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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109816 - 16/07/08 04:50 AM

RWS was making the same bullet but with different diameter for paper case ( Papphülsen) and brass case(Messnighülsen)



bullet weigth for the 16 bore was 46,6 gramm for paper and 48,8 gramm for brass, very heavy for a 16 bore bullet
bullet length was 21,2mm

this bullet shows 3 driving bands, the upper have a 18,15mm diameter for both. this is the oversized stop ring, the bullet can only loaded till this ring lay on the case mouth.
the other two rings measure 17,10mm for paper and 18,00mm for brass cases.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:45 PM)


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109817 - 16/07/08 04:57 AM

it seems to be that 20, 24 and 28 ga are the most used bore rifle caliber's. 14 to 16mm bore diameter was also the prefer diameter for muzzle loading hunting rifle's




RWS brass case 24 ga 40mm

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:46 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109821 - 16/07/08 05:11 AM

the high of the lefaucheuxsystem was around 1875 and than begin to lost against the center fire more and more. it was in france where it best survive till WW 1. when Utendorfer or RWS making brass and bullets around the turn of the century the pin fire cartridge was in decline.


[image]http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Paradox_and_Bore_Rifles/lancaster/slug_bosomething special:



12 mm long Gevelot paper case, 40 mm long hollow bullet with powder charge inside



another Gevelot case for smoth bore's with 2 rotating stud's inside under the case mouth. the bullet have two guide groove's and leave the case when fired rotating. sorry bad pic



sophisticated reloadable brass case with a little door for cap replacemente_paradox_cartridges/1132956.jpg[/image]

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:46 PM)


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109822 - 16/07/08 05:12 AM

hope you enjoy it



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:47 PM)


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tinkerModerator
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109829 - 16/07/08 09:21 AM

Lancaster-

I am very much enjoying this.
I have seen the pinfire cases with 'rifling' in the case for use with bullet in smoothbore shotgun.

I have also seen photographs of the 'trap door' pinfire cases with the little percussion cap door for easy reloading.
This is great stuff for this thread!!

The Gevelot short-case/deep hollow base bullet with powder charge is a new one for me.
Interesting.

Please assist with relevant translation of these terms from the page with catshead bullet image above:

caliber = (Bore or Groove) diameter?
führung = my free translator says 'leadership' Is this chamber diameter? It's the same for metal or paper case...
länge = length
gewicht = weight
stuckzahl = (number of) pieces (per package)?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #109844 - 16/07/08 01:47 PM

caliber means here the diameter of the bullet

führung means the diameter of the stop ring

länge is total length of the bullet

gewicht is weight of the bullet

stückzahl is number of pieces per kilogramm

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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tinkerModerator
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109847 - 16/07/08 02:39 PM

Lancaster-

Thanks.
That all makes perfect sense.


On stop ring diameter off the catshead bullet drawings and specifications from the page you have shown above:

Stopring diameter is the same for paper or metal case.
Bore/groove for metal case will be different than bore/groove for paper case, right?
That makes the paper case bullet 'more of a squeeze' into the bore and grooves then doesn't it?

My level of comfort says "Tinker, run pure balls of a diameter slightly over groove diameter"
The above noted information suggests "With your paper case guns, run conical bullets of fairly larger diameter than groove diameter"

What is your perspective on this, Lancaster?

Taking 16b for instance
-with metal case the difference between bullet (we'll assume groove) diameter and stopring is only .005"
-with paper case the difference between bullet (we'll assume groove) diameter and stopring is .041" (1mm)!!

Do you think that hunters were firing conicals down their barrels that were .041" (1mm) larger in diameter at the stopring than the groove diameter of their barrels?

Have you ever done this?

Thanks for entertaining my curiosity.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #109872 - 17/07/08 01:15 AM

tinker, every gun shooting the paper case was able to do it with brass! the stop ring diameter is what counts. I believe he was a little bit oversized for fitting every rifle.Its clear that a brass case have a bigger inside diameter than a paper cases. RWS know's it also, make a paper case bullet 17,10 mm in dia. and a brass case bullet 18,00mm. its only for the correct fit in the cases.
such bore rifles show a big difference in bore/groove dimensions.

thats your way:"Tinker, run pure balls of a diameter slightly over groove diameter"
but look also for the inside diameter of your case

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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tinkerModerator
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109890 - 17/07/08 05:21 AM

Lancaster-


Thanks for your perspective.

