmith mate who was Holland's regulator in Oz when he had a shingle, and the two most stuffed doubles I have ever laid eyes on were a Chapuis in 9.3 and a Ferlach in .458. Both post-2ndWar, non-British, modern doubles!

Buying a used double, even a vintage double, is not rocket-science. If the gun is tight, and if recently tightened, done correctly (no peening or squeezing), the bores are bright with good rifling, the internals are crisp with no poorly-finished replacement parts, the ejectors are correctly timed, everything functions correctly, and it shoots, just buy it! I'm getting a bit tired of this 'urban myth' that there is something mystical or sinister about buying a used Brit double, and that you need a PhD in Pommie Gunsmithing to contemplate such a purchase.

The only real killer is bore condition, and its the easiest to judge. Patch it out dry, and look through them. D-uh! Also examine the crowns. Thats it!

The big costs are regulation (test this by shooting, if it regulates, then it regulates! No mystery here!), tightening (simply factor in the cost: five hundred?), and restocking (hey, a stock examination is pretty simple, too!). Check Mickey's posts for some of the finer points.

Having said this, I have acquired a couple of Brit doubles myself for restoration, BP hammerguns, but I never paid more than 3 grand, one was only $1250. The work cost me only time and a few pennies, and now they are fabulous shooters and simply wonderful things to own. I wouldn't swap any of them for 10 Chapuis/Merkel/Kreighoff/Searcy/CalRigbys!

Hunting and shooting are sports, hobbies, and pass-times, even to those of us who earn our living from it, and should be enjoyed, any way you like. You want to shoot a German, Belgian or American double! Thats fine by me. ...EXCEPT that shit-canning pommie doubles seems to be becoming part of the package!



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #14951 - 19/05/04 02:05 AM

Marrakai

Well stated. I think that a certain segment of the 'New is Better' side fit all four of your catagories. There are a lot of people who have or want Doubles that have no understanding of them or what makes one a better choice than another.

I have nothing against the new rifles, they are wonderful for what they are. I just get irritated at times with those who, through a lack of understanding, try to make them more than they are by making older guns less.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
      #14958 - 19/05/04 03:54 AM

In reply to:

posted by mickey:

I just get irritated at times with those who, through a lack of understanding, try to make them more than they are by making older guns less.



The irritation runs both ways, as some fans of antique British guns would have us believe that the new guns are junk (even though they are stronger and more reliable than the vintage guns), and that the antique guns somehow are better quality or handle better than the newer guns. As to quality, there are current production guns that beat anything made 100 years ago. Now if you are comparing a London best quality rifle of 1910 to a new $8k double, there will probably be something in the fit and feel of the old best quality gun lacking in the new $8K rifle. But if you compare apples to apples, which I have done, it will be quite a task to justify an antique gun unless you are getting a good price on it or if you just happen to prefer antique rifles (which is fine too).

There are plenty of vintage British rifles out there that are heavier than current production guns and not particularly well made. And there are some out there that were well made but which have been so ill used that they are not good for much. So it is really a clear minority of antique British guns that should even be considered by the discerning sportsman. And most of those come at such a dear price that a new London best quality gun competes with it but has the advantages of modern steel and 100 years more experience and design improvement worked into the rifle.

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bonanza50
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Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 23
Loc: South Carolina, USA
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
      #14961 - 19/05/04 04:53 AM

I can't agree more. I had a choice of a new merkel for $5000 + plus some trades or a C&H 500 BPE for $5000. I asked for advice on this forum and my local highend gun dealer - with the express intent of doing a lot of shooting. The responses were pretty much the same. Old guns are a real hoot to shoot, but are very very expensive to repair, it at all. I went with the merkel and am very pleased with the quality, warranty, and cheap factory ammo to boot. It shoots an honest 2.5 inch 8 round group at 50 yards at point of aim.

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vigillinus
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Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 115
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza50]
      #15080 - 22/05/04 01:09 PM


Bonanza, IMO five minutes of angle is not acceptable, except maybe in a nitro .577 or .600.

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bonanza
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: vigillinus]
      #15211 - 26/05/04 04:25 AM

Does anyone out there have a DR that can put 8 consecutive rounds in less than a 2.5 inch square at fifty yards with iron sights that cost less than $8000?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
      #15214 - 26/05/04 08:23 AM

Bonanza

I have a 470 Wilkes at $7500, a 400 3 1/4 Alex Henry and a 9.3x74 Francotte both less than $8000 (the Francotte less than $4500). Also a 450 3 1/4 WR that cost a bit over $10,000.


