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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
      #12592 - 27/03/04 02:56 PM

Why, are you going to give Butch an offer he can't refuse? Shoot a couple of ele's and buff's and sing his praises and maybe get a new one? Heh, Heh.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
      #12593 - 27/03/04 03:08 PM

Do you mean has he offered me a deal? No of course not. No, I don't see anything wrong with it, I thought I said that. I do think that if someone is promoting any product for a fee though that it should be clear and upfront.

We know that Tiger Woods recommends and is the spokesman for some brand of Golf clubs. If he did it because he loved this brand and recieved no renumertion it would make his endorsement more valid. But since he gets paid a lot of money for it his recommendation is judged accordingly. Don't you think?

Sullivan may have ended up with a Watson Bros. I don't know as I don't follow his stuff but he also had a Thys that is on one of his videos. Perhaps someone that has it will bring it up.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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ThomasEdwards
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Reged: 04/01/04
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: mickey]
      #12599 - 27/03/04 05:26 PM

...mark has a marcel thys & son best grade .600ne...

...he also has a watson bros.royal grade .700ne...

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #12609 - 27/03/04 10:40 PM

There is also a big difference between positive promotions and negative promoting ie blagging the competition for a fee.

The industry I work in has always had an industry co-operative approach (within reason). In the end unfair criticism is returned in kind and end up costing every participant sales. Remember what one player can do the competitors can do back. And around and around it goes down the toiilet hole.

Imagine the situation where product A promoters blagg product B amd C, B blaggs A and C, C blaggs all the rest too. What does the consumer do? He buys a bolt action.

If a product is good, it will sell on its merits and with no need to criticise the competition.


Of course fair criticism and true personal experiences are a different matter. I personally do not have the direct experience with most of these brands but I fail to see how 90% of double rifle manufacturers can sell their rifles year after year and often to the same customer buying more than one if they are as bad as some say.


Now Mickey and I had an off-forum discussion. I am perfectly willing to be a unbiased blank page for all the manufacturers to send me to try out free of charge, of course!

PS I would believe it when I see it.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #12646 - 28/03/04 04:48 AM

Mickey,
I have known Butch since he only made bolt guns in New Mexico and was near starvation, and let me relate to you a story...

Johan Calitz whom I book for and who is one of Butchs best friends whom Butch hunts and books for also, was in Butches shop one day and was haggling on a price for his first double, Butch told him to F... off, pay the price or keep shooting a bolt gun...Johan now has 5 of his guns and paid top dollar for all of them....I have heard Johan tell this story a dozen times to folks, its his best story...

I got a small discount on my double and thats the first one I have ever gotten from Butch, but I did Butch a big one time favor one time and I have found him some nice wood fron time to time without commission, and he wanted to pay me back for that, I had even forgotten it, but their never was a word said to me about promoting his guns and I have bought used Searcy bolt guns (trade ins) from Butch over the years, in fact my 416 is one of those I bought at SCI, and nothing has been mentioned about promoting for him...some other companies have made such an offer and I have turned them down because I frankly didn't like their products...

I doubt that Butches nature would allow him to make such deals, he is a stright shooter and says whats on his mind and you will always know where you stand with him, and I doubt if he really cares who shoots his rifles..He has a good product and knows it and really does not need any good words, as anyone who has one promotes them for the most part, I do , 500 does, Judge G, Johann Calitz and many others, But if he did make such a deal it would be perfectly legitamate as you stated...

I have made a few deals on hunts in the past to get them filmed and promoted on TV or in magazine articles, but I volenteered it and was not approached on it...It's called free interprise..

Just wanted to clear the air because such statements tend to be negative or rather create a negative atmosphere, and in this case perhaps not, but it comes across that way in most cases like these...I realise that you claified that, so my post is not aimed directly at you, but to all who post here and make such comments from time to time, self included, We should think about how our posts come across IMO....We are probably all guilty of this from time to time, I know I am...

500,
I never said that in a past post that I know off..I said I could make myself shoot the big kickers, but never liked it, and had to concentrate on not flinching, something I don't have to do with the 40 calibers...

You are right, I am not going to re-regulate the rifle and I am working on trying to find a 2000 FPS load with Woodleigh or Rhino bullets, perhaps GS since Bridger got out of the bullet business...then like you say, I will have the option....