On inside diameter of cases:
Something I notice with thick brass cases used in paper case guns is *poor gas seal*

I have worked around this in a couple of ways, one way is to make the 'belly' of the brass case thin wall, and the mouth thick wall to grasp the ball.
That is a bit of extra work on the lathe.
I also have run 'medium' wall thickness on the brass cases, and with special necking tool, re-size the mouth at each time after I fire the case.

Another way to go is as I pictured with the Westley Richards Explora case I picrured above -- here it is again



This WR special cartridge shows very thin brass case, like the cheap magtech brass we get today, with two-diameter paper tube liner.
See the step?
Internal 'Stop-Ring' accomplished in a different manner!

I have made a couple of these for my guns and tried them for function, they work.
I found that the brass expanded quite a bit to fit the chambers of my guns, and my plan to go forward with is to fire-form more thin magtech brass for my chambers, then make the mandrel for the special internal paper tube liner.

The paper tube liner can be made from high-quality paper found at art stores, I also will try Vellum. With such paper it is easy (as it is with the bullet paper jacket) to get precisely the thickness you desire. On a heated mandrel (hot enough to keep the bees wax melted) wrap the paper, wetting it with the liquid bees wax.
The finial tube is folded slightly at the base, held into the base of the magtech 'ballon-head' hulls with epoxy or other adhesive (I have not discovered the ideal solution here - epoxy may be the best)

Note, as you know - with the pinfire system this is quite the craft process down in the cartridge base. I have many things to consider down there including cap support and pin passage, also if fortunate and careful -- Gas-Seal!

I very much enjoy this conversation.
This forum site is a great old parlour for us to gather, with close access to so many workshops and reference books.
I feel fortunate to be a part of this, and to have the eclectic taste that I have for these fine old guns and rifles.

I am healing more every day, and I am getting closer to being able to get around my own parlour, grounds, and workshops (of which I have many here in this old place)
As soon as I can make it through the yard back into the machineshop and stand at the lathe, get up the stairs and the passage into my attic workshop, I will bring more of my parts and cartridges to this thread for us to see and discuss.

Until then, my thoughts are churning and my notepads are filling with thoughts, tasks, and images.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:47 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #109926 - 18/07/08 03:26 AM

tinker I can only believe that your gun is uncommon large. I have never had any problems with magtech brass, cant find that it "weak" or soft. I load 90 grain ffg in a 40mm long magtech brass case under a 480grain minie bullet. the bullet is resized from .585 to .605 in a home made hammer swage die to fit bore diameter.




my chamber is so tight that I cant load a cut down magtech case. it needs a resizing work in another die to press it down on the case mouth from 15,60mm to 15,47mm. this is not so much but the brass won't load without.



28ga magtech brass, 50mm long with bullet and loaded cartridge, 40mm long case-loaded
the 50mm brass is the original swedish version. I have try to load a long bullet in this case but the chamber is made for a roundball. I load the bullet in 40mm "german" brass with a .577 snider die.

I have loaded some cases the 5.time now and it dont need another resize work. the brass is annealed and I dont believe that this is a wimp load!

have a .24ga hammergun that accept 24. fiocchi plastik but is much to tight for the 24 magtech brass. I believe that the brass is 0,3mm to large on the base to fit the chamber. I turn this material from the base,anneal and resize the case in another home made die. than press it into a .577 snider die and I be able to fireform the brass.




you fauneta pic is very interesting, I was believe before that the fanneta and explora magnum bore cartridge had have a very strong brass case.It looks very, very thin.
seem's me that your inner paper case is a lot of work. will it stand against the black powder heat? I like to see some pics from your pinfire cartridges. have make such things some years ago.
have shot 40mm cases in a 16 bore made from 18mm copper tupe in my wild days. that was when magtech brass was hard to obtain here.
you can imagine what happen with such a loose fit.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:48 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges *DELETED* [Re: lancaster]
      #109933 - 18/07/08 05:12 AM

Post deleted by lancaster

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (18/07/08 05:14 AM)


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tinkerModerator
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109939 - 18/07/08 06:32 AM

Lancaster-

When I refer to the magtech as cheap and (have I said weak?) weak, It's not necessarily language against the product.
I actually like the fact that the product is thin. I get a better chance at good gas seal with it than with thick brass and that's what I like about it.
Cheap is good too. I can screw with it quite a bit and not worry so much about the price.


