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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Robgunbuilder
.275 member


Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 64
Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore
      #10782 - 03/03/04 02:49 PM

I just ordered a throating reamer for my Encore .405 winchester barrel.This throater will produce a .4117 parrell throat out to .5 inches from the end of the case which has a diameter of .436. The throater will have some freebore and then go straight for .400 at .4117, creating a very parrellel throat, which should help accuracy.. I should then be able to seat 400 gr woodleighs out another .250 and gain considerable powder capacity. To date in a 24 inch barrel I have hit 1925 fps with 52 grs of ww 748 and a 400 gr woodleigh. My goal is 2100 fps plus with the same bullet. I am operating at about 53Kpsi and the cases look and extract just fine. This should duplicate the famous 450/400 loads in a take down gun. My plan is to use it in Africa along with a 270 Win barrel for an inconspicuous travel system suitable for Impala to Cape Buff! The allure of a big Bore single shot is definately effecting me. -Rob

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #10783 - 03/03/04 02:52 PM

R, that's interesting I'd have thought that Re 7 would be a better powder because of the limited powder capacity. Oh well, what do I know.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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Robgunbuilder
.275 member


Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 64
Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: 475Guy]
      #10788 - 03/03/04 03:21 PM

475Guy- I tried Rl-7 and pressures were too high. The best powders appear to be ww748 and H335. all in the 52-55gr range. Basically this cartridge needs more powder capacity. I would absolutely not use these loads in a lever gun, even a modern 1895 win in .405! The Encore is extremely strong and can take 65Kpsi cartridges with the same rim diameter as the .405 win, so I'm comfortable pushing it. -Rob

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Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #10823 - 04/03/04 04:26 AM

Robert,

Good luck in your quest. I have been to 2160 fps with a 400gr pill in a 405 Win, M1895 lever action. It can be done. By the way, the M1895 is a very strong lever action. I personally would not feed the rifle a steady diet of such loads, since they are around 66000 psi. However, aside from some stretch (~ 0.007") there was nothing to report from these loads. By the way, rear locking actions ALWAYS produce far more case stretch than a front locking action. A FAL will stretch the brass far more than a M700 Remington will, but the failure mode of an overpressure load is still the same for BOTH rifles, that being blown primers and 0.008"+ case head expansion. I have seen 270 Win chambered M1895 exhibit ~0.007" case stretch as well shooting factory loaded ammunition.

By the way, I know a trick that will get you ~ 3 grains more case capacity out of your Hornady 405 Win brass.

Your long throat will help you out immensely. I think you should heed 475guy's advise though, and use Rel7 after you get the throat worked out, that is.

Scott

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Rick_R
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Reged: 03/07/03
Posts: 117
Loc: WV, USA
Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #10830 - 04/03/04 04:58 AM

Found it!

I've tried W748 and the velocity spread seemed to be as much as 100fps from shot to shot. I've pretty much settled on Varget and the 400gr Woodleigh loaded out to 3.3" seated in the cannelure. A full case gives me 2,050fps and no pressure signs. Not really sure how far out I can seat them before I run into the lands, accuracy was so good I just stopped there and quit trying to fix it.

That Encore probably kicks a mite with a 400gr @ 2,100fps load.

Keep us abreast with your findings.

Rick

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Rick_R]
      #10842 - 04/03/04 08:41 AM

That should make a nice rifle, but have you considered using the 450-400 case necked down to the 405...that should give you 2200 and never blind an eye in a No.1 Ruger, if the 450-400 will clean out the 405 chamber???.

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Rick_R
.300 member


Reged: 03/07/03
Posts: 117
Loc: WV, USA
Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: atkinson6]
      #10847 - 04/03/04 09:14 AM

Ray,

If I were to do it over again I'd probably use something like the .450/416 you described elsewhere just for the bullet availabillity.

I believe that the .450/400 reamer would clean out the .405 chamber, but I've got enough .405 Win. brass to last a while, the light loads in .405 are fun and the only problem is finding adequate .411" bullets. Wonder how the Hornady 300gr .411" bullets for the .405 Win. would do in the 450/400 as a "varmint load"?

