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Nakihunter
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What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double?
      #108854 - 03/07/08 08:18 PM

This site is rocking again!
What should I buy as my FIRST Double Rifle?
You may choose only one
Should I buy a new DR like Searcy, Hyme, Chapuis, Merkel?
Should I buy a used British DR like Webley, Wilkes, Hollis, etc.?


Votes accepted from (03/07/08 12:00 PM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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tarawa
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #108856 - 03/07/08 09:16 PM

I ask the same question to myself.

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Life is for Service

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tinker
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand doubl [Re: Nakihunter]
      #108881 - 04/07/08 01:48 AM

Nakihunter-

The answer has to be qualified.

I can't say yes or no, unless I know who it is I'm talking to and what they're all about.

If you'd been raised, or raised yourself with a great and rich understanding of fine guns, their care, feeding, handling, and value...
If you were clearly competent to judge a piece of metal, forgings, weldments, mechanisms, finishes - as well as wood and woodworking, repair, stockmaking, gunstock finishes and fitting...
If you were already an exceptional marksman, handloader, wildcatter, bullet maker, gunsmith...
If you already Really, Really knew the potential issues around double rifles in respect to regulation and shooting/developing loads 'on the way' to successfully making ammunition for a double rifle...


and

if either you just couldn't afford a new one and wanted a challenging project - and could find a good candidate as a first double rifle/neat vintage rifle that needs help, is within your scope of capability, and you can afford...
(good luck to you in today's market!)

or you understand the value of the fine old collectible guns, can afford a solid runner with known good regulation, from a reputable source who would agree to a reasonable inspection period in the hands of a real-ass gunbuilder like JJ at Champlin Arms, and know you're capable of caring for it properly - so as not to risk losing a ton of cash while you're at it...

Go ahead on the neat old used guns!


Otherwise, I'm going to spread the advice of those much more experienced than myself in the collecting and use of double rifles and say 'Buy new!'

A new rifle from a good maker, sold through a good dealer and covered by a maker's guarantee, backed by your local dealer is the way to go.
Double rifles are so neat, so wonderful -- and can be such a frustrating bitch.
Expensive ones at that.
It's important to really freakin understand what you're getting into and either qualify for yourself that you're taking a big risk - and possibly losing the mystique and possible love affair with double rifles or just buy a solid new one and get out in the field and hunt out into the sunset...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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hoppdoc
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand doubl [Re: tinker]
      #108897 - 04/07/08 06:11 AM

Upon reflection, I think I would do it differently.

I bought a used Merkel 470 first and traded up to a 500 Merkel.I still have just one Double!!

I think I would have enjoyed everything a bit more and do alot more shooting with a used 9.3x74R Double with a qd scope.More practice and more fun!! It would be good on pigs and take everything in the states with confidence except maybe ??big bear.Probably handle that with no problem as well.The cost and weight would be substantially less than a big Double as well!!

Yup, you can't have too many Doubles.Barring Merkel or Chapuis coming out with a 450/400 my next Double may well be a 9.3x74R!!

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand doubl [Re: hoppdoc]
      #108916 - 04/07/08 12:01 PM

The 9.3x74R is an excellent choice. It used to be a well kept secret, but the cat is out of the bag now. They have become hard to find in a great condition pre-WW2 vintage continental rifle. That's a shame. I would like to own several more.

It's incredible how easy they are to load for now. Just 10 years ago the components were difficult to get on a regular basis.

I'm quite a fan of a 9.3x74R.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand doubl [Re: CptCurl]
      #108917 - 04/07/08 12:02 PM

P.S.

There's no reason to back down from one of the large bear species if you have a 9.3x74R in your hands.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand doubl [Re: tinker]
      #108930 - 04/07/08 04:42 PM

Quote:


The answer has to be qualified.




Simple answer for me.

If you can afford a vintage double that will fulfill the shooting requirements for you within your budget I would go for the vintage double rifle.

If the price of suitable ones is out of reach, a good suitable modern double rifle.

They aren't making any more vintage doubles so snap one up if you can. Also many are being tied up into large collections so the supply dried up considerably in the last few years. Good investments if bought at a reasonable price so they will hold their value and possibly increase.

Modern doubles however make very good usable rifles.

