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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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xsheadspace
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Reged: 09/07/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Upstate NY
My 45-100 project
      #109351 - 09/07/08 11:28 PM

Wow, I finally found a bunch of guys as crazy as I am! Here's a few photos of my 45-100 built on a 1970's Merkel 12 ga. Used Ellis Brown's book for info. Still trying to get the shots closer than 3" apart at 50 yds. Found that the muzzle block needs .008" taken out to get regulated. Before I soldered and blued it, the shote were crossing, so the 2 setscrews were to spread the left barrel to regulate. Can't get above 2250 fps with a 350 gr bullet without the cases stretching .006" per firing, which means the action springs tis amount(egad!). Maybe the greener bolt is not tight fitted?

--------------------
hippie redneck geezer

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tinker
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: xsheadspace]
      #109369 - 10/07/08 04:30 AM

Neat looking double.

How have you confirmed the 'on-face or not on-face' condition of your action?

What brand and kind of brass are you using?

What is the load, including everything from primer to bullet including filler etc?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: xsheadspace]
      #109383 - 10/07/08 08:53 AM

Very Nicely Done! What happens if you back the screws out half way? Have you tried using a 300 grain bullet and speeding them up? That would give you less barrel time and should bring them closer together. How fast do you think you want the 350 grain bullets to run? You may have to adjust the front spacer after all. It is a pain in the ass, I KNOW, but it may be necessary. I have found that if you make up a C clamp with rounded cut outs on the bottom jaw and the screw pad, that you can sometime apply pressure to the front or back of the front spacer and heat it till the solder softens, then let it cool while under pressure. That is SOMETIMES enough to move the POI enough to get the job done without the necessity of rebluing.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #109384 - 10/07/08 08:57 AM

P.S.- I think the brass flowage is due to the loads, not the action springing that far apart.

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Marrakai
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #109410 - 10/07/08 01:13 PM

Quote:

cases stretching .006" per firing


xs: might pay to check that the rim-recesses are not cut too deep.

Try sticking a disc of ~6thou paper onto each case-head, then see if the action will still close.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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dale
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Reged: 28/02/06
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: Marrakai]
      #109414 - 10/07/08 02:59 PM

Hi xsheadspace,

A really great looking job. Please post any other pictures you have, the other one I saw was damn impressive. Also, more details on the build.
thanks

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: dale]
      #109433 - 10/07/08 09:53 PM

Yes, Marrakai - I agree that the headspace should be checked.

Is this straight case 2.4". 2.6" or 2 7/8"? All were loaded with 100gr. of powder with certain bullet weights. The 2.4"Sharps also called the .45/90 by Winchester was loaded with up to 100gr.BP and a 550gr. bullet by Sharps.

I would hold loads with the 350gr. to 2,250fps in a 2.4" case, but a longer case should get a bit more with no stretching. Stretching is usually caused by headspace problems, not due to maximum loads. 2,250fps can be achieve in a .45 2.1" in a lever gun at 43,000psi. The longer cases will deliver the same velocity at slightly lower pressure & this depends on the case length. A 3 1/4" .45 case will deliver 300gr. bullets at something like 2,400fps to 2,600fps at 34,000PSI using H4895 (or maybe IMR4895) This was Lyman data, can't remember off-hand.

The Speer 350 gr. should make a terrific North American big game round at 2,250fps - for all heavy game. I'd not try for higher speeds in that double.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Birdhunter50
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: xsheadspace]
      #109437 - 10/07/08 11:20 PM

One of the things that make the 45-70 somewhat touchier to chamber is that there is some variation in rim thickness between various maker of brass and even in some of the same lot at times. I just took a randum sampling from my range box and came up with an over all difference in rim thinkness of .005 between several rounds. For final sight ins and for hunting, I use nothing but newer Remington or Federal cases and they both have the thicker rims. When you do the headspacing, you have to take into account the thickest rims you will encounter. I don't know how closely your brass is manufactured, but it might pay you to measure a few rims. Have you tried trimming them back to original length and then re-firing and re-measuring a few of them to see if the streching continues? Brass work hardens as it is fired and resized, (that may help some, I'm not sure of this though),if it doesn't, you may have to set the barrels back .006 or so. Bob H.