I have posted pics of the rifles and targets before for all of these. Three minutes of angle should be the maximum acceptabel group for 4 shots. I can no longer see well enough to shoot for accuracy at 100 yards.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Raff
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Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 182
Loc: Texas
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
      #15220 - 26/05/04 11:28 AM

Bonanza
All 3 of mine will do less than 2 1/2 all day. Friends
400/360 NE I shoot will do less than 1 1/2" for any number
of shots. Off the bench, no rest. All were way less than
8K. All are old Brit. rifles.

Mickey
Can I offer you a hundred dollar profit on any of
those?

Glen

--------------------
.

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Raff]
      #15227 - 26/05/04 01:27 PM

In reply to:

Mickey
Can I offer you a hundred dollar profit on any of
those?

Glen




If that is a misprint and you meant to write $10,000 instead of $100 than you may take your pick. I have a couple others that are equally fairly priced.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
      #15247 - 27/05/04 01:20 AM

Let's do the math here. To shoot a 3 moa (3" at 100 yards) 8 shot group, which would mean each barrel is shooting a 1.5" group and the barrels are regulated to 1.5" or less at 100 yards. That is remarkable

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
      #15251 - 27/05/04 06:00 AM

In reply to:

Poster: bonanza
Subject: Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles

Let's do the math here. To shoot a 3 moa (3" at 100 yards) 8 shot group, which would mean each barrel is shooting a 1.5" group and the barrels are regulated to 1.5" or less at 100 yards. That is remarkable




It is not remarkable it is the standard acceptable accuracy of regulation. Only companies that cannot or will not regulate their rifles to this standard claim that 'minute of grapefruit' is what you should expect from a Double Rifle.

If each barrel shoots to 3 minutes of angle and the groups of the point of impact of the two barrels overlays the other than that is what you get. Good regulation and consistent ammunition.

Doubles can change regulation when a scope is added, a stock length is changed, velocity and pressure is changed, bullet weights are changed or the temperature is substantially different than when it was regulated. They can be very sensitive in regards to shooting to point of aim. Not all Doubles are effected by a single change but most are by multiple changes. They can be brought back into regulation by changeing the ammunition pressures and velocities with patience and time.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
      #15252 - 27/05/04 07:14 AM

Well, that's roughly what I'm getting, unless I fliched. The test target that came with the gun had two holes 3cm apart at 50m I'm told that the bullets cross at 75m and it should print about the same at 100m. I haven't been able to accuratly test the gun at that distance because some fucking jerk shut down the range for a safety violation. We hope to get it back up in 2-3 weeks. I'm also going to reload which will allow me to fine tune the load for 50 yards. Question, should I let the gun cool down between sets.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Spring
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Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 104
Loc: Georgia
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
      #15254 - 27/05/04 08:55 AM

When you shoot your .470 for the tight groups that you mentioned, do you do it from a bench rest or off-hand while standing?

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
      #15258 - 27/05/04 01:15 PM

bonanza
When first testing loads for a big bore iron sighted double I shoot 4 shots right, left, right, left at 50 yards, either kneeling or sitting. Once a load shows promise I shoot it at 25 yards standing and 100 yards, again kneeling and sitting, and will shoot 6 rounds right, left, etc. I always let the bbls cool down completly between loads. In the summer this can take quite some time, and you will need a leather glove, as the bbl get HOT. The next thing I do is load 50 rounds of my perfected load and go plinking at the deer lease. That is when I test how the rifle, load, and I work together. Shoot a few deer and pigs and then "we" are ready for bigger game.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
      #15261 - 27/05/04 06:08 PM

In reply to:

The test target that came with the gun had two holes 3cm apart at 50m I'm told that the bullets cross at 75m and it should print about the same at 100m.



bonanza, it would be unlikely that a double which is shooting 3cm apart at 50m would cross at 75m.
If a double did do that, it would mean that it was not shooting correctly for one of several reasons.
Maybe the load is not right or the gun is not being held right or the barrel regulation is not right.
Any double that is crossing its shots at 75m is not shooting properly.