When I decide to get a real DGR it'll probably be a .416 Rem in a bolt gun (see I been paying attention ).

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Rick_R]
      #10857 - 04/03/04 09:59 AM

Be carefull with that H-335. It's a very temperature sensitive powder. Nice comfortable accurate load developed in 50 to 60 degree weather will stick bolts, pierce primers and loosen primer pockets at 85 degrees.

It's my favorite powder for cold weather 22-250 loads.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: DoubleD]
      #10862 - 04/03/04 11:33 AM

Practically all of the ball powders are very temperature sensitive. He'll figure that out though, sooner or later.

Scott

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Robgunbuilder
.275 member


Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 64
Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: ScottS]
      #10869 - 04/03/04 03:24 PM

I talked to Mike Bellm and Virgin Valley Custom today about this approach and they both agreed that 55Kpsi should present no problem to an Encore. The cases will stretch a little as the frame flexes under pressure and that makes reloading more than a few times very challenging! Mike and I had a nice discussion on throater design and I'm definately on the right track. Cases will stretch, but so what, I plan to reload them once or twice and discard them anyway. RickR your Varget load seems interesting and I'm sure that loading the woodleighs out another .250 and crimping into a new Cannelure should get me the desired 2100fps. The Encore is a neat gun, I've hunted red stag in NZ with one and they are light, inconspicuous guns . Perfect while travelling. With a 12 Ga barrel, a 270 win and a long throat 405, you could hunt anything anywhere! I plan to add a few Mercury recoil reducers and a brake to this one, to tame it a bit! Accuracy with WW748 is MOA at 100 yrds , but I'm always willing to try different powders.
Ray, I have given some thought to a rechamber to 450/400, but if I can do the same thing with a .405 win why invest in a new chamber reamer. Both Mike Bellm and VVCG strongly advised against using 55Kpsi loads in a modern M1985. Your asking for trouble!-Rob

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Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #10896 - 05/03/04 04:09 AM

Robert,

Please ask your "experts" to provide an explanation as to why a M1895 Winchester cannot handle a 55000 psi load with the 405 Winchester, but can handle a 62000 psi load just fine in 270 Winchester?

The thrust forces:

405 Winchester at:
55000 psi chamber pressure - 6570 pounds
62000 psi chamber pressure - 7407 pounds

270 Winchester at:
62000 psi chamber pressure - 7909 pounds

Looks like the 270 Winchester hands down beats the 405 Winchester in bolt thrust.

Simple really, the 270 Winchester has a base diameter of 0.473" compared to the 405 Winchester's 0.462".

Come on Robert, what are these so-called "experts" creditials, other than the desire to sell you a Encore/Contender barrel?

The physics, field experience of past production rifles, the manufacturers continued production, and my own experiences with the M1895 completely contradict your comments.

By the way, what are your creditials to qualify you as an expert on the structural integrity of a firearm action?

Not trolling gentlemen, I am sincerely interested in understanding the creditials of the individuals who are making these statements on the structural integrity of firearms.

Scott

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Re: Long throat .405 winchester (EDITED) [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #10901 - 05/03/04 04:45 AM

Robert,

Your load:

In reply to:

To date in a 24 inch barrel I have hit 1925 fps with 52 grs of ww 748 and a 400 gr woodleigh.



Is only in the 50,000 to 52,000 psi range. This ain't no high pressure load. To get a 400 gr pill going around 2150 fps in a 405 Winchester you are going to have to get to a pressure of 60000 psi +. The throating job is just to allow you to get a little more powder in. Still need to bump the pressure a bit though. In simple english it means you need a faster powder.

Let me lay it out for you.

W748 in the will hit about 51500 to 54000 psi in your new longer throat chamber with a powder charge of 60.5 grains. This is ~ 107% compressed load too.

Muzzle velocity for this load with 400 gr Woodleigh - 2000 to 2