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xsheadspace
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Reged: 09/07/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Upstate NY
Re: My 45-100 project [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #109466 - 11/07/08 07:31 AM

Headspace is tight, I believe(checking with a straightedge), and under the 75 gr load of 4064, there is no stretch. These are 2.6" Starline cases. Cases started seperating after 4 reloads, with the telltale crack starting 3/8" in front of the rim, when I was using something like 61 gr of 3031. Should I be using a dacron filler, if the case is 90% full, like with the 4064?? How would H4350 work out--would probably be a full case? PS: The bottom screw is not engaged, the top screw bears about .008" against the barrel, to lower the left barrel. Both barrels print at the same elev, but 4" apart at 50 yds(not crossing).

--------------------
hippie redneck geezer

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Birdhunter50
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: xsheadspace]
      #110358 - 24/07/08 09:31 PM

Before I disassembled this gun and thinned the front spacer, I think I would load some 300 bullets and try them in it. You don't gain much in going from 300 up to 350 grains. 300's are enough for about any big game on this continent. The only time I would go with a heavy bullet would be to hunt big bears or American Bison. Those two, you want to hit with everything your gun can stand.
Bob H.

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DarylS
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #110366 - 24/07/08 11:11 PM

I have no idea how you can check a rifle's headspace with a straight-edge.
: Case web separation (3/8" above the rim) is caused by excessive headspace, with only one other possibilty.

: One way to get around an excessive headspace problem is to seat bullets out to contact the chamber's throat, thereby holding the case hard against the breech face when locked up. This usually works or helps in a bad situation.

: .005" is not much variance in headspace. Belted magnums can run up to .012" difference in headspace, from the same box of brass. This is just another reason why some belted magunms only last a few rounds before separating.

: Separations are a sign of excessive headspace or as suggested above (one other cause), continual stretching usually only with very sharply tapered cases which continue to stretch. Sooner or later, the brass separates at the point of it's movement - sometimes this is the web area - it all depends on case wall construction and heat treatment. If there is no excessive stretching of the brass with frequent trimming necessary, then the cause is excessive headspace.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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xsheadspace
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Reged: 09/07/08
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Loc: Upstate NY
Re: My 45-100 project [Re: DarylS]
      #110375 - 25/07/08 08:41 AM

A rimmed case headspace is defined as the distance from the back of the case to the breechblock. Since the barrels are tight to the face, and a cartridge has zero gap between the end of the barrel and the breech face, it has zero headspace. If there was headspace, wouldn't there be stretching at any pressure, not just max loads??

--------------------
hippie redneck geezer

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tinker
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: xsheadspace]
      #110380 - 25/07/08 10:32 AM

XS-

Can you close that rifle with a piece of binder paper sandwiched between the standing breech of the action and the breeches of the barrels?


--Tinker

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450_366
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: xsheadspace]
      #110492 - 27/07/08 02:09 AM

Hi!
Doesent those who shoot 45-120 get a realy long stretch when firing hot loads?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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xsheadspace
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Reged: 09/07/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Upstate NY
Re: My 45-100 project [Re: 450_366]
      #110612 - 28/07/08 11:38 PM

Don't know what binder paper is, but a piece of post-it note will stop the action from closing. I seem to remember reading something about the Thompson Center single shot action springing slightly with hot loads, and stretching cases. Got rained out this weekend for range testing. Holding my 350 gr loads to 2250 fps, and using 120 grit paper to take a hair off the muzzle spacer.

