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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: DarylS]
      #183243 - 08/06/11 07:22 PM

http://www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com/en/usslug.html

The US-S (Ultra Solid-Smoothbore) slug as its name implies is a solid slug that offers deepest penetration possible from a smoothbore shotgun barrel.
The US-S slug has a .629 diameter, is machined from brass bar stock and is of the flat nose design with a meplat diameter of .510.
The US-S slug is encased in a sabot and there is also a stabilizing wad that is mechanically locked at the base of the slug by a protruding stud making it a one piece slug ready to be loaded in a primed and powdered hull.
Immediately after firing, the four petals that comprise the sabot break away due to air resistance, leaving the US-S slug and its attached stabilizing base to continue their travel to the target.










The US-S slug is machined in cnc horizontal machining centers with plus or minus .0002 tolerances to all its dimensions. The specific brass alloy used has a hardness of 120 Brinell.
That, along with the flat nose, undeforming design, gives the US-S slug straight unyielding penetration to any game animal used.
As of now, the US-S slug is available in 12 gauge with three different lengths (weights) for the three different hull lengths that 12 gauge shotguns are chambered.

US-S 570 for 2-3/4” chambers. Total slug weight is 570 grain.
US-S 700 for 3” chambers. Total slug weight is 700 grain.

US-S 970 for 3-1/2” chambers. Total slug weight is 970 grain.

Expected muzzle velocities are 1500 to 1600f/s for the US-S 570, 1400 to 1500f/s for the US-S 700 and 1200 to 1300f/s for the US-S 970, all under standard pressures.
The US-S slug must not be used in overbored shotgun barrels having a bore diameter bigger than .732. Also, best choke constriction is cylinder or improved cylinder and for safety reasons it must never be used in chokes tighter than modified.
The US-S slug is the first premium slug available for 12 gauge smoothbore shotguns and although designed as such it could be used equally well in fully rifled shotgun barrels or smoothbore barrels equipped with an appropriate rifled choke tube.
The US-S slug is offered by European Cartridge Unlimited as a component only, in packages of 25 slugs, to be loaded by handloaders and shotshell manufacturers..


the US-S 515P slug, machined of steel and hardened at 60 Rockwell "C".





penetration on steel looks very good, its not flesh and bone but worth a try I would say

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (14/06/11 09:07 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #183244 - 08/06/11 07:37 PM

just a little update for RWS shotgun slugs. you will find that RWS is offering now another slug line beside the original brenneke slug called Exact Slug in 12,16, 20 and 12 and 20 ga magnum
http://www.rws-munition.de/de/produkte/schrotpatronen/extra-line/exact.html


this nothing more than the italien made gulandi slug
http://www.gualandi.it/ENG/p_28_proiet.asp




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (14/06/11 09:07 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #193142 - 06/11/11 03:19 PM

shotgun slug designer never sleeping , here is another new maker from france who build a whole family of shotgun slugs around his concept. very nice website
http://www.eurofier-sa.com/































also special slugs for law enforcment but will be useful on dangerous game when no rifle is available





















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (25/11/11 11:43 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #201276 - 31/01/12 08:40 PM

the lost art of "Cut Shells"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU&feature=relmfu


wax slugs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhqosJmUS-0&feature=relmfu

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (31/01/12 08:53 PM)

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #201286 - 31/01/12 10:49 PM

Fascinating, I had heard the one about putting wax in a game load to make a "slug" but had also heard it might do nasty things to pressure but the cut cartridge is a new one on me. Never heard about it, could it harm a nice game gun ? best, Mike

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500Nitro
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #201287 - 31/01/12 10:56 PM


Mike
I wouldn't use them in a nice game gun but a good strong pigeon gun with opened up chokes, no worries. i wouldn't do it in a tightly choked Pigeon gun.

I shot heaps of Breneke's when I first came to Australia - good pig killers !!! - out of a WW Greener Shotgun - which between that and shooting ducks with ICIL'S made the gun loose.

