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Birdhunter50
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large game? [Re: fuhrmann]
      #110209 - 22/07/08 11:52 PM

Fuhrmann,
I hunt with a more modern version of the bore rifle, mine is a 20 gauge using the Lyman slugs at 1400 FPS. They do O.K. out to one hundred yards or a bit further. That is as far as Iwant to try and shoot at deer with open sights and is probably a bit more than most people should try to shoot, unless they practice a lot with their guns. These slugs, as I make them, weigh just about 375 grains.


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DarylS
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: fuhrmann]
      #110211 - 23/07/08 12:02 AM

Fuhrmann - thank you very much for posting the notes from Zimmer's book. I don't know where I've heard of him, but his name is familiar to me.
: Some of the ideas are great, others, of course are in error, as normal. Even Forsyth was 'out to lunch' on a few of his statements, but not many.
: Zimmer's 'faster twists for ball' was a common error of the mid 1800's period. We know the longer the projectile, the faster the twist is required, not as he's mentioned. Many English makers also made the same error, much to the chagrine of Forsyth. One of his doubles, a 13 bore, stripped with anything over 1 1/2 drams of powder, and had a trajectory of 13" for 100 yards - useless for hunting, and with it's tiny powder charge, wounded more game than it killed. He states in the English and Scottish highlands, hounds are jused to bring to bay, wounded Stags, so none were lost, therefore, to wound is to kill. Such nonsense will get a man killed when hunting game that bites.
: Your rifle is lovely indeed. I'm guessinf the 'breech' shows a "Delvingne" breech, common in military rifles of the 1840 to 1850 period in Europe. This 'guess' on my part is due to the low powder charges Zimmer notes for that area of the world, and the rifling twists. The Delvingne system was used with, then replaced part way through by some makers with the "Tige" system that had an internal projection in the middle of the bore at the breech. Later, but not much, the minnie system came into use, which had hollowed projectiles with clay, box-wood, wax or steel plugs in the base which casued expansion upon ignition of the powder. It was the American's who changed this 'plugged' bullet 'minnie' to a thinner skirted 'minnie' bullet wihtout the plug, which also relied upon ignition to expand. In your breech, the powder charge was dropped in to level with the 'step'. An undersided elongated bullet was pushed down with the rod to the 'step' of the plug, then rammed a few times with the steel rod to upset the slug into the rifling. The rifle was capped and fired. The only real negative in this system, was the very small powder charge which gave a terrible point blank range as did all military 'rifles' of the period. The number of strokes to 'slug' up the bullet had to be precise in number and strength, to ensure accuracy. Too, as the powder chamber fouled, it would hold less powder, but when the same charge as before was used, the powder would rise above the 'shelf' and prevent the slug from contacting the metal, resulting in badly compressed powder cahrges as the rammer was pounded down, which in turn effected the burning rate of the powder and also prevent the slug from expanding properly into the rifling. As European military and military-type muzzleloading rifles using small powder charges make poor hunting rifles due to their looping trajectories, por accuracy and lousey killing/stopping power, it's easy to see why modern governments there, restrict them from hunting.(my own opinion given the information I have at hand)
: High sights will give the illusion of a flatter trajectory, but any descent range zero of zero (90 to 110 yards) makes for very high shooting at close range, as in missing a charging animals vitals due to high hitting. The high trajectories, of coruse, being caused by small powder charges which are demaned due to too-fast twists - a viscious circle. The faster the twist, the deeper the grooves have to be to hold the bullet. The deeper the grooves, the more upsetage of the bullet causing innacuracy, so the faster the twist has to be to give accuracy. The faster the twist, the deepr the grooves have to be and you end up with grooves .0276" deep in a rifle designed to shoot a short slug. Unfortunately, your rifle, beazutiful as it is, was caught by this viscious circle. The system of loading you are using is probably the best for it. I would be trying an American-type picket bullet with cloth patch. It was usually tapered on the front with a rounded base and sides to allow the patch to fold around it easily - sort of a water-droplet shape, with a small flat nose.
: Another error of Zimmer's, is his - faster twist for the shorter barrels. For a hunting rifle of bore size, Forsyth's recommendation is a 1/4 turn in the length of the barrels (double) usually 24" to 26" long. We know this will give reasonable hunting accuracy with good heavy hunting loads, and there is no charge you could shoot from your shoulder that will cause innacuracy. The heavier the charge, the more accurately it shoots. Today, we feel that 80 to 85" is about perfect for round ball hunting guns from .55 to .75 cal. Rifling depths of .010" to as shallow as .006" is all that's needed. The deeper rifling is for the higher velocity, small calibres of .50 to .60. Larger calibres can use shallower rifling, due to their lower velocities. Indeed, .004" may be all that's required for a 14 to 10 bore as ball speeds do not achieve more than 1,550fps muzzle velocity.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: fuhrmann]
      #110232 - 23/07/08 02:52 AM

Fuhrmann-

You have a very beautiful hunting rifle!
I would love to hunt with it.