Quote:

tinker I can only believe that your gun is uncommon large. I have never had any problems with magtech brass, cant find that it "weak" or soft.





The 16b gun I speak of most is the Mahillon. It is uncommon in many ways (all of them are though, aren't they!), and I am perfectly comfortable with that.
With the chambers for the old 16b Gastight paper cases, I find the section of the new magtech brass small in diameter for the chamber at the throat, yet still too big inside diameter for the roundball.
Fireform then line with wax paper tube is the way, flexible for gas seal, and ok to hold the roundball.
I haven't shot this version enough to tell how many times I can fire each case before re-work.
The good news is that the re-work is cheap and easy.

I successfully conceived and pushed a campaign with many american 16b shotgun enthusiasts and an importer to get Cheddite (who was not very excited about the idea) to make a fresh run of 16b paper shotgun hulls and ship them to the US.
I ended up with some of these and intend to modify some of them for pinfire service, then to run them in my rifles and see how they perform.
The pair of Eley Gastight cases I got with my rifle had very thin metal sheet reinforcement inside the paper case walls.
I plan to do something similar with these before I run them in my rifles.
Just haven't done it yet. Swaging the rims down to fit my chambers is the last step in the process.
I haven't made tooling for that step yet.

Every step with these neat old rifles is full of discovery, very much like the way they themselves were steps along the path of discovery in the development of the breech-loading sporting guns and rifles!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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fuhrmann
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109940 - 18/07/08 06:40 AM

Lancaster,

thanks for putting this online!
This is what I believe to be the first comparative ballistic table in German literature, published in 1900 in "Das Schiesswesen" a supplement to the hunting journal "Die Deutsche Jäger-Zeitung".
Having no scanner at hand, I retyped and translated this into an Excel file. One might see a bit more by saving the pictured, the some enlarging and editing.

The table is interesting because it compares a cross-section of old and new cartridges of the time.
Oldest: 24 bore rifle cartridge - the link relevant to this thread.
Some .500 and 11 mm BPE cartridges
Some 9.3 BP cartridges (the 9.3x72 and 82R were pretty hot numbers these days)
The 7x57 and 8x57(I), still much relevant today
As the hottest number the 6 mm Lee Navy!
And to the extreme, a 4 bore elephant rifle.

I did not retype the lengthy article accompanying the table. You will certainly enjoy to do your own interpretation of the numbers.
A lot of the text is actually explaining that these are experimental data with a lot of possible variations, so the reader should not stick to the numbers too closely.
Then the reader should see that velocity per se is not important - bullet drop and the ballistic curve is of practical relevance to the hunter. Also energy is a theoretical value, with little practical importance.

Some words about the author Albert Preuss, an important but quite forgotten pioneer of ballistics and shooting:

born 29.1.1864 in Berlin
from app. 1890 renown shotgun master shot
from ca. 1900 head of the ballistic test station Neumannswalde-Neudamm (sponsored by Deutsche-Jäger-Zeitung)
inventor of many practical items for shooting grounds: clay target throwers, moving targets, and a rifle rest for sighting in, that still is found on many German rifle stands
1905: "Lehrbuch des Flintenschiessens", even today a joy to read, Preuss knew his trade
1912: Olympic Games at Stockholm: won the bronce medal in clay target shooting (team event) and finished 6th in the singles event
1933: I found a last commentary by Preuss „Kugel und Schrot“ (the DEVA journal)
Date and place of death unknown

To be continued


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fuhrmann
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: fuhrmann]
      #109941 - 18/07/08 06:51 AM

Now here comes the fun part:
Mr. Preuss certainly was a very methodic and competitive person, open to new developments and obviously with a lot of technical and anlytical knowledge.
But the last part of the said article is a surprising and touching obituary to his beloved and now obsolete 24 bore rifle, showing quite a different side of the man.
I had a lot of fun typing and translating this text, and I hope some of you will enjoy it, too:

Schiesswesen Bd.. 3 (1900), Nr. 9, S. 69-71
Albert Preuss
Das alte Kaliber

Werfen wir einen kurzen, flüchtigen Blick auf die Tabelle, so berührt es uns fast schmerzlich, wohin das selige, uns fast allen bekannte Kaliber 24 gekommen ist. Bescheiden, mit grossen Zahlen sieht uns die treue Jagdgefährtin aus unserer Jugendzeit an und schlicht, aber vorwurfsvoll spricht sie zu uns: „Ist das der Dank für all die schönen Stunden, die ich Deiner Jugendzeit verlieh? Habe ich jemals nach dem Ruhm gelechzt, in einer von modernem Geiste übertünchten Tabelle an der Spitze zu stehen? Frevelthat ist es, mich der Überkultur preiszugeben, denn mein Wert lag in der Zeit, und nur mit den Zeitverhältnissen will ich beurteilt sein.“ So ähnlich klingen die ehrwürdigen Worte der alten Büchsen. In wonnetrunkenen Erinnerungen schwebt uns die alte Kugel als die Quintessenz der edlen Waidgerechtigkeit vor, und mancher Greis knüpft an das stumm an der Wand hängende alte Eisen seine schönsten Jugendträume. Wie jeder Mensch die Kochkunst seiner Mutter für die vollendete hält, wie jeder, der sich einem Berufe gewidmet, auf die Tüchtigkeit seines Meisters schwört, so gönne man den Alten auch ihre Schwärmerei für die alte Waffe. Die Verehrung der dem Zeitgeist weichenden Waffen ist keine blosse Starrköpfigkeit, sie ist keine Ignoranz des Fortschritts, sie ist ein Stück Religion des Waidwerks, welche die jungen Rekordbrecher auf ballistischem Gebiet nicht verhöhnen, sondern vor der sie ihr Haupt beugen sollen. Die alten Geschosse haben eine grosse Vergangenheit und, was schwer ins Gewicht fällt, ihre überlegene Praxis. Wie wir heute über unsere Urväter staunen, dass es ihnen möglich war, Jahrhunderte, ja Jahrtausende hindurch den Wisent, den Ur mit dem Speere, mit Pfeil und Bogen zu jagen, so giebt es heute schon Jünger im Waidwerk, denen die Anhänglichkeit an das alte Kaliber als ein Rätsel erscheint. Das Wort Rasanz ist die Losung der Neuzeit, und ihr werden Heiligtümer geopfert, welche die alte Jägerei nie und nimmer hergegeben hätte. Ja, war’s denn möglich, mit der alten Kugel mit Wollfadenumwickelung überhaupt zu treffen? Kein Schuss in meinem Leben hat mir solche Freude bereitet als der erste Kugelschuss auf Wild. Freilich war er wegen des Objekts, dem er galt, nicht ganz einwandfrei. Hat aber nicht jeder Jäger so ein kleines Schuldkonto? Und wenn man gar als kaum 13jähriger Spiesser, voll Selbstgefühl in der Kinderbrust, so ganz allein den Wald durchstreifen darf, ist es da zu verargen, wenn die Schiesspassion die Herrschaft über die Vernunft gewinnt?
Was nicht mehr zeitgemäss ist, gehört der Vergangenheit an, die ewig still steht. Auch die blosse Betrachtung der entschwindenden Kaliber ist verlorene Zeit, die Welt strebt vorwärts, und verlassen steht der, der sich dem Drängen nicht anschliesst.
Nehmen wir daher Abschied von dem Jugendtraume und unserer treuen Gefährtin. Die letzte Kugel Kaliber 24 habe ich bei den Versuchen verschossen für alle Zeiten. Auch die liebe, gute Alte schien die Poesie der Situation zu erkennen, einen scharf markierten Kugelschlag rief sie vom Wall zurück, dumpf war sein Ton, gleich dem, den eine auf den Sarg geworfene Handvoll Erde hervorbringt. Das war der Scheidegruss der Alten. Der liebe Kugelschlag, den man so oft gehört, er ist dahin, er war ein Stück Ansichtspostkarte, durch welche die Kugel auf ihrer Reise Kunde von sich gab. Die modernen Geschosse gehen in die Welt, wer weiss wohin?
Ist es nicht herzlos und barbarisch, eine bisher geliebte und vergötterte Gefährtin, bloss weil sie kurz, dick und nicht mehr modern ist und nur schweren bedächtigen Schrittes über die Roggenspitzen hinwegkommt, von sich zu stossen und einer kleinen, zierlichen, leicht geschürzten mit recht schlanker Taille den Arm zu bieten? Doch hüte dich vor der Verführerin und sei auf deiner Hut, damit sie dir nicht eines Tages Unannehmlichkeiten bereitet, vor denen du bei deiner lieben Alten sicher warst!
Die jungen Schlanken sind Durchgänger.