A "second hand" modern DR can be a good buy though too if a discount can be achieved.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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tinker
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand doubl [Re: NitroX]
      #108940 - 04/07/08 05:51 PM

Furthermore, on used guns...

There are some really fantastic deals out there on High Grade European double rifles.
Here are some really nice looking rifles that I would absolutely love to get out in the field on a hunt.

While sniffing around tonight I saw a really sweet O/U 9.3x74r with 30mm rings on proper claw mounts...



The rifle is offered by Thad Scott on GunsInternational for just under 7kUSD


This Sauer 450 BPE is awfully cool.



It's listed by doublegunhq on the
GunsInternational site too, at a similar price as the belgian above.
Note the features on this thing though. Those barrels are octagons to the muzzles, flip aperture in the wrist, they're even bold enough to show a target from regulation attempts elsewhere in the ad.
Cool!


This Chapuis 7mm BLE isn't really what I'd call High-Grade, but it's from the 70's(at least nicer looking than today's Chapuis utility grade guns), it's set up with rings and bases, and it's being offered for just under 5kUSD!
Note it's also being shown with regulation target.



Here's the link to it's DoublegunHQ listing on the web.

For those of you thinking of used doubles, it looks like there are some neat rifles out there lately, high quality rifles at pretty low prices.
The stuff here is priced similarly to some of the lower priced new product available today, but these few little quickies show character, features, and quality that you'll have to pay much more to get with a new rifle.
There could be headaches on the way to true bliss too, especially with that Sauer, but I'd so much love the opportunity to sift through it's issues, then get it out for a winter bear hunt!

I think it pays to do a little sniffing around.
These came from fifteen or twenty minutes of almost random searching on the www


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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4seventy
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #108948 - 04/07/08 08:41 PM

If you are just after a double as a shooter, buy a new gun.
If you're into old iron buy an oldie.
There is something very special about the look, feel, and smell of vintage rifles, and especially vintage doubles!

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Ripp
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: 4seventy]
      #108960 - 04/07/08 11:59 PM

Quote:

If you are just after a double as a shooter, buy a new gun.
If you're into old iron buy an oldie.
There is something very special about the look, feel, and smell of vintage rifles, and especially vintage doubles!




Totally agree, if you can justify and afford the older ones, IMHO, there is no comparison..however, having used both and owned both, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the new ones either..looked at a 450/400 Heym recently...nice looking weapon..

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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rigbymauser
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: Ripp]
      #109037 - 05/07/08 04:52 PM

I voted for the vintage kinds. I really have it with new guns...the are fun the first days, then the news gets "faded out" so to speak, but buying an old vintage rifle, and every day I feel like its a new gun, and I just have to look at it. New guns is not for me anymore..except for a custom creation.

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beleg2
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #109052 - 05/07/08 10:58 PM

I voted for a new one because I preffer to have someone to talk to if the rifle do not regulate or it have any problem.
With a used rifle you have not much options.
Thanks.
Martin

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Bill_Cooley
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: beleg2]
      #109086 - 06/07/08 10:51 AM

Many good points have been made. I will suggest (because I don’t know your level of expertise) you by a current production rifle. The advantages are you can have it fitted to you. This is important in helping you to shoot it well and helps reduce felt recoil. I don’t know what you are planning to hunt but I would start with a 9.3X74R unless you are jumping right in on the big 5. (I would recomend the .470 for a starter on the big 5.) The reason, you can shoot it on anything and become more profiting. When you decide you want a different rifle you will have a solid rifle you can get your money out of. The important thing when buying a new production rifle are the basics, you get modern steel, no oil soaked wood, no regulation problems ammo readily available.
Bill

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szihn
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #109088 - 06/07/08 11:32 AM

To answer the original question;

YES!