Have you ever had your barrel off the breech plug?
If so have you ever 'slugged' it by pushing an over size lead ball through the bore to determine if the bore is tapered or has any bulges in it's length?
I ask this because of your comment on the breech plug 'chamber' issue.
In a conversation with a gun builder who makes very high quality muzzle loading rifles, he told me of an old antique European muzzle loading rifle that he found to have a special feature.
The chamber area was slightly larger in diameter than the rest of the bore -- and it did not appear that the chamber area was bigger because of an accidental overload or bore obstruction in the past.
As I recall the story, he did not discover this until he had the breech plug off for cleaning.
He noted that the 'fat chamber' appeared to have been made that way intentionally.
He found that when loaded properly, that rifle was amazingly accurate.
When loaded with enough powder and a patched ball, so that the ball was 'just behind' the 'step' in bore diameter - so that when touched off the patched round ball 'jumped' to the step (only a little bit) he thinks that the ball most perfectly obturates, 'bumping up' to perfectly fit the bore and grooves creating the best possible gas seal and consistent ignition and interior ballistics.

It would be interesting to hear if your rifle has a feature like this.


BirdHunter-

Daryl and Steve Sihn both are great contributors to this community with their deep working knowledge of the muzzle loading rifle, it's build and design, and it's effect in the field on large game.
I often feel quite fortunate to have their company here on the site.
I'd really like to get out to visit both of them for hunts some time in the future!

On your SxS 20b 'slug rifle', I would like to see a photograph of the projectiles you are casting for it.
Did you design/make your own mould?
Also, on it's effective range of ~100 yards, that is the range that I very much prefer to work within as I most enjoy the hunts that get me into the life of the game, and up close to the animal. Stalking in thick woods is the best, but it can also be quite challenging.
Your 20b SxS sounds like a great woods hunting rifle.

Daryl-

On twist and roundball I so completely understand the slow twist for roundball concept.
I have requested the build of a high grade .62 rifle with long, slow twist for roundball and stiff charges of black powder for great accuracy at the high velocity you speak of.
I have requested this rifle in Flint ignition too -- just to ensure it's reliability!



Something to mention though, about a rifle that I took in trade, that I had intended to give away to my father-in-law.
The rifle is a 24" Lyman Stainless Deerstalker in .54 caliber. It was in never-fired as-new condition.
As you're already thinking to yourself, the stainless model is only offered in 1/32" twist.
While working loads up for that rifle, I discovered that with very tightly patched roundball it was it's most accurate with a very hot charge of FFg. As I recall the most accurate load was between 110 and 115 grains.
I also found that the FFFg performance at this charge was similarly accurate, but the patches were looking a bit 'worked'
Both the FFg and the FFFg loads have been consistently the most accurate with this rifle, and I've chosen to stick with FFg at 110gr as it's swift and flat.

The strange thing is that this rifle with the fast 1/32" twist performs best with roundball over the hotter loads, note that the patch material is thick (I think .024" denim) and I'm using a Murphy/Castor patch lube.
I have not attempted to run anything but patched round ball through that rifle.
Strange, no?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: tinker]
      #110233 - 23/07/08 03:56 AM

remember a german jaegerrifle on the british militaria forum - Bore 0.527 Grooves 0.547 - with a tige breech.I asking freddo, the owner of this nice rifle again about the powder load:
"I never did determine the exact amount of powder to use.
I put in 60 grains swiss 2f This seems to cover the tige,I am using a Wilkinson/Lorenze type bullet so I do not need to ram the bullet down on to the Tige to expand it.
I think the right amount of powder to put in would be about 55 grains.
Best Regards"













Fuhrmanns rifle hold only 40 grain's but this rifle with 55 grains isn't any better.fortunately we have such examples where its possible to determine the powder load.I will say that this was the rule in continental europe between 1850 and 1870. the german-french war from 1870/71 have bringing a great attention for ballistic questions. superiority from the 11mm chassepot rifle with 86 grain's powder over the 15mm dreyse rifle with 73 grain's was to clear. I believe it was the turning point when everyone starts to think about this problem.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: lancaster]
      #110234 - 23/07/08 04:06 AM

http://www.choosebooks.com/basicSearch.d...0&anyWords=

zimmers book is there

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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fuhrmann
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: lancaster]
      #110243 - 23/07/08 08:14 AM