In reply to:

Question, should I let the gun cool down between sets.



Try it and see.
I don't worry too much about barrel heat for 4 to 6 shots. (3 from each barrel)
If, due to barrel heat , a double lost its accuracy after only 2 shots, it would not be much of a rifle IMO.



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bonanza
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
      #15264 - 27/05/04 11:57 PM

Ok, that was my guess they cross at 75m. They have to cross somewhere that is how a double shoots, a big X. I reckoned if the bullets shoot the same regulation at 50 and 100, they must be crossing at 75. Any wisdom would be greatly appreciated. Again, I'm severely limited to testing at this point, due to my rifle range being shut down.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
      #15270 - 28/05/04 01:56 AM

bonanza

Theoretically the bullets never have to cross. Practically speaking they due, but they should not cross until well past 100 yards.

Are you sure your groups at 100 meters have crossed or are they still running parralel? If they have not crossed and are 3 cm at 50 meteres than your rifle is shooting fine. No worries.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
      #15274 - 28/05/04 03:43 AM

I have not had a chance to shoot at 100 yards yet. I've only been able to get a few shoots in at our 50 yard pistol range, by the grace of the range officer. When the rifle range opens, I'll take a very scientific approach to determining the best loads at 50 & 100 yards. I also think I need to “learn” how to shoot this gun.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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4seventy
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: bonanza]
      #15282 - 28/05/04 08:11 AM

In reply to:

They have to cross somewhere that is how a double shoots, a big X.



bonanza, like Mick says, this should not happen if all is well with the rifle and the loads and the shooting hold.

There has been this myth about the bullets starting off at the barrel spacing width and then reaching a certain distance which the myth perpertrators call "the regulation distance", then at that distance the shots cross and will again be the barrel spacing width crossed at twice the "regulation distance"!

Total crap!

If you shone two lazer beams out of the muzzle centers they would maybe do what I've just described above, but this is NOT what happens to the bullet paths of a correctly regulated double shooting correct loads and being shot correctly!

Graeme Wright has a very good description on bullet paths of doubles in his "Shooting The British Double Rifle" book.
This is a must have book for double owners IMO.



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Geronimo
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
      #15285 - 28/05/04 09:48 AM

Amen, I totally agree about the regulation and about Graeme Wright's book being a must have for any double rifle shooter, regardless of experience.

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Geronimo]
      #15287 - 28/05/04 01:41 PM

My 9,3x74R Chapuis shoots farther apart at 300 yards than at 100 or 200 yards. The right bbl hits on the right and the left bbl hits on the left.
With 286 Nosler Partitions, if the right bbl is adjusted [actually the scope is adjusted] to where it hits point of aim at 300 yards, the left bbl hits 3 inches left and 3 inches lower.
The composite group is 5 1/2 to 6 inches.
The 286 Woodleigh's hit @ 7 inches apart, the left bbl hits 4 inches lower.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: NE450No2]
      #15291 - 28/05/04 07:04 PM

In reply to:

at 300 yards, the left bbl hits 3 inches left and 3 inches lower.
The composite group is 5 1/2 to 6 inches.




Which is only 2 MOA and not bad at all.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3496
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: NE450No2]
      #15294 - 28/05/04 10:57 PM

This is a good time to voice my astonishment that the owner of a scoped double rifle would zero the crosshairs on one barrel-group, rather than at the centre of the composite group! Its a DOUBLE! Sight it in accordingly! Those guys in denial, go buy a single or bolt-gun and leave the doubles to the cognoscente! ( )

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #15298 - 28/05/04 11:34 PM

In reply to:

These comments demonstrate extreme prejudice, and I can only wonder at the reasons.

1. The poster himself is unable to tell a good gun from a junker, and has been bitten several times in the past as a result?

2. The poster is unwilling to spend what a good gun is worth, and is attempting to justify his choice of a cheaper modern gun by denigrating fine British arms?

3. The poster doesn't understand the subtlties of handling and gun 'feel', and is happy with a light-actioned, heavy-barrelled, recoil-reduced slug of a gun?

4. The poster actually likes the shiny look of new things generally!



AND

In reply to:

...leave the doubles to the cognoscente!



The cognoscenti probably have access to a dictionary. I will let the rest of the remarks stand, as the writer likely resembles them.




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