I got to thinking about this Searcy guns accuracy in as much as it touches both bullets at 50 yards and boy, if it ain't broke, don't fix it came to mind, and what if I ruined that kind of accuracy, so I went the route you suggested with a slight modification of using regular bullets....But I do have some cast bullets coming from a friend who posts here for me to try out, I may get into the casting business yet....

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470Rigby
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: grizzaffi]
      #12663 - 28/03/04 07:11 AM

Griffazi - I messed around with paper-patched cast .458 lead bullets in my 470 some years back - worked OK, but very fiddly! Had thought of getting a custom mould made up - but sloth won the day. I will see if I can get one of the NEI moulds. I would be interested to know what powder(s) you worked with?

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
      #12670 - 28/03/04 08:11 AM

Ray

I think by your reply that you have heard this or similar before. I was passing on some comments that some dealers have mentioned. I really don't care one way or the other as I know this goes on in all business's in all walks of life. In my previous employment I was offered a number of 'perks of position' in exchange for my endorsement or recomendations. It is amazing how they all dry up when your not in a position help anymore and in a position to actually take advantage.

As a minor partner in a couple of Outfitting business we are constantly being bombarded by would be writers and agents offering their recommendation and/or articles about us in exchange for free hunts. I have never seen one that was worth it's salt and if guys like Craig Boddington can pay for there hunts so can everyone else.

Agents can get a free hunts in exchange for commissions not taken but that is the same as paying, except we are the bank.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
      #12679 - 28/03/04 01:53 PM

Ray,

I recall over on AR some time ago that a posting that you did not see value in reduced loads for practice. Personally I like shooting some 45-70 power loads for practice.

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atkinson6
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
      #12737 - 29/03/04 07:06 AM

500,
Yes, that is correct, but I do not consider a 500 gr. bullet at 2100 a reduced load, rather I see it as a more practical load....I still have the option of both and if I practice with the 2245 FPS load, then when I shoot the 2100 FPS load, I will think I have died and gone to heaven...Thats the way I handle recoil, and it maintains my controled flinch...

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
      #12787 - 30/03/04 07:03 AM

Ray
I highly recommend you give some Hawk 350gr bullets a try. Load them with the same powder charge as the 500grains and see how they shoot. Adjust the powder charge if necessary. I do this in my 450 No2 for use at the deer lease and for practice. They hit EXACTLY the same place as the full power 480/500gr bullets. They are easier on the rifle and on my shoulder. Work better on Texas game too.
You probably never should have sold your Army&Navy 450/400 3 1/4", but Aggie is glad you did.
Other posters take note... There is a BIG jump in recoil from a 450/400 to a 470.
Not so apparent in firing at game but noticable in practice for sure.

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chrispie
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Reged: 30/01/04
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Loc: New England, USA
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: NE450No2]
      #12793 - 30/03/04 11:01 AM

just recently purchased a searcy 470, i was told that butch regulates his guns with federal ammo, so i'v been on line trying to look up any and all different types of loads, and i came across this one that dupicates the federal load.
Has anyone tryied this load ?

So, I reckoned that, if the Federal shoots so well in my gun and if my gun is regulated for that load, then I need only to duplicate the Federal load. My next move was to pull apart a Federal cartridge for a look see. In a Cordite for 4831 exchange it takes 107 grains of IMR 4831 and a little more of the Hogdon, say 109 gr. That pretty much fills up the case. However, low and behold the Federal case was about half full (you can shake it and tell that) and weighed at 87 gr of something. Back at the SCI convention my buddy and I asault the Federal booth and demand that they tell us what powder they are using. No way Jose say they, private and double secret information distributed on a strictly need to know basis. The powder is, they finally said, a proprietary canister powder and a non-available to the public Federal 216 primer.

Only slightly daunted we sought out Craig Boddington, noted gun writer and the guy who must hold the record for trips to Africa, for his opinion knowing that he is an imense fan of the 470NE. We tell him the Federal story and he replies, dead pan, B*** S***! "It's 87 grains of Reloader 15."

The problem is, he further elucidates, that that 216 primer is MUCH hotter than the 215 made available and Federal cannot be cajoled into releasing it for the public. That primer (greater brisance I think the word is) allows them to function with a lot of airspace in the case, even with the powder not covering the primer!