About my experiences shooting the rifle shown above:
after those first silly trials I did some reading, and learnt how to load a patched ball during a stay in the US.
About 15 years ago, I found a muzzleloading club in Switzerland. Some of these guys were really good, I remember at least 2 that won a European championship in a 50 m offhand competition. Preferred rifles were original Swiss target rifles, or similar replicas.
Starting with about 65 to 70 grains of Swiss No.2, I had cut and frayed patches. I gradually stepped back with powder to the volume of the mentioned powder chamber, ca. 40 grains of No.2 (3Fg), and settled on ca. 5 mm overpowder felt wad, a round ball from an RCBS .520 mold and a .015 patch. Patches were OK then, no blow-by visible. I never shoot a group over a bench at this club - they did not use any shooting benches, all shooting done offhand! But when I did my part, the shots sat were I had released them.
After a long pause spent with other things (job, family, hunting, modern rifles, clay shooting) I started shooting the rifle last year again, inspired by Zimmer's book.
First step in a very hasty test was to check velocity with the maximal load suggested by Zimmer:

.520 round ball, 200 grains with 53 grains Swiss No. 2 (3Fg): 445 and 453 m/s, mean 449 m/s or 1473 fps
.520 round ball, 200 grains with 53 grains Swiss No. 3 (2Fg): 412 and 381 m/s, mean 396 m/s or 1300 fps
.520 FN bullet from a Rapine mold, 307 grains with 53 grains Swiss No. 3 (2Fg): 377 and 361 m/s, mean 369 m/s or 1210 fps

So velocity was not quite as low as expected, and patches looked reasonable. I was not able to observe bullet placement, but all the different loads fired formed a diagonal string pattern (range was only 25 m, though).

So I think there is hope. Next steps will be to shoot formal 50 m groups, play with different patch thickness and powder loads.

This will never be a big game rifle, but good enough for our small roe deer (around 40 pounds, field-dressed).

Fuhrmann


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DarylS
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: fuhrmann]
      #110293 - 24/07/08 12:00 AM

The light charges might work just fine in that fast twist with round balls. I'd be more inclined to make a mould for a flat nosed, 'picket' bullet of about 350gr. weight for the rifle - patched in lubricated linen or denim, and not load to the 'chamer's' size. IE: I'd load it with 75 to 90gr. 2F and turn it into a real hunting rifle. I'd also prefer these charges for any big game.

I know a pistol will handle game with round ball, especially in a .50 to .54 cal. using 40 to 60gr. of powder. I just prefer a bit more. A 200gr. bullet or ball doing 1,473fps will produce about the same power as a .44 mag. does, so there really isn't any reason not to use it at under 100 yards on deer, etc. A .54 ball will completely penetrate a moose, side to side if making 1,000fps. That I now for a fact - I just prefer more.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: tinker]
      #110363 - 24/07/08 10:44 PM

Tinker,
The loads I use in the 20 gauge are made up of Lyamn hourglass shaped, hollow based slugs weighing about 375 grains. They were not intended to weigh this heavy but I modified them. I push them out at around 1400 FPS, which is not really fast, but I make them out of pure soft lead. They are loaded and protected by AA shot wads and a material that fills the hollow bases. That keeps the wads from being blown up into the hollow baes and adds more weight to them.
Like muzzleloading bullets made of soft lead, they impart most , if not all, their energy to the animal. The slug and the bore of the gun are both protected by the shotwad. It works just like any other sabot load because the wad imparts the spin to the slug. My barrels are twisted 1 in 20 or 22. With that much rotation, they are very well stabilised and the rotation adds to the killing power, I think. Many people forget that even as a bullet slows down it's forward speed, it retains most of it's rotational movement till it hits something solid. Also, because the wad is catching the rifling, the bullets are not deformed in the loading process.
I am enclosing a picture that shows an unfired slug next to one that passed through four one gallon jugs of water and wrecked the fifth one. It was found on the ground next to the table that held the water jugs. Bob H.



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DarylS
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #110364 - 24/07/08 10:57 PM

Bob - a friend from Alberta send me a package with a bunch of the 12 bore Lyman Sabot's slugs along with some WW red 'field' wads. The slugs fit the wads perfectly. The ones sent are cast from WW metal and weigh an average of 506gr. They are 14 bore in size which is .686" approx - slightly smaller than a 12 bore full choke muzzle's.690",ie: still a good size. Expansion isn't needed due to their diameter.