--------------------
hippie redneck geezer

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DarylS
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: xsheadspace]
      #110619 - 29/07/08 01:41 AM

The barrels might be a tight fit, but what about the distance between the back end of the case and the action face? If the rim cut is too deep, the ctg. will have excessive headspace. This has nothing to do with the action to barrels fit, but the chamber's dimensions and their relationship, ie: the case head fit to the standing breech.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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xausa
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: xsheadspace]
      #110624 - 29/07/08 02:21 AM

I assume that by using a straight edge to test headspace, you are saying that you placed a loaded round into the chamber and then used a straight edge to verify that the rear of the case was flush with the barrel. However, a loaded round might experience resistance to chambering all the way which might give the erroneous impression that the head of the case remained flush because the rim was engaging the bottom the the rim recess. By the same token, a fired case might have to be forced back into the chamber and would show the same resistance to chambering as a loaded round.

Actually, headspace in a rimmed cartridge is defined as the distance from the bottom of the rim recess to the face of the bolt, block, or action. Even if the mechanical headspace is correct for the rifle, use of a cartridge with an unusually thin rim will result in excessive actual headspace. When the firing pin falls on such a cartridge, the entire cartridge is forced forward until it meets resistance in the form of the bottom of the rim recess. When the powder charge ignites, the walls of the cartridge obturate and cling to the walls of the chamber, while the head of the case is forced rearward by the build up in pressure, causing the case walls directly in front of the solid web of the case, which does not obturate, to stretch, eventually after repeated firings resulting in a rupture.

The same phenomenon occurs with belted cases with excessive headspace, which have not been headspaced on the shoulder, rather than on the rim. It can also occur with a rimless cartridge, where the rifle's headspace is correct, but that of the loaded cartridges is insufficient.

I suggest pasting progressively thicker bits of paper to the bottom of resized cases, then trimming the paper to the exact shape of the cartridge rim and attempting to close the action on the chambered cartridges. Merely attempting to close the action on a sheet of paper is irrelevant.
Better still, make or obtain a proper set of headspace gauges and use them.

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xsheadspace
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Reged: 09/07/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Upstate NY
Re: My 45-100 project [Re: xausa]
      #110956 - 03/08/08 01:52 AM

The action will not close with a .004" piece of paper on the NEW empty case base. It will not close enough to trip the locking lever, so headspace is tight. Left barrel still printing about 3" to left of rt barrel, but the good news is it prints a tight group(1 1/2" at 50 yds with express sight, and 68 yr old eyeballs). I'm sticking to the no-stretch limit for max loads. My 350 gr load is 75 gr of 4064, and a win mag primer.

--------------------
hippie redneck geezer

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DarylS
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: xsheadspace]
      #110959 - 03/08/08 02:32 AM

Quote:

The action will not close with a .004" piece of paper on the NEW empty case base. It will not close enough to trip the locking lever, so headspace is tight. Left barrel still printing about 3" to left of rt barrel, but the good news is it prints a tight group(1 1/2" at 50 yds with express sight, and 68 yr old eyeballs). I'm sticking to the no-stretch limit for max loads. My 350 gr load is 75 gr of 4064, and a win mag primer.



I'm assuming you placed the .004" piece of paper across the rim of the ctg. only, not across the face of the barrels. .004" or tighter headspace should be just fine in this instance and should allow for some normal debris/dust in the field and still be able to close the action properly.
: Some have written about excessive stretching with heavy loads in the 3 1/4" 'Sharps' brass, but I've never heard of it nor experienced it with 2.6" cases. Too, I've been happy with loads in the 2,000fps range as about max.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Birdhunter50
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: xsheadspace]
      #110983 - 03/08/08 10:51 AM

xsheadspace,
Didn't you mention on another thread somewhere that you had releived the thoat of this gun so that it could accept longer bullets? That might be a contributing factor in your brass stretching.
Just a thought. Bob H.