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livinus
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: szihn]
      #109089 - 06/07/08 11:57 AM

.
Dear Nakihunter,
If you buy new, you pay what you get(and then, Sabattis are among the cheapest but nearly always the most accurate doubles). If you buy used, better be certain about your knowledge to see a fraud. I think doubles are a snob game these day's. I never paid more than 2500 dollar for a double, and that includes a Chapuis 9.3, a Krieghoff .458, a Westley Richards .450NE, a Pire 9.3 ...(all in new condition)
Livinus

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Ripp
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: livinus]
      #109142 - 07/07/08 09:16 AM

Quote:

.
Dear Nakihunter,
If you buy new, you pay what you get(and then, Sabattis are among the cheapest but nearly always the most accurate doubles). If you buy used, better be certain about your knowledge to see a fraud. I think doubles are a snob game these day's. I never paid more than 2500 dollar for a double, and that includes a Chapuis 9.3, a Krieghoff .458, a Westley Richards .450NE, a Pire 9.3 ...(all in new condition)
Livinus




If you want to double (no pun intended) your money on some of those doubles let me know...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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DUGABOY1
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: 4seventy]
      #109214 - 08/07/08 03:55 AM

Quote:

If you are just after a double as a shooter, buy a new gun.
If you're into old iron buy an oldie.
There is something very special about the look, feel, and smell of vintage rifles, and especially vintage doubles!



The key to success here is, as mentioned above, is if YOU are QULIFIED and you want an old double rifle, then I agree with you. If the buyer is a first time buyer of a double rifle, it is my opinion, that most are NOT qualified enough to make a great buy on a ventage double rifle without a great deal of luck. Addtionally, the first time buyer of a double rifle is rarely informed about the problems that come with the care and feeding of a double rifle, and may soon find he did not make the right choice! In that case he is likely to want to rid himself of what he finds, in his opinion, is that a double rifle is not a well designed system, because he can't make it shoot. NOW! If he has bought a DOG of an old rifle, he will not be able to get his money back unless he can find another un-informed sucker to sell the thing to.

For a guy NEW to double rifles, I reccmend he buy new, and a smaller chambering that he will be able to shoot a lot, and if he decides he is not really a double rifle man, then the rifle is easy to sell, and that sale doesn't have to indicate a loss, because with the popularity of doubles today, even the new ones are increasing in price daily! I have a 9.3X74R Merkel that I paid $4600 usd for new 5 yrs ago, and the same rifle (140E) sells for $8K today easily, because that rifle is no longer imported into the USA, and the Euro/Dollar exchange. I have two Merkel double rifles, and several old Britts, and not one of the Britts shoots better, or anymore dependable than the Merkels!

I agree with your last line indicating a "IF THIS RIFLE COULD TALK" mystque of the old doubles, but thay aren't any better than the new ones from a use perspective!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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ChrisPer
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #109246 - 08/07/08 12:41 PM

Well, I had a rush of blood to the head and bought the first double I saw offered for sale near my home at a price I could almost afford. I started from the general principle that any shootable BPE is worth $2K...



I am NOW learning the faults they could have, and not looking forward to identifying which faults in mine I just didn't see, in my wild overenthusiasm. I had already some idea about obsolete cartridges from my Mannlicher 1910, fortunately, so I am not worried about that part.

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tinker
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand doubl [Re: ChrisPer]
      #109253 - 08/07/08 02:40 PM

Chris-


I wholeheartedly congratulate you on your purchase of whatever the hell you've got coming!!

I'll be here for continued support, advice (gleaned from my own mistakes), and references to the local loonie-bin for when you're clinging at your wit's very end.

Can't wait to see the photos!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Nakihunter
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: ChrisPer]
      #109255 - 08/07/08 02:56 PM

Quote:

.... I had already some idea about obsolete cartridges from my Mannlicher 1910, fortunately, so I am not worried about that part.



To digress from the thread....Your Mannlicher Schoenauer 1910 (9.5X57MS) is not totally obsolete. You can get dies from Dave Davison at [dave@ch4d.com]. You can get either re-formed or correctly head stamped Horneber brass from www.reedsammo.com. You can also get re-formed cases from Buffalo arms at bufarms5@nctv.com. They also sell the Ch4D dies - normal price USD 79 + shipping & the cases were USD 64 for 50.

Good luck with your Black Powder double.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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ChrisPer
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Re: What should I buy as my first - new or second hand double? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #109258 - 08/07/08 04:08 PM

Thanks for the encouragement, guys! I will start a thread when I take possession in a few days.

Nakihunter, thanks for the contact, I special-ordered RCBS form and loading dies from Huntingdon's website and they were fine. We should start a special M-S reference thread, I think!

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