Since I don't have a rifled 12 bore barrel, their hollow base is required to help keep the nose forward. The 20 bore slug pictured looks a bit longer than the 12 bore, ratio-wise, diameter to length.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: DarylS]
      #110365 - 24/07/08 11:02 PM

Daryl S,
Do you think that a 300 grain hollowpoint 45/70 doing 1400 to 1500 FPS is a stiff enough load for Moose ? I have a rifle already made up and regulated with this load. I was going to use it on Moose in Alaska with a friend up there as a guide. He mouth calls them in during the rut and tells me that he can get one in to about 75 yards or so for a shot. Will this work in your oppinion?
Bob H.


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #110373 - 25/07/08 06:51 AM

BH50-

That slug for the 20b looks pretty worked out from that water jug incident. Have you put one of those through an animal yet?
I'd be concerned about penetration with something that went pancake like that on water jugs.

Same goes with hollow-points on thick game, I feel much more comfortable with something that'll hold together and get through there than go with a hollow point in a .458 bore rifle.
I use cheap hollow points in my .458 bolt rifle for kicking pine cones around at the ranch, but I wouldn't go hunting anything bigger than deer with them. In .458 I stick with a SNRN or flat point design for hunting.


Have you ever cast those sabot slugs in harder alloy and put them through your waterjug test?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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fuhrmann
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: DarylS]
      #110394 - 25/07/08 04:21 PM

Quote:

The light charges might work just fine in that fast twist with round balls. I'd be more inclined to make a mould for a flat nosed, 'picket' bullet of about 350gr. weight for the rifle - patched in lubricated linen or denim, and not load to the 'chamer's' size. IE: I'd load it with 75 to 90gr. 2F and turn it into a real hunting rifle. I'd also prefer these charges for any big game.

I know a pistol will handle game with round ball, especially in a .50 to .54 cal. using 40 to 60gr. of powder. I just prefer a bit more. A 200gr. bullet or ball doing 1,473fps will produce about the same power as a .44 mag. does, so there really isn't any reason not to use it at under 100 yards on deer, etc. A .54 ball will completely penetrate a moose, side to side if making 1,000fps. That I now for a fact - I just prefer more.




Daryl,

thanks for all the good advice.
Hunting with a muzzleloader is a tricky issue here in Europe. Muzzleloaders are in general not used, sometimes actually outlawed, and most hunters disregard them as inefficient, hence "unethical". All I may be able to arrange is a roe deer hunt. There a round ball will be enough.

Fuhrmann


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: DarylS]
      #110401 - 25/07/08 09:11 PM

Dayrl,
These 20 gauge slugs are longer in proportion to the 12 gauge slugs, that may account for their good performance with the fast rifling. As you mentioned, close sizing is plenty good enough because the hollow base will upset to fill the bore. Bob


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: tinker]
      #110404 - 25/07/08 09:27 PM

Tinker,
Yes, I have used them on deer and they worked extremely well. I never recovered a fired slug to examine though, they have always excited the animal. To answer your next question, No, I have not tried any harder alloy in these slugs because I didn't see any need to do so. Even though we think of water as being 'Soft', it causes bullets to flatten just about like they would if they had hit a block wall. That is why the slug looks so stressed. Deer chests are much "softer" on soft lead bullets than jugs of water, hard as that may be to believe.
Also, I make them soft because I want to, they seem to work well and a slug that dumps most, if not all, of it's energy into the animal seems to kill much quicker. I agree with what was said about soft muzzleloading bullets killing well, even though they were radically slowed down from their enitial muzzle velocity. That is the energy dumping soft lead bullet of decent weight, still doing its job well. This 20 gauge double gun is used to hunt just like I used to hunt with the muzzleloader, get close, and put the slug where it will do the best job. No problems so far.
Bob


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: fuhrmann]
      #110405 - 25/07/08 10:11 PM

Fuhrmann,
I'm sorry if it seems that we have highjacked your post and got to talking a little off the subject, but this is good and interesting stuff! Thanks for starting it. Feel free to reclaim your post anytime. Bob


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #110414 - 26/07/08 01:27 AM

BH50-

Thanks for sharing your experience with that little lyman slug on deer. I appreciate the comments.

