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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Why Winchester choose .277" ?
      #108661 - 01/07/08 12:10 PM

I post this on another forum but I would want to know your oppinion:

Do anyone know why Winchester decide to use a .277" bullet when a 7mm was easier?
I have the theory that Winchester do not want to copy the 7x64mm......
Also I was told that they took the idea from the 6,8x57mm Chinese

RWS and Roth made ammo for the 6,8x57mm but could not find any info about Winchester.

Thanks
Martin


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RLI
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Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 534
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Why Winchester choose .277" ? [Re: beleg2]
      #108670 - 01/07/08 01:41 PM

A good question but I think it had to do with reaching 3000fps with the powders of the day in a 30/06 case also I believe the Pedersen Device may have used a .276-.277" bullet in some of the proto-types and this may have influenced Winchester,
and just normal cartrige development may have been the answer.

I also have wondered why H&H went to .308" with their .300 H&H Magnum when the British were using the .311-.312" in the .303British cartridge and I do not think the British had any other ..308" cartridges.
Steve

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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Anonymous
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Re: Why Winchester choose .277" ? [Re: RLI]
      #108672 - 01/07/08 02:24 PM

I thought it was to do with the Pommy army's rifle trials pre the 1914 debacle. (280 Ross etc)

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RLI
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Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 534
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Why Winchester choose .277" ? [Re: Anonymous]
      #108676 - 01/07/08 03:50 PM

I believe the British looked at the 7mm calibre for the P13, also I believe Winchester wanted something to match or better the Savage .250/3000.

steve

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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Anonymous
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Re: Why Winchester choose .277" ? [Re: RLI]
      #108685 - 01/07/08 08:54 PM

Winnie didn't need to "match" the Savage 250, my take is that they took on the results of those trials with those of the "most efficient" long range (plunge fire effectiveness) calibres for military engagements.

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Why Winchester choose .277" ? [Re: Anonymous]
      #108686 - 01/07/08 09:29 PM

RLI,
Why H&H choose the .308"? Good point!!!

Martin


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Why Winchester choose .277" ? [Re: RLI]
      #108707 - 02/07/08 05:12 AM

The Pedersen Device used a .308 caliber bullet in a rimless case much like the .32 S&W long. You are probably thinking of the .276 Pederson, a cartridge developed by the same J. D. Pederson who invented the Pedersen Device. It was, however, a genuine 7mm cartridge, using .284" diameter bullets. The .276 reference was to the bore diameter.

At the time Winchester first offered the .270 there were two other cartridges then in existance, the .256 Newton, a 6.5mm cartridge based on a slightly shortened .30-'06 case, and the 7X64 Brenneke, a cartridge almost identical to the .280 Remington.

Possibly because of accidents caused by firing WW I 8X57 ammunition in Winchester Model 95's chambered for the .30-'06 cartridge, Winchester seems to be overly concerned with the possibility of firing the wrong ammunition in one of its rifles. The .256 Newton could be fired in the .270 with no harmful effects, except to accuracy. The .270 could be fired in a 7X64 rifle, again with no harm, except to accuracy. Winchester may have simply wanted to avoid the "millimeter" designation, which seems to be the kiss of death to American cartridge nomenclature (with the glaring exception of the 7mm Remington Magnum.)

This is probably the explanation for Winchester's decision to market its own design of .30 caliber magnum cartridge, the .300 Winchester Magnum, instead of using the obvious choice of the .30-.338, a cartridge which came into being shortly after the introduction of the Winchester Magnum trio of .264, .338 and .458, all based on the .375 H&H Magnum case shortened to 2.5" to function in a standard length action. Winchester's thinking was possibly that they didn't want their ammunition in use in combination with a wildcat chamber (one which was similar enough to the obsolete .30 Newton that it was sometimes referred to as the .30 Belted Newton). Whatever the reason, the success of the .300 Winchester Magnum soon eclipsed that of the .30-.338 and it's sister, the .308 Norma Magnum.

Unlike Remington, which actually chambered 40X target rifles in .30-.338, Winchester has never embraced wildcat cartridges. Rather than adopt the original version of the .220 Swift, known as the Wotkins Original Swift, made by necking down the .250 Savage case to .22, Winchester chose to neck down the 6mm Lee Navy case and create an entirely new cartridge, which would not fit any existing chamber.

Remington has never hesitated to embrace cartridges Not Invented Here, as its lineup of .22-.250, .257 Roberts, .25-'06 Remington, .260 Remington, 7mm-08 and .35 Whelen all attest. It's just a different philosophy.


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Why Winchester choose .277" ? [Re: xausa]
      #108708 - 02/07/08 05:58 AM

Quote:

This is probably the explanation for Winchester's decision to market its own design of .30 caliber magnum cartridge, the .300 Winchester Magnum, instead of using the obvious choice of the .30-.338,




Many people believe Winchester wanted a little more powder capacity, and so moved the shoulder forward. As a result, the 300 Win Mag has a slight edge in speed over the 30-338.

Quote:

Unlike Remington, which actually chambered 40X target rifles in .30-.338,




I would like to know more about this. The 40X actions I have owned were too short to eject a loaded round of 30-338 ammunition (although a fired case might clear). Did they remove the bolt to withdraw loaded cartridges? Or, was there a longer 40x action?

Take care, Tom


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Why Winchester choose .277" ? [Re: Tatume]
      #108710 - 02/07/08 06:01 AM

My recollection is that the bolt had to be removed to eject a loaded cartridge. As far as I know, there was never more than one length (722 size) 40X centerfire action.

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