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: 500Nitro]
      #201298 - 01/02/12 12:50 AM

they shot a cheap break action .410 gun with 444 marlin and 454 casull and it works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAnbDvLIA...mp;feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwX9mJvss1k&feature=relmfu

faq about cut shells

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BlbiKUWk...mp;feature=plcp

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #201341 - 01/02/12 07:50 PM

Absolutely astonishing. I didn´t realise they would even chamber in the little .410 !!! best (p.s. would a .458 win mag go in

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DarylS
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #201380 - 02/02/12 01:12 AM

I've used .444 Mrlin brass for making up 1/2ounce loads in my daughter's break open .410's when they were kids.

I use gas checks as over-shot wads, crimping in a normal seating die. Worked perfectly and outpattered both 2 1/2" and 3" at 30yards with modified chokes, reamed from the factory full versions.

I didn't know a Casull would chamber, but then a .45 colt should as well. I wouldn't fire either one in a .410 myself.

We shot the 'cut case' slugs at fox and jackrabbits when we were kids hunting back in Ontario - 12 bore and 20 bore.

The tight full choke in the Baikal over and unders would usually pop the crimps and start spreading shot as well.

Accidently shot a raven with one (old weak case let go just above the brass) as it was flying over our decoys, some 10 or 12 years ago. Made quite a hole in him. I guess it was his day to depart.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Grenadier
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: DarylS]
      #201386 - 02/02/12 01:37 AM

I believe the chamber of the .410 is over .46". It is not difficult to understand how a .454 Casull would work in it. There would be a lot of extra room for gas expansion before the bullet were to reach the forcing cone. I bet if they could jam a .460 S&W Magnum into the chamber of that gun and fire it there would be a different end to the story.

Instead, what I find fascinating is that the choked muzzle isn't bulging, cracking, or even stretching. Fosbery said he tried bullets of varying hardness in his rifled choke (aka Paradox) and they all seemed to work quite well despite the fact that some of those bullets were very, very hard. Some of the Paradox gun skeptics of his day could not believe that a large bullet could pass through the choke without damaging the muzzle. Fosbery claimed no deformation, even in barrels that had fired thousands of rounds. It would be interesting to watch a slow motion video of a .45 caliber bullet passing through the muzzle of the .410. We would see what is actually going on.

--------------------
~

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DarylS
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: Grenadier]
      #201399 - 02/02/12 03:15 AM


I don't have a listing on the .460 S&W, but the Casull's SAAMI pressure rating is 57,000PSI.


The .410 ctg. I just measured, a 3" Rem. Peters was .473" on the brass. That is why the .444 Marlin case fits, at a nomimal .469".

The chambers on both of my daughter's BOITO shotguns measure .475" with .410" bores, exactly.

The .454 Casull case, at a nominally listed .4775" diameter should not fit in my girl's shotguns, which is just fine.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: DarylS]
      #201409 - 02/02/12 05:14 AM

no doubt, the chamber of this cheap single shot .410 must be near or over maximum. if someone have told me that a .410 shotgun with a .387 barrel diameter could fire a .454 casull wihout a damage I would not have believe this.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #201412 - 02/02/12 06:24 AM

Nor me !! it looks like a Harrington and Richardson which I believe are about US$130 !! What a survival rifle though (assuming you have about 3 different types of ammo you could hunt the world as long as ranges were 15 metres or less )

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Sarg
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #201451 - 02/02/12 11:07 AM

I had a Harrington and Richardson single shot that was in 410 3in & 45LC with screw in choke , rifled barrel , not very accurate with the 45 LC , it had small firing pin & the rifle action rated to 270 , 30/06 so I tried 454 Casull , did a proof test fire how ever , no problem & was more accurate , then I got 30R Blaser cases blow them out and loaded with heavy 45LC slugs , good accuracy as no free bore & more power than a 45/70 !

The 444 Marlin were not the answer in my gun , but 9.3X74 blown out & shortened were close as I remember ?

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DarylS
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: Sarg]
      #201501 - 03/02/12 05:07 AM

I used the .444's for shot loads only. The improved patterning came from the internal ballistics, I'm sure, compared to the plastic hulls - perhaps more even pressures, velocities, etc. Whatever it was, worked. Got 2 of them, maybe should try shortening and rifling one.