So next it's off to the Kynoch booth where my buddy had bought some nifty foam wads for just this problem. They are simply 1/2" wads cut from black insulation foam, the squishy, spongy stuff, about an inch long. This material expands on insertion to fill the diameter of the case below the neck and totally disintegrates on firing, leaving no residue. I buy a couple of hundred (quite cheap they were) and return home to load and test. In goes 87 gr of RL15 topped by the foam wad which is ever so slightly compressed by the bullet. Take ten of these and out to the range we go. Glory Halleluiah and the Jubilee Come, they print within a two inch circle at 50 hards and the felt recoil is considerably less than a 4831 load of equal velocity. I am not engineer enough to understand why but it deffinitely kicks less with the faster powder.

So, we are pretty certain that, if you have a modern double in 470NE regulated for the Federal Premium Safari ammo, you can duplicate the performance with a Norma case (or recycled Federal nickle plated), 87gr of Reloader 15 topped by a 1" x 1/2" soft foam wad (buy 'em or make 'em), a Federal 215 primer and either a Woodleigh 500gr bullet or the Trophy Bonded 500gr. Pressures appear to be the same as the Federal, they feel the same to shoot and accuracy is like what you paid for! The velocity? Don't know, don't care. Get a double to shoot to the same place as the regulation load and it's so close as to not be of issue.

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atkinson6
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: chrispie]
      #12795 - 30/03/04 11:47 AM

The Federal load is 87 grs of RL-15 with a filler, they used to use ear plugs...2000 FPS on my chronograph.....

Butches 108 grs of 4831 is 2245 FPS..tight barrels and chambers and real accurate in my gun, kicks like a damn mule...Factory ammo is a pussycat by comparison...4350 will also recoil a lot less than 4831..

I will be wringing out my super accurate Searcy this summer before Africa and will report the results..I want a GS customs FN or Bridger FN at 2100 dead on at 50 yards..One thing about the Searcy that has become apparant is that it is not as tricky to bring different loads together as all the English guns I have had..Lots of stuff shoots to the same POI with this gun.

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: atkinson6]
      #12816 - 31/03/04 12:53 AM

Here is what regulates in my searcy .500:

570 Woodleigh solids
570 Woodleigh softs
570 Bridger solid
570 GS custom solid
570 TCCI solid
500 cast lead

I haven't played with the Hawk bullets enough to comment as I though I had enough to work with in the above list. So far I have only shot a bison with the rifle, but it worked great. The bison flopped over, kicked, and died before I could get the bead on him again.

Here is what did not regulate:

570 grain or lead so bullet by Custom Cast
650 grain lead bullet from Saeco mould

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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
      #12827 - 31/03/04 05:59 AM

Ray, very interested in the FN bullets you rave about... I get the physics, but was just curious as to:

a) how you came accross this "fetish"

and

b) what additional costs are there and what are the good & bad of the available pieces...

the Searcy is looking like an interesting investment as well... we're a ways off from a decision though... but intriquing nonetheless.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #12830 - 31/03/04 07:33 AM

Mafia,

The best explanation of the physics of penetration of solids in aqueous media (flesh) is provided by Norbert Hansen. A google search for Norbert Hansen and Superpenetrator will find the article for you in both English and German.

A solid penetrates by creating a gaseous vapor bubble ahead of it in flesh. The bigger the vapor bubble, the less resistance on the bullet from the flesh and the greater the penetration.

A flat nose creates a larger vapor bubble than a round nose and hence penetrates deeper.

A flat nose also cuts a cleaner hole on the entrance and exit, giving a better blood trail.

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475Guy
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #12833 - 31/03/04 08:29 AM

dM, the flatnose solids that Ray is talking about is basically like shooting the semi-cutters in handguns started by Elmer Keith an age ago. It cuts a perfectly round hole through skin and flesh just like a hole-puncher when doing holes for typingpaper. You could probably broaden your ballistics knowledge by getting some of Elmer Keith's books and read up on how he came to the conclusion that a flatnosed bullet is a good killer in game. It just works without too much drama.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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Dark_Helmet
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 475Guy]
      #12835 - 31/03/04 08:55 AM

thanks guys... I've got enough reading to do as it is... will add them to the list!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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500grains
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #12851 - 01/04/04 01:12 AM

Ray, if you load some lead bullets down in the 1200 to 1500 fps range for that .470, you will really enjoy it. Then go rabbit hunting. Or buy some goats from the livestock auction and get in some low-recoil practice. Of course heavy load practice is necessary too, but you can have lots of fun with the light loads, and even shoot deer and elk with them if you are of a mind to.

