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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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tarawa
.333 member


Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Where to start??
      #109516 - 11/07/08 10:20 PM

Well, to make a long story short, I gathered up a bunch shotguns and picked one to convert. I got interested in the bore guns, so I picked up a pair of Hastings 12 gauge rifled barrel blanks. Then I realized to make a DR using 12 gauge barrels, you need to make the rifle the old fashioned way...from scratch. Or as one very knowledgable member here said...get a 10 gauge shotgun and go the monoblock method.
The first thing I need to do is to taper the barrels to the same dimensions as the original shotgun barrels. The blanks are approx. 1.3" in diameter.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Where to start?? [Re: tarawa]
      #109557 - 12/07/08 03:10 AM

Tarawa-

What is the bore and groove dimensions, the rifling profile, and the rate of twist on these barrels?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tarawa
.333 member


Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Where to start?? [Re: tinker]
      #109621 - 13/07/08 03:02 AM

Tinker,
The blanks are the same ones that they start with to make the Remington 1100 Paradox rifle. They told me that the twist is 1 turn in 34". I am measuring about .712" and .685" Barrel is 30" long.
geo

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
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Re: Where to start?? [Re: tarawa]
      #110244 - 23/07/08 08:37 AM

Tarawa,
I think if you choose a robust enough 12 gauge, you can put your 12 gauge rifle tubes on it. The sleeves will be thin, but not overly so if the monoblock has enough meat in the walls to allow it.
They re-sleeve shotguns all the time back to the original gauges and the thin rifling in those tubes won't make enough difference to count. They will have to be fitted closely, of course, and properly soldered in with the right solder, but you shouldn't have any problems with doing them this way.
There are two ways to do the barrel stubs. The first is the way Beretta did it. Instead of boring straight through the monoblock, they stop the boring and reaming process about .150 to .200 short of going through to the breech end of the monoblock, leaving a reinforement ring of steel, (for lack of a better term). It extends at least .065 into the chamber area and is part of the monoblock. The shotgun rim cuts are cut into the back side of this reinforcement ring. The barrel stubs are turned down till the wall thickness is .065 after short chambering and turning the stub ends down. The forward shoulder of the barrel butts up against the front of the monoblock and the back end of the stub simultaneosly butts up against the inside shoulder of the reinforcement ring. The distance is critical so that both surfaces bump up at the same time. This leaves a hidden joint at the back of the gun's breech, in order to see the joint, you have to look very closely inside the chamber and down about .200 from the back. Most people don't even realise that their gun was built this way.
The other way, if you have enough barrel thickness at the front of the chambers, is to bore straight through and ream the monoblock accordigly. Your barrel sleeve stubs can still be only .065 wall thickness if necessary, but you will then be cutting the shotgun rims into the backs of the barrel stubs. If you have enough meat in the mono to allow it, ream the bores of the monoblock till you get rid on the old rim cuts, that does away with fitting and soldering in rings as fillers. Your stub ends will then be thicker and you don't need much wall thickness up front for the barrel shoulders to bump up on so don't worry too much about that. That's not near as neat as the first way, but it will work and not be too visable if the stubs are carefully fitted.
In neather case do the barrel stubs have to be threaded. The main thing is to keep everything centered well while doing the drilling and reaming. Bob H.


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Where to start?? [Re: tarawa]
      #110250 - 23/07/08 11:16 AM

Tarawa-

This MacNaughton is one of the coolest lightweight medium bore rifles I've seen.
I just really like it for lots of different reasons, for instance look at the chamber contour.






That's the original contour!
There are other neat features about this rifle, the best in my opinion is that it's an Edinburgh round action!
Also, the tubes run ribless to the muzzles, which feature an adjustable front sight.





I have a Cogswell and Harrison 8b stocked action, locks, and triggers - essentially the 'rear end' of an 8b double. I've thought of doing a 'super 12b' ball gun on that chassis, using this style of stepped barrel contour but with ribs.
I've seen C&H guns with this treatment too, so it wouldn't be totally out of fashion in the doing.


Just some images to get your thoughts churning, nothing else here.




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Where to start?? [Re: tinker]
      #110255 - 23/07/08 11:48 AM

It's MacNaughton's patent of 1899. Monoblock barrels! Go to the books and read! There's nothing new under the sun.

If I had a scanner I would scan the patent . . oops just thought of Google patents!

Curses, no patent on the U.S. side or else I don't know how to search Google Patents.

Just looked in my British reference books. It's patent #12,464 of June 15, 1899 granted to J. MacNaughton:

Quote:

Fig. 2 shows a plan of a double-barreled gun, in which the barrels A are connected by sleves B, C, and the space between the barrels being free or filled by non-heat-conducting material. . .




These wonderful MacNaughton rifles hail that patent right on their ribs, etc.

I like those rifles, but can't afford one.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Where to start?? [Re: CptCurl]
      #110256 - 23/07/08 11:58 AM

By the way, Tinker, I know that gun quite well. The photos you posted are of a MacNaughton .303 that Mike Schwandt had a couple years ago. I handled an admired that rifle, and I scarfed the photos into my archive!

At the same time I was negotiating with Graham MacKinley for a similar MacNaughton he had bought at the GlenEagles auction in August 2006. Almost mint, supposedly. Very high priced, not supposedly.

Here's a photo of Graham MacKinley's rifle from the Sotheby's website, which I scarfed back then:



Cool rifles, for sure.

Monoblocked. Patent of 1899.

Curl

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RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Where to start?? [Re: CptCurl]
      #110257 - 23/07/08 12:02 PM

One last comment:

You know, the Brits would probably let you patent a housecat. I imagine they had been sleeving barrels for a long time before MacNaughton's patent.

And who ever saw an attribution to MacNaughton's patent on a set of sleeved barrels? Is it because the ribs were replaced?

400NitroExpress, you are the historian here. What say ye?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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tarawa
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Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Where to start?? [Re: CptCurl]
      #110260 - 23/07/08 12:34 PM

Thanks for all the great info. Now you all got me worked up about starting this project. That double rifle lookas a lot like my cheap remington...without the rib!

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Where to start?? [Re: tarawa]
      #110268 - 23/07/08 04:28 PM

Curl-

Funny that, I'd saved the images of the 303 the first time I saw them. I have those photos tucked away in a few different places.

There's an early Belgian patent on monoblock construction too, I think it's a Pieper patent.
I'll dig for the details some time this week.

I'd seen the rifle you noted above when it came around as well.
Just like the 303, I was in full drool mode when I'd seen it.

They're a kind of different look that a lot of guys just don't get -- you know, like a black stock on a double rifle. Most everyone will puke at the thought, unless it's an original ebonized Purdey where the perspective makes all the difference.
I especially like the Scottish rifles though and unique little features like those stout monoblocks and spindly barrels are icing on the cake.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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