Those 9.3x74's blown out & perhaps shortened to about 2.45" - to allow .5" bullet ahead of the crimp, sounds quite interesting. If the twist is fast enough, ie: 18", then a longer bullet, ie: 3/4" or .85" or so out of the case will then allow a .444 case at 2.2" to work well without excessive jump. Interesting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: DarylS]
      #206409 - 03/04/12 04:04 AM

not designed as a hunting slug but very impressive:


Kaviar 26L is a combined material shotgun slug for training and LE purposes. Slug expands and fragments only after hitting the target and transfers the energy without over-penetration. Slug doesn’t create dust or other small particles on impact.
kaviar
Performance Characteristics

Kaviar expands and fragments only after hitting the target
and delivers the energy to the target without losses during the flight.
No over-penetration - limited penetration allows the use in urban area
Large amount of energy transferred in the target immediately after the hit
Better accuracy compared to frangible ammunition
Reduced recoil - allows faster follow-up shots
Frangible – friendly to bullet traps and metal targets


Potential targets and applications

Training
Tactical operations
Entry – door breaching
EOD operations
Safe tyre deflation
Use in urban area

Weapon compatibility

Suitable for use in any type of 12 gauge shotgun
Allows the use of all types of chokes
Designed for smooth bore weapons, suitable also for use in rifled barrels



http://www.ddupleks-le.com/index.php?opt...162&lang=en

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pucX6R0vUP8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4DI3Wq9eyE&feature=player_embedded

Edited by CptCurl (04/04/12 08:57 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #208344 - 13/05/12 05:59 PM

12 Gauge Centurion Law Enforcement 2 1/4" MINI .65 Caliber Ball



The Centurion Round Ball Slug provides a shell with unique characteristics. It is loaded with one .650" (65 cal.) round ball slug. This specialized shotshell offers a shell for extreme defensive situations. The round ball slug provides maximum penetration and knockdown power.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/206/products_id/3425

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (12/06/12 08:46 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #208353 - 14/05/12 12:43 AM

That Flechette ammo would be clasified as prohitited in Canada.

Although the law originally was brought out against the multiple dart military loads,(don't know why) I'd expect the "Crown' could possibly get a conviction against you for any ammo that contained an 'arrow' principal. The original law was simply a situation of scary loads must be banned syndrome, I'd expect.

The do appear to be effective penetrators.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: DarylS]
      #208377 - 15/05/12 12:12 AM

we have a similar law not only against flechette's but against all sabot bullet ammunnition fired in a rifled barrel. the argument of course was to have a bullet you find the rifle or pistol for after a crime.
however they were inteligent enough to allow all kind's of sabot slugs for shotguns because every shot fired from a gun will be traceless.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #242560 - 17/02/14 03:32 PM

shotgun slug designing - a sport for the 21. century

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p32xmVXYLBk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdw3H25Si_0



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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drbd
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #242617 - 18/02/14 07:38 AM

Dear all,

just found this thread on bore gun projectiles- very interesting as I have a Martini actioned Francotte 24 bore. A chamber cast revealed a case lenght of about 40mm long- bore is 0.608/0.626 as far as I can measure this accurately - 7 grooves you know. A shortened 24 magtech case will not chamber (rim thickness+ diameter of the case just in front of the rim).
I have some questions to you, Lancaster:
- are there some moulds available for these projectiles
-which reloading dies to use for these short cases????
-Could you furnish me the exact dimensions of the RWS 'cathead' projectile?
Do you have reloading data for these short 24ga cartridges (smokeless powder or black)

At first I thought I had bought a 577 snider but this was way to small for the bore size. Dimensionally these short 24ga cases strongly resemble the 58 berdan cartridge but the bore size of the berdan is smaller

Best regards,
Benny

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buckland
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #242681 - 19/02/14 06:16 AM

I have a Manufrance Robust that is fully rifled. What type of slugs can I shoot out of it

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: drbd]
      #242725 - 19/02/14 07:02 PM

Quote:

Dear all,

just found this thread on bore gun projectiles- very interesting as I have a Martini actioned Francotte 24 bore. A chamber cast revealed a case lenght of about 40mm long- bore is 0.608/0.626 as far as I can measure this accurately - 7 grooves you know. A shortened 24 magtech case will not chamber (rim thickness+ diameter of the case just in front of the rim).
I have some questions to you, Lancaster:
- are there some moulds available for these projectiles
-which reloading dies to use for these short cases????
-Could you furnish me the exact dimensions of the RWS 'cathead' projectile?
Do you have reloading data for these short 24ga cartridges (smokeless powder or black)

At first I thought I had bought a 577 snider but this was way to small for the bore size. Dimensionally these short 24ga cases strongly resemble the 58 berdan cartridge but the bore size of the berdan is smaller

Best regards,
Benny



with a 15,44mm/15,90mm diameter barrel there is nothing that could fit. even the biggest in this group the 15,24x41R Russian Krnka have only a 15,24mm. bullet.

in a Martini action I remember also a .577 Snider cadet with a 40 mm long case but also way to small. the RWS cats head bullet in 24 ga. had a 15,70mm/15,80mm diameter( for the stop ring)



notice that there a two different bullets for Papphülsen (paper shells ) and Messinghülsen (brass)
and the stop ring have allways the same diameter: 15,80 but the bullet under the stop ring is smaller for paper shells
18,70mm is the length of the bullet, 33,3 gramm is the weight



I measure 24 ga Magtech brass here with 15,77mm inside and 16,29mm outside so it would be possible to made a cats head type bullet with a 15,75mm to 15,90 mm diameter.
15,90mm would be the ring laying against the case mouth.
a 15,90 mm roundball is another possibility, of course. I dont know anyone making such moulds but if you wish having a very good craftsman here who could make it for you. best will be if you have an old RCBS/Lyman steel mould you dont need anymore so he had only to change it inside.
did you have made a chamber cast now? you will find that Magtech brass will stand black powder loads very well. in my Husqvarna 17a in 28ga I shoot 40mm long Magtech brass loaded with 90 grains FFG and a 480 grains Lee Minie bullet slug to .600 and its not necessary to resize the case.
the original brass is also to thick over the rim so I lathe turned this and resize the case to a smaller diameter with a home made die.
BTW, I have a 24 ga. hammer double gun by Victor Collette in Liege the Magtech brass is also a little bit to thick over the rim when FIOCCHI 24 ga plastic shell's fit without problems. fortunately its not so much I cant turn the brass down on the lathe again. it seems the chamber's for gun were smaller in the old days.
so if you dont find anyone to change your brass for the martini please dont hesitate to ask, we are EU neighbours but I need a chamber cast then.
without seeing the proof on you rifle I would suggest to start with black powder only and the cats head bullet or a roundball can set by hand.

I recommand CH4D for a die set

please make pics of the whole rifle and any details and post

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: buckland]
      #242727 - 19/02/14 07:22 PM

Quote:

I have a Manufrance Robust that is fully rifled. What type of slugs can I shoot out of it



we need basic informations: gauge, left hand twist ( french military rifles have this) or right hand twist or straight rifling, chamber lenght, proof marks, one or two rifled barrels

best you made pics of the whole gun with any detail that could help. could you measure the land and field diameter of the rifling? if being a normal gun with a rifled barrel for optimising the use of slugs you could probably take any slug of this gauge but ... most slugs have slant ribs around the body and if this is in the direction of the twist it dont work very well

you see here a common Brennecke shot gun slug, the rips turning into the right direction like most rifling does


here is a special Brennecke slug for rifled barrels where the rips turning into the left direction and the rifling get them


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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drbd
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #242824 - 21/02/14 07:13 AM

Hello Lancaster,

THanks for the informtion. I will also try with a shortened 577 NE case and see how things work out.
I'll make pictures in the weekend- and I 'll try to post them (first time posting pics!!!!)
Best regards,
Benny

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