I don't think this is much of a step off the original topic, as at some time someone will find this thread in a web search, open the nitroexpress site, and see the wide range of experience the members here have with different kinds of guns and rifles which are so elementally similar.
That person might even be fiddling with that 20 gauge lyman mould thinking of setting up to run those little gems in their old small size bore rifle! There are a a few more of these old special time capsules out there waiting to be found, tuned up, and taken to the field - their owners without the original mould or quite the idea of what to do about projectiles
I know I've done such searches.
That's how I found this place nearly three years ago.
This kind of pleasant latitude in conversation brings the knowledge into the meeting place - and I very much appreciate your nudge to get us back on focus to the old bore rifles the original poster was asking about.

Also to note, I'm quite happy for you that the rifle you made for yourself has been a successful tool in the field. That same random person searching the web *might/might not* have the confidence to get out there and hunt with it.
Perhaps this cross-functional yet very similar experience will be enough for them to get out there and work that rifle and their skills up to the point where they'll be competent and comfortable enough to go hunt with it.
That's a victory in my books!

Couple more questions for you on that deer kill.
Do you have an estimate of the impact velocity?
Did you find parts of the slug in the animal?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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fuhrmann
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #110424 - 26/07/08 02:38 AM

Quote:

Fuhrmann,
I'm sorry if it seems that we have highjacked your post and got to talking a little off the subject, but this is good and interesting stuff! Thanks for starting it. Feel free to reclaim your post anytime. Bob




Birdhunter,

no problem - feel free to continue highjacking!
This is all very interesting.

Fuhrmann


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DarylS
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: fuhrmann]
      #110451 - 26/07/08 11:26 AM

I found pure lead in RB's just fine for moose. In a muzzleoading rifle shot with a cloth patch around the ball, pure lead is necessary for offer a good fit and tight seal.

I do not believe in having to wipe the bore between shots. THAT I find to be unethical, due to sometimes needing a fast second shot.

In the bore-side barrels, actually from about .54" upwards, a paper ctg. with round ball included seems to work just fine. Too, a slow twist, here I speak of a 80" or slower twist with shallow, .005" top .008" deep rifling will allow a WW ball to be patched effectively in cloth. The faster twists require a tight fit to ensure no gas escapement. My .69 cal English-styled rifle with 66" twist would not allow more than 82gr. of 3F or 95gr. of 2F to be shot with WW balls due to gas cutting of the patch, fouling and subsequent innacuracy. I couldn't use a heaveir patch due to the hardness of the balls - catch-22. For some reason, 2 wraps of .003" paper (.006" per side- total .012" and .685" ball) gave superb accuracy with WW balls in the rifle's .690 bore with 66" twist (.012" rifling). I assume the wadded up paper protected the ball and paper patch from being burnt through. Not once did the paper catch fire, onmly confette reigned, yet I shot these with 165gr. 2F. They delivered the same velocity as patched pure lead balls encased in .022" denim with the same 165gr. charge. Accuracy was 1-1/2" or better for 5 at 100 yards.
; More experimentation needs to be done in the .54 thourgh 62's with paper patching (as in military paper ctgs. the world over).
We use WW balls not for increased pepetraion, but for cost effectviness. Ww's are cheap comparred to pure lead.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: tinker]
      #110468 - 26/07/08 07:22 PM

Tinker,
Any speed indication that I would give you would be a pure guess on my part. I usually load these to about 1400 or so and because they are fairly aerodinamic for the short distance that I usually shoot them, I don't think they have shed too much of their speed, but I have no way to tell for sure. I have never had any of these fragment on our whitetails around here and have never found any lead slivers or anything like that in the deer carcases we cleaned. Because I have a bad leg, and because I don't get to still hunt as much as I used to like to do, most of my deer kills are made sitting next to a deer trail, out maybe 30 yards or so. Almost all shots are broadside, behind the shoulder. I have dropped several deer using a high shoulder shot, but never with this slug.
I am fairly sure they don't flatten as much as the one I showed that had gone through all the water jugs, and I would also guess from past recovered muzzleloader round balls, that they must surely hold together pretty well. The only slugs that I have seen that were greatly deformed were the ones that hit the spine or the shoulder joint. Even though they get twisted up some, most of them retained most of their original bullet weight. I am also fairly sure that the larger round balls that I used,(54,58,and 62 caliber), held together better than the 45 round balls do. It must have to do with the greater weight and mass. I used a .45 flintlock for years but have put it away. I now feel that it is really too small to be used on deer. It will kill them, but not in a fast, humane way. In our neighboring state of Missouri, they will let hunters use a .40 caliber round ball on deer. Both states should raise it up to .50 caliber, minimum, in my opinion. The 50 just kills so much better and in case of a bad shot, it at least leaves you a decent blood trail to follow. Bob