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fuhrmann
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: fuhrmann]
      #109942 - 18/07/08 07:02 AM

And here is my attempt of an English translation:

Schiesswesen Bd.. 3 (1900), Nr. 9, S. 69-71
Albert Preuss
The Old Caliber

Throwing a brief, fleeting glance at the table, we will be touched almost painfully of what has become of the blessed caliber 24, known to almost all of us. Modestly, with large numbers (???) the faithful hunting companion of our young days is looking at us, and chastely, but reproachfully she speaks to us: “Is this your thanks for all the fine hours that I awarded to your young days? Have I ever strived for the fame to be the first in a table plastered with modern spirit? It is sacrilege to submit me to “overculture”, for my worth was in time, and only with respect to time I want to be judged.” Such are the venerable words of the old rifles. In blissful memories the old bullet appears to be the essence of noble hunting ethics, and many an old man will tie his finest youthful dreams to the old iron hanging mutely on the wall. As every man will hold his mother’s cooking to be perfect, as everyone who has devoted himself to a profession will swear by the skills of his master craftsman, so we shall grant the old ones their devotion to the old guns. Reverence of those guns making way to modern spirit is not bare stubbornness, it is not ignorance of progress, it is part of the religion of hunting, which the young record breakers in the ballistic field shall not deride, but they shall bow their heads. The old bullets have a grand past and, weighing heavily, their superior practice.
As we today are amazed about our forefathers being able through centuries, even millennia to hunt Wisent and Aurochs with the spear, with bow and arrow, so even today there are disciples of hunting for whom devotedness to the old caliber appears as a mystery. The word “fast-paced” is the slogan of the new time, and to it holy objects are sacrificed that the old hunters would have never parted with. Was it really possible to hit at all with the old bullet wrapped in woollen thread?
No shot has in my life has been more joyous than the first rifle shot on game. Admittedly, it was not quite flawless, owing to the object it was aimed at. But does not every hunter have a small debt account? And if you are allowed to roam the woods all on your own, as a two-pointer not quite 13 years old, your child’s breast filled with pride, can there be blame if shooting passion wins the command over reason?
What is not up to date anymore belongs to the past which is standing still in eternity. And mere reflection of vanishing calibers is lost time, the world is striving forward, and forlorn stands he who does not join the hustle.
So let us say farewell to the youthful dreams and to our faithful companion. The last bullet caliber 24 I have fired in these trials, for all times. The dear, good old lady also seemed to recognize the poetry of the situation; a sharply defined bullet smack she called back from the parapet, dull was its sound, like a handful of earth thrown on a coffin lid. That was the farewell greeting of the old lady. The dear bullet smack, heard so often, it is gone, it was a picture postcard by which the bullet told about its travel. The modern bullets go into the world, who knows whereto?
Isn’t it heartless and barbaric to reject a companion, up to now beloved and worshipped, only because she is short, fat and not modern anymore, and is moving only at a heavy deliberate pace across the rye spires, to offer your arm to a small, petite, lightly clad one with a slender waist? But beware of the temptress and watch out that she is not causing trouble some day from which you would have been secure with your dear old lady!
The young and slender ones are fleeting companions.


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tinkerModerator
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: fuhrmann]
      #109945 - 18/07/08 08:06 AM

Quote:


Albert Preuss
The Old Caliber...

...like a handful of earth thrown on a coffin lid. That was the farewell greeting of the old lady...





*Lingering still after the mourners had cleared the grassy hill side, Tinker emerges from behind the Great Oak whose shade will shelter the grave and it's stone for generations to come.
Kneeling at the edge of the kerf he presses his plams into the earth, looks over his shoulders again for a clear scene, then reaches down to the lid of the case.
Raking his fingers through the soil, he strokes her coffin for the last time, then raises back to his feet for his last glimpse of her, so tucked down for sleep.
Tinker digs his hands deep into his pockets, rubbing the soil into the fabric of his breeks as he walks back to his horse. Standing there he takes his hands from his pockets and holds them to his face, taking into his heart and into his head the ageless scent of sod. The horse turns it's head back and presses it's snout under his chin
Time to carry on.
Up and ready to ride, he checks his gear and secures his rifle. Hunter and horse circle the Oak then head North into the forest - off to the chase in the old woods...*






--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #109966 - 18/07/08 10:25 PM

beleg2 send me a PM
"Beg your pardon, I would like to know a little more about the way you resized Minie bullets from .585 to .605. i have a .577 Snider double rifle and I have try some bullets without success.
As I have a Minie mold Im very interested in you method.
Also, Have you try it on R.E.A.L bullets?

