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another very old german double rifle for 20 ga round balls with 33 mm long cases. here with lathe turned brass

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What great stuff. I have a couple of capes, one of which is a swede Husqvarna in the 16ga x 12.7x44R. (.50). I am still working on the combo of loads for this and my german cape. These posts give me some great insights on what can be developed. Thanks for a most interesting and informative post and thread.

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called here spitzer bullet for hunting rifles its in fact a round nose lead bullet, the so nick named "cats head bullet" for such bore guns.

will translate: "very recommand for paradox rifle's, also for such gun's with straigth rifling. (?????)
to use in smooth bore's(?????), not in choked bore barrel's.
when make an order saying if its for paper or brass cases"

not clear what this old catalog is meaning with straigth rifling and smooth bore and such a common round nose bullet, maybe it works at 25 meter.

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called here spitzer bullet for hunting rifles its in fact a round nose lead bullet, the so nick named "cats head bullet" for such bore guns.

will translate: "very recommand for paradox rifle's, also for such gun's with straigth rifling. (?????)
to use in smooth bore's(?????), not in choked bore barrel's.
when make an order saying if its for paper or brass cases"

not clear what this old catalog is meaning with straigth rifling and smooth bore and such a common round nose bullet, maybe it works at 25 meter.

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I see the same illustration and text in a 1910 Burgsmüller catalog.
Your translation from german is correct.
This bullet may have been intended for rifled barrels (gauge or Lancaster cartridges) but could also be used in smoothbore shotgun barrels. Paradox rifling was OK, but no choked muzzles.
Straight rifling is sometimes seen in muzzleloaders: I do not know the real purpose for this, one speculation is to ease loading of fouled barrels. I have an article somewhere about Husqvarna breech action cape guns - the shotgun barrel was also available with straight rifling.

About ballistics of gauge or Lancaster cartridges: muzzle velocity must have been around 300 m/s. In a book from 1877 (Zimmer, Die Jagd-Feuergewehre) it is recommended to sight in rifles at the distance of 60 meters, regardless if muzzleloader or breech action.

Fuhrmann

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yes, its my understanding that every other bullet design than a roundball fired without a spin will keyholing when it leave the barrel. straigth rifling will not change this,it's physics, the only thing straigth rifling will do is to give higher pressure. smooth barrels give lower pressure with slug's than with shotloads.
maybe there was some kind of "magic" thinking about straight rifling around in this days. a point most time's overlocked. and dont forget that not everything is rigth because it's to find in period books. they have making the same kind's of error's like we do.
muzzle velocity's and energy's are the same the guy's were knowing from the muzzle loader before. that make them surprise about the flat shoting 11 mm /.45 cartridges that come in use after 1870.
nobody have ever dream of such ballistic before.

will be continued

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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yes, its my understanding that every other bullet design than a roundball fired without a spin will keyholing when it leave the barrel. straigth rifling will not change this,it's physics, the only thing straigth rifling will do is to give higher pressure. smooth barrels give lower pressure with slug's than with shotloads.
maybe there was some kind of "magic" thinking about straight rifling around in this days. a point most time's overlocked. and dont forget that not everything is rigth because it's to find in period books. they have making the same kind's of error's like we do.
muzzle velocity's and energy's are the same the guy's were knowing from the muzzle loader before. that make them surprise about the flat shoting 11 mm /.45 cartridges that come in use after 1870.
nobody have ever dream of such ballistic before.

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fuhrmann, this text is a key for the understanderstanding of the change that happens in the years between 1870 und 1900. hunting wasn't the same und you will find that shoting game with muzzle loader in this time was very different from hunting we know it today. who has the time to make a classic translation for the international audience now?

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Lancaster, when you use the sauvestre french slugs do you use them in a smoothbore or a rifled barrel. Do they work in a smoothbore accurately ? thanks, Mike

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tinker I can only believe that your gun is uncommon large. I have never had any problems with magtech brass, cant find that it "weak" or soft.

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The 16b gun I speak of most is the Mahillon. It is uncommon in many ways (all of them are though, aren't they!), and I am perfectly comfortable with that.
With the chambers for the old 16b Gastight paper cases, I find the section of the new magtech brass small in diameter for the chamber at the throat, yet still too big inside diameter for the roundball.
Fireform then line with wax paper tube is the way, flexible for gas seal, and ok to hold the roundball.
I haven't shot this version enough to tell how many times I can fire each case before re-work.
The good news is that the re-work is cheap and easy.

I successfully conceived and pushed a campaign with many american 16b shotgun enthusiasts and an importer to get Cheddite (who was not very excited about the idea) to make a fresh run of 16b paper shotgun hulls and ship them to the US.
I ended up with some of these and intend to modify some of them for pinfire service, then to run them in my rifles and see how they perform.
The pair of Eley Gastight cases I got with my rifle had very thin metal sheet reinforcement inside the paper case walls.
I plan to do something similar with these before I run them in my rifles.
Just haven't done it yet. Swaging the rims down to fit my chambers is the last step in the process.
I haven't made tooling for that step yet.

Every step with these neat old rifles is full of discovery, very much like the way they themselves were steps along the path of discovery in the development of the breech-loading sporting guns and rifles!


--Tinker

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Albert Preuss
The Old Caliber...

...like a handful of earth thrown on a coffin lid. That was the farewell greeting of the old lady...

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*Lingering still after the mourners had cleared the grassy hill side, Tinker emerges from behind the Great Oak whose shade will shelter the grave and it's stone for generations to come.
Kneeling at the edge of the kerf he presses his plams into the earth, looks over his shoulders again for a clear scene, then reaches down to the lid of the case.
Raking his fingers through the soil, he strokes her coffin for the last time, then raises back to his feet for his last glimpse of her, so tucked down for sleep.
Tinker digs his hands deep into his pockets, rubbing the soil into the fabric of his breeks as he walks back to his horse. Standing there he takes his hands from his pockets and holds them to his face, taking into his heart and into his head the ageless scent of sod. The horse turns it's head back and presses it's snout under his chin
Time to carry on.
Up and ready to ride, he checks his gear and secures his rifle. Hunter and horse circle the Oak then head North into the forest - off to the chase in the old woods...*





--Tinker

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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this was a great find fuhrmann!
ok, the 24 ga here used was a very ligth load. 15,1mm long, 21,9 gramm cats head with 2,5 gramm (38,5 grain!!!!!)rifle blackpowder. the ballistic is what we think, only 342 m/sec

the 24 ga RWS cats head was 18,70mm long, weight 33,3gramm. obviously that there are different weight's around:

....
I have here camber cast's from 3 different guns

28/50 cartridge, Husqvarna Mod 17 A

24/40 cape gun, Funk /Suhl

20/40 heavy target rifle with Mauser M 71 action

all have a mark at 40mm to show the end of the case in the chamber. the husqvarna have a chamber for a 50mm long case and the 20 bore have a lot of freebore till rifling starts. the rifling in the Funk 24 ga starts immediate when the case ends. its clear that you can only load a cartridge with a bullet completely in the case. you get more than 38,5 grains in the case. I think that there is enough place for 70 grain BP in such a combination.( like the 577 snyder! a cartridge that take all game in its time including elephant in india) this funk cape gun is a very light one, maybe it was only build for light roe deer loads.

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