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fuhrmann
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #110470 - 26/07/08 08:46 PM

Here is one more account about hunting in the old times, found in an 1908 issue of "Das Schiesswesen":

Geschosswirkung einst und jetzt

Kiessling
Das Schiesswesen, Band 10, Nr. 7, S.57-60, 23.7.1908

.......Die alte Jägerregel lautete, ein Stück Wild nur in normaler Stellung zu beschiessen ...... Der Schütze hatte die Pflicht, so lange mit der Abgabe des Schusses zu warten, bis das Stück normal stand, d.h. bis es dem Schützen die Breitseite zugewandt hatte und den Kopf ganz erhoben oder wenigstens in Höhe der Rückenlinie trug. In dieser Stellung bot das Wild dem Schusse die edlen Organe als Angriffsfläche dar, und Ein- sowie Ausschuss konnten bei den Fluchten des durchschossenen Wildes nicht oder doch nur unvollkommen verdeckt werden. Man beabsichtigte und erreichte auf diese Art eine deutliche, reichliche Schweissfährte. Um diese Schweissfährte drehte sich dazumal alles, sie war das Alpha und Omega des ganzen Schiessens auf Wild.
Der Jäger erwartete gar nicht, dass das Stück im Feuer zusammenbrach, ja, er wünschte es nicht einmal, denn erfahrungsgemäss waren Schüsse, welche in dieser Art wirkten, fast durchweg faule Schüsse. Das Wild war meistens gekrellt; es brach zwar im Feuer zusammen, aber nur, um nach kurzer Zeit wieder hoch zu werden und nach einigen taumelnden Fluchten in rasender Fahrt auf Nimmerwiedersehen abzugehen. Die Situation des Schützen war in solchen Fällen keineswegs angenehm. Die Kürze der Zeit erlaubte das umständliche Wiederladen der meistens einläufigen Vorderlader-Birschbüchse nicht, und so musste dann der Hirschfänger aushelfen, - wenn der Jäger noch zeitig genug beim Stück anzulangen imstande war.
Mit allem Nachdruck wurde daher dem Schützen die Vorsicht eingeprägt, unverzüglich nach dem Schuss das zusammengebrochene Stück im Galopp anzulaufen und, ohne erst lange nach dem Sitz der Kugel zu forschen, ihm zunächst einmal den Fang zu geben. Liess sich dieses in der üblichen, gerechten Weise nicht mehr ermöglichen, weil der Hirsch schon wieder hoch geworden war und trotz der noch vorhandenen Schwäche den auf ihn eindringenden Schützen abschlug, so war es sogar gestattet, die Hessen, die starken Sehnen der Hinterläufe, zu durchschlagen, um den Geweihten zunächst wenigstens an den Platz zu bannen! – Man fürchtete also diese Krellschüsse mit gutem Grunde, und merkte der Jäger wirklich einmal, dass seine Eile umsonst war, weil kein Krellschuss vorlag, so hatte er trotzdem keinen Grund, zu triumphieren. Der Hirsch war denn eben durch irgendeine Stelle der Wirbelsäule, vielleicht sogar durch das Haupt geschossen, oder die Kugel hatte ihm beide Vorderläufe dicht unter dem Körper gebrochen .........
Programmmässig war es also, dass das Wild im Knall nicht zusammenbrach, sondern in rasenden, wenn auch augenscheinlich kranken Fluchten abging. Dann hatte schon der Kugelschlag dem Ohre des Jägers die erste frohe Botschaft vermittelt, und man konnte so recht con amore seine Büchse „auf den Brand“ laden, um dann den Anschuss zu prüfen und je nach dem Befunde die Dispositionen für die Nachsuche zu treffen. Von der Regel, das Wild zum Schusse erst breit treten zu lassen, ging der gesetzte Jäger niemals ab, denn er wusste, wenn auch vielleicht nicht in wissenschaftlicher Form, dass die statische und dynamische Arbeitsleistung seiner Büchse nur unter diesen Umständen genügte, um den Erfolg nach menschlichem Ermessen zu garantieren.
Schrägschüsse liessen entweder die nötige Tiefenwirkung vermissen, oder aber sie waren doch wenigstens nicht derart, dass sie eine starke Zerstörung der edlen Teile und damit ein baldiges verenden herbeigeführt hätten. Das derartig getroffene Wild lebte noch stunden-, ja tagelang, liess sich vom Schweisshund bis in die Pechhütte hetzen und fiel schliesslich wohl gar irgendwo in einem stillen Winkel zu Holze, weil der mangelnde Schweiss dem Hunde das Halten der Fährte unmöglich machte. Dieser Fall trat sogar verhältnismässig oft ein, denn jene Büchsen ergaben bei Schrägschüssen geringe Tiefenwirkung, und die Decke resp. Das Feist verhinderte den Schweissaustritt aus dem Einschusse. Das waren also durchaus triftige Gründe, welche den Breitschuss unbedingt rechtfertigten und als allein ratsam erscheinen liessen.
Lungenspitzen- und Leberschuss, das liess man sich noch gefallen, wiewohl namentlich bei der letztgenannten Verwundung das Wild oft noch stundenlang lebte und nur schwer steif wurde. Den reinen Weidwundschuss jedoch schätzen unsere Vorfahren wenig, es sei denn, dass sie sich an den Leistungen routinierter Hunde erfreuen wollten. Aber auch schon damals arbeitete nicht jeder Hund, vor allen Dingen die jungen nicht, in der musterhaften Weise, wie sie uns in Wort und bild so überschwänglich geschildert worden ist. Den Weidwundschuss, welcher gar nicht selten Misserfolge zeitigte, fürchtete man und befolgte daher die Regel, die Kugel vorne anzutragen.
........
Tatsache ist, dass man mit unseren (modernen) Geschossen das Wild ganz barbarisch zurichten kann, und diese Wirkung wird so ziemlich stets eintreten, wenn starke Knochen in Verbindung mit umfangreichen Muskelpartien gefasst werden. .......
Und so dreht sich denn auch hier, wie sonst überall, das Weltgetriebe im Kreise: wir bevorzugen gleichfalls den Schuss auf das breitstehende Wild, wenn auch aus entgegengesetzten Gründen wie unsere Vorfahren. Sie beabsichtigten, eine möglichst starke Zerstörung des Wildkörpers herbeizuführen, wir suchen ihn möglichst zu schonen.
.......