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SharpsNitro
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: xsheadspace]
      #111630 - 12/08/08 02:30 PM

Interesting project, I've been following a similar path. I currently have a Ruger #1 being re-barreled to .45-2.6" for use in developing loads for a double in that chambering. My goal is to reproduce the .458win in a rimmed cartridge; the action I am using is very strong so it can handle the pressures. My measurements of the Starline cases indicate they should have similar durability to .45-70 cases. I should have the rifle in a week or two and will let you know how the brass holds up.

That being said, you should be careful about wildcatting a DR using shotgun frames. For what its worth, I was planning a conversion on an '80s Merkel 12ga and the math was not working out too well; using the proof mark data on the frame I was coming up with typical .45-70 capability. After talking to the head Merkel smith at the importer I abandoned the project; according to him, the shotgun frames of that era are not as heavily built as the DR frames.

Edited by SharpsNitro (12/08/08 03:12 PM)

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xausa
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #111654 - 13/08/08 01:14 AM

SharpsNitro,

Years ago I built a rimmed .450 Watts cartridge, using flanged .375 H&H Magnum cases. I tested the loads in a Winchester High Wall and then had Krieghoff make up a rifle chambered for the cartridge. However, since the only .375 flanged cases available at the time were Berdan primed Kynoch, I foolishly parted with the rifle, which I have regretted ever since.

I presently have a replacement being built in Germany. Using present day flanged .375 H&H cases, case forming and load development is a snap, and I'm looking forward to seeing it next month on a trip to Germany. Nothing like using a case designed for smokeless powder in the first place.

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DarylS
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #111655 - 13/08/08 01:15 AM

Modern .45/70 case have been stress tested to 70,000psi and litterally dropped from the chamber. This info coming from Brian Pierce in his article on the .45/70. Starline was the brass used, I assume from the article. The strength, ie: head dimensions, etc, will be the same on your 2.6" brass. Be careful on brass neck thickness, though as it may be a bit thick, if shortened from 3 1/4" brass. You may have to turn cases, maybe not.
: SharpsNitro - I'd have no problems whatsoever with your project. l've loaded .45/70's in both Siamese Mausers and Ruger #1's to the same velocities as my .458 2", ie; 400gr. at 2,200fps and 510gr. Solids to 2,060fps with no outward pressure indications. The 2,060fps matches .458 WinMag velocities actually chronographed by Speer in a Ruger, way back in the 70's ro 80's. Obviously, the .458 was being downloaded, even at that time. You should easily make 2,150fps in your 2.6" case - probably 2,200fps with today's more modern powders.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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SharpsNitro
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: DarylS]
      #111705 - 13/08/08 10:50 AM

xausa,

I appreciate the comments. The modern .45-70 cases are a long way from the old ballon head designs. That said, if I can't get decent case life I can easily ream out to a higher volume .45; besides, as long as you're not doing something dangerous, it's fun to tinker.



Daryl_S,

Thanks for the feedback. My goal with the project is to replicate the performance of the 450NE & 470NE in a package that is more affordable to shoot and also to eliminate some of the hassle that comes with all of that excess case capacity. We'll see how the idea turns out; I started short so if I need to I can ream the chamber out to .45-2.8 or 450NE.

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DarylS
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Re: My 45-100 project [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #111770 - 14/08/08 12:22 AM

Another possibility, one I was surprised the more adverturous didn't persure, is my rendition of the .458 Alaskan. This is none other than the .450 Alaskan (.348 blown out and necked) with the rim turned off to .532"(magnum bolt face), extractor groove cut and chambered in a Mauser, Rem or WW M70 as I did. The case capacity is roughly 4 gr. greater than the WW.458 mag. and 2,200fps is easily achieved with 500gr. bullets.

It only takes about 15 seconds to alter a case. Left with the rim intact, it's a rimmed case for a single shot, same extractor/ejector as a .45/70. Turned into a slight rebated rim as in the photo, it uses a magnum extractor/ejector.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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