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atkinson6
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
      #13374 - 12/04/04 01:12 PM

500,
I am working on that, and I have found the Searcy is quit different from the English rifles, it will shoot a lot of different loads to the same POI....Now, thats a second coming type miracle to any double rifle fan, that has playing with English guns for years, wow!. My gun will come to POI with a 500 gr. Woodleigh at 2050 FPS and at 2254 FPS, now I will work on the cast loads you and some others have recommended. This gun is a kick to work with, it makes life simple.

BTW, Butch borrowed my gun and just won the double rifle nationals somewhere in california, reckon I will ever get it back?????..He did it with the 500 gr. Woodliegh at 2245 FPS, I expect Butch to be in about the same condition as Cassias Clay pretty quick....

DasMafia,
for years going back to about 1960 I guess, I cut the noses flat on BarnesX and ITTc bullets, but they didn't feed so I only had one on top..I begged all the makers to make a bullet shaped like the Keith Simi wadcutter and they looked at my like I had lost it....then after many years of struggle I got a few folks attention and got some experimental bullets but not a lot of interrest...Yep, it had become a fettish because I knew it would work, why not? it had already proved itself in the 44 special and 44 magnum pistols... Then I read an article in Man Magnum on GS Customs and bought a bunch of them, and did they ever work, man did they work, I was sold and have been using them ever since even on plainsgame with great results and these babies feed like poop thru a goose..Then Bridger made some and they were great, but he gave up on it, but I got quit a few before John quit making them..

I have been talking to Geoff McDonald of Woodleigh fame and he has a flat nose solid on the burner somewhere down the line it appears...so all should email him and push for such a bullet and it will be of conventional design..Anyway thats how it all came about to answer your question...

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
double rifle nationals [Re: atkinson6]
      #13449 - 13/04/04 11:26 PM

In reply to:

BTW, Butch borrowed my gun and just won the double rifle nationals somewhere in california, reckon I will ever get it back?????..He did it with the 500 gr. Woodliegh at 2245 FPS, I expect Butch to be in about the same condition as Cassias Clay pretty quick....



Do you know if there is any news blurb about the double rifle nationals on the web?

Also, what is your .470 load that gives 2245 fps? Thanks.

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atkinson6
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Re: double rifle nationals [Re: 500grains]
      #13608 - 17/04/04 04:13 AM

500,
It is the regulation load that Butch uses, 108 grs. of IMR-4831, Butch told me it clocked that on his chronograpeh while regulating, and it clocked right at that for me also..But my new load is 85 grs. of RL-15, topped with 5 grs. of Dacron, for 2020 FPS and it sure feels better and prints dead center at 50 yards also...I finally settled on a 500 gr. cast lead bullet with 45 grs. of XMP-5744 and its dead center at 50...All 3 loads are super accurate and normally touch both bullets at 50...

The RL-15 load with GS FN solids will be my Africa load..I had a few Bridgers and they shot good, but thats a done deal I guess...

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: double rifle nationals [Re: atkinson6]
      #13770 - 21/04/04 01:04 PM

Butch called me and told me he did not re-regulate my rifle he just loaded it down...Those Searcy rifles don't seem to need re-regulating, they shoot most loads to the same POI just like a good bolt gun, amazing...

Butch also won that double rifle National shoot with my gun...BTW..

This is great as I now have a number of loads that shoot to the same POI, and the gang here has snatched me into the world of reduced loads, lead bullet and Lord knows what next and I'm bloody loving it...

I can just about shoot anything I load up to center at 50 yards, and I'm having a lot more fun as I learn more about these good guns...and that lead load is just plumb cute!!

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holland465
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Loc: California
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 700nitro]
      #13968 - 26/04/04 05:44 AM

The English guns may be expensive but you will always get you money out of them if and when one decides to sell. The guns manufactured outside of England do not have that luxury.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: holland465]
      #13975 - 26/04/04 10:06 AM

In reply to:

The English guns may be expensive but you will always get you money out of them if and when one decides to sell. The guns manufactured outside of England do not have that luxury.



This is a popular but untrue myth. Some data points:

1. I paid $7K for a Searcy double, and the same rifle today goes for $8500 used.

2. Lots of people who by used English guns have to get them re-worked at a cost of several thousand dollars and do not recoup that cost again.

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mickey
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Re: Butch Searcy's double rifles [Re: 500grains]
      #13978 - 26/04/04 10:55 AM

Where has a used, Field Grade Searcy been sold for US$8500? The new PH Model is a lot better handling rifle than the old clubby ones and they are only $9500.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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