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fuhrmann
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: fuhrmann]
      #110471 - 26/07/08 09:29 PM

A shortened, quick-and-dirty translation:

Bullet effects then and now

Kiessling
Das Schiesswesen, Band 10, Nr. 7, S.57-60, 23.7.1908

The old hunters rule was to shoot only at game standing broadside, with the head held high.
In this position the animal offered the vital organs, entrance and exit wound would not be covered by the hide. One intended and got a clear and ample blood trail. The blood trail was the alpha and omega of all shooting.

The hunter did not expect the game to collapse immediately, indeed he did not wish this because such shots usually were foul. Most often, only the extension of a vertebra was hit, the game collapsed immediately, but got up again soon, to vanish in racing flight after some tumbling leaps. In such cases, the position of the hunter was not pleasant. Reloading the muzzleloader took too much time, so the hunting sword had to help – if the hunter was able to reach the animal in time.
Hunters were strictly advised to race to the game immediately and use the sword, without any searching were the bullet sat. If the stag was up again and fought off the hunter, then it was allowed to cut the tendons of the hind legs. – So such shots hitting an extension of a vertebra were dreaded for good reason; and if sometimes the hurry was in vain, then still there was no reason for triumph. The stag had been hit in the spine, maybe even in the head, or both front legs were broken.
So it was expected that the game did not fall with the shot, but went off in racing, but evidently sick flights. Then the bullet strike had already told its glad message, and the hunter could lovingly reload his rifle, to then examine the tracks and to plan the search. The experienced hunter never departed from the rule to shoot only broadside animals, for he knew that only then the energy of the rifle was sufficient to guarantee success.
Diagonal shots lacked in penetration, or they would at least not cause massive destruction of vital organs and quick death. Game that was hit in such way was living on for hours, even days, was chased around for hours by the dog, and finally it was lost somewhere, because the dog could not hold the track, due to lack of a blood trail. Such cases happened quite often .....
Hitting the lung tips ort he liver was quite acceptable, even if the game was still alive for hours. The pure gut our ancestors did not like – except they wanted to see an experienced dog at work. But even back then not every dog, especially not a young dog was working in an exemplary manner.
.......
It is a fact that with our (modern) bullets game can be barbarically destructed, and this will almost always happen when strong bones in combination with thick muscles are hit......And so, as always, the world is turning a circle: we also prefer broadside shots, but with the opposite reason: our ancestors tried to cause as much destruction as possible, we want to minimise it.
......


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9.3x57
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: tinker]
      #110477 - 26/07/08 11:25 PM

Quote:

I'd be concerned about penetration with something that went pancake like that on water jugs.

Same goes with hollow-points on thick game, I feel much more comfortable with something that'll hold together and get through there than go with a hollow point in a .458 bore rifle.
I use cheap hollow points in my .458 bolt rifle for kicking pine cones around at the ranch, but I wouldn't go hunting anything bigger than deer with them. In .458 I stick with a SNRN or flat point design for hunting.--Tinker




First, very fascinating post. Thanks to all and Daryl who pointed it out to me.

Tinker, what HP have you had bad experience with?

Reason I ask, is that "some HP's are more equal than others..."

The old Lyman Gould bullet had a bad reputation for fragmentation, it having a deep and wide HP, but the Lee c.400 grain HP I have found to be the best .45-70 bullet made for my purposes. It weighs 402 grains when cast in Wheelweights, and has a length to depth of HP that makes for excellent expansion + a large heavy shaft that continues to penetrate {like a big 400 grain Nosler Partition}. In my testing on my Boards and Jugs, it equals premium .375 H&H bullets.

I have killed a number of whitetail deer, a bear and two large range cattle with this bullet, fired at 1640 fps from my Marlin. One of those cows was injured by a car, and went berserk, charging me after running off the rancher and the Sheriff's Deputy. My shot took the critter 2 inches below a line drawn between its eyes as its head was pointed right at me, and that bullet was later found embedded in the upper shoulder, for a full 24 inches of penetration, almost all of it thru neck vertebrae.

I have always wondered why a long HP couldn't be designed just like a Minnie, with a plug in the base along with a hollow point. Such a bullet could be undersize for fast loading. It would be, in muzzleloading terms, a long bullet, and I suspect it would need a quicker-than standard twist. But it would be a real killer.

For years I have experimented with hollow pointing various bullets, and have found that HP's can almost always be tailored for the exact range of expansion and penetration desired, especially if one starts out with a "hard" bullet to begin with. Just taking what we are given from the factory may results in dissatisfaction. Thus my constant use of the Boards and Jugs.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: 9.3x57]
      #110483 - 27/07/08 12:23 AM

Thanks for joining this discussion, Rod.

Fuhrmann - the translaton shows exactly what the found happened with light charges. Broadside shots only could be relyed upon. My buddy Keith, with a .75 Egnoish gun made by my bro, started shootng moose with .735" balls, just over 600gr. weight, using 250gr. 2F. Each year, he'd drop his powder charge 20 grs. It wasn't until he got down to 120gr. that he could reliably retrieve a ball from a moose. Angle didn't matter to the heavier charges, the all exited. The only shots he had with heavy charges that didn't exit, were head-on high neck shots that hit the bottom curve of the spine. These filled the lung cavity with bone shards and the balls ended up in the guts after making 2" holes though the spine. From most other postions, even 150gr. of 2f made exit wounds. BTW - a .375 mag with factory normal jacketed bullets will not normally exit a moose, broaside, let alone from quartering or lengthwise angles. His big fat round ball did. The moose's hide is considerably heavier, thicker and springier than a Stag's. I've shot only one Elk (Wapiti) with the .69, and that ball exited after breaking the off shoulder, while I never got an exit on a moose - bone and that elastic 3/8" thick hide always seemed to stop them.

One must use enough powder and ball size to do the job in a manner that pleases. Get a 16 bore to 10 bore and Be Happy.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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fuhrmann
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: DarylS]
      #110593 - 28/07/08 04:12 PM

Thanks Daryl,

so those old reports and your observations all fit together.
For hunting large game, I certainly would use a rifle as you suggested.
Steve's new 16 gauge rifle would be tempting.
But I would not know were to hunt with it in Europe.

Fuhrmann


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Who hunts with early bore rifles - experience on large g [Re: 9.3x57]
      #110625 - 29/07/08 02:46 AM

9.3-


I see your point on hollowpoints.
I haven't had trouble with them on big game, because I have always just stayed away from them.
I'll admit that my experiences with hollow points on varmint and what I've learned from extensive LE action reports on hollowpoint performance on men has left me with the sense to stick with at least SNRN for game that I'll be eating.

I've looked at the BarnesX, but haven't shot anything I'd be eating with it yet, wont likely either as it appears that bullet will end up ruining a lot of meat with it's 'toto rooter' effect. Wound channels appear to be huge with those bullets.

My father always cast hard bullets for his 06 and hunted with it a bit, but did most of his hunting up close with a .45 auto rim, I think he was running a flat point bullet in that revolver.


Hope that answers...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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