Thanks "

its possible, I leave once the house to buy a snider and come home with a bore rifle. was thinking that the .585 minie bullet will work in the .605 barrel but it work not great. a bore sized bullet is allways the best. when the military adopt the various muzzle loader conversions after 1864/1866 they also use the large stock of minie bullets for loading cartridges.found the hammer swage die in Graeme Wrigth "shooting the british double rifle". he describe the making of .516 lead bullets from .458 cast and I was think that this goes for me. the hammer swage die set is simple and easy to made on a lathe. you have the massive die body, a nose forming punch and a base punch. the die bode have simply a hole with your needed diameter. the base punch have this outside dia. and is plain on the base or like i need for minie's conical. the nose forming punch can have any design you like: plain, round or hollow nose like mine. it will work also with a real bullet with another base punch if you dont increase the diameter to much.this is the way to use inexpensive mold's in common caliber to make bullet for your special bore.

" then when the die set assembled it is stoody vertically on a hard surface and the base punch is rapped a few times with a heavy hammer. its easy to feel when the the bullet expanded"





cast bulled, lubed, swaged, swaged without lube
its necessary to lube the bullet before because the swaging process will fill the grease groove's without. lead under pressure will flow like water.











--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:49 PM)


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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109968 - 18/07/08 10:48 PM

Lancaster,
Thank you very much!
Martin


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #109973 - 19/07/08 05:03 AM



Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:49 PM)


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #109975 - 19/07/08 05:13 AM

There we go.
Got this sorted with the help of an associate.
It's a wee bit big for my small laptop screen, but I think for the sake of the information it's worth it to pan left/right a little bit to be able to read all the information.


Have fun with this!


--Tinker


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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #109979 - 19/07/08 06:15 AM

Tinker,

that's much better now - thanks!

Fuhrmann


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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: fuhrmann]
      #110001 - 19/07/08 03:05 PM

They have a 10 bore doublerifle cartridge on their program Looks great.

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: rigbymauser]
      #110009 - 19/07/08 03:54 PM

this was a great find fuhrmann!
ok, the 24 ga here used was a very ligth load. 15,1mm long, 21,9 gramm cats head with 2,5 gramm (38,5 grain!!!!!)rifle blackpowder. the ballistic is what we think, only 342 m/sec

the 24 ga RWS cats head was 18,70mm long, weight 33,3gramm. obviously that there are different weight's around:



the first 3 bullets in this pic are all 20 ga


I have here camber cast's from 3 different guns



28/50 cartridge, Husqvarna Mod 17 A

24/40 cape gun, Funk /Suhl

20/40 heavy target rifle with Mauser M 71 action

all have a mark at 40mm to show the end of the case in the chamber. the husqvarna have a chamber for a 50mm long case and the 20 bore have a lot of freebore till rifling starts. the rifling in the Funk 24 ga starts immediate when the case ends. its clear that you can only load a cartridge with a bullet completely in the case. you get more than 38,5 grains in the case. I think that there is enough place for 70 grain BP in such a combination.( like the 577 snyder! a cartridge that take all game in its time including elephant in india) this funk cape gun is a very light one, maybe it was only build for light roe deer loads.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:50 PM)


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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #110032 - 20/07/08 12:37 AM

Hi,
I would like to include sone pictures taken form Fanufrance catalog.
I do not know the date but presume it was puished around 1938.


The Ideal shotgun with one rifled barrel.


The bullet.

more to come.
Martin

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:51 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: beleg2]
      #110041 - 20/07/08 02:47 AM

very interesting beleg2, I try to make it something bigger




it looks like a cats head bullet with a brenneke wad. if this is around 1938 and was new in this time it may be the reason its unknown today, the outbreak of WW 2 in 1939 stopped it. there was an italian made over/under 12 bore 10 years ago with a rifled and a choked barrel. when I see it right they make the "Ideal" gun in 20, 16 and 12 bore. the MF slug was available in 14mm (32 ga), 24, 20, 16, 12 and 10ga but not in 28 ga.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/02/11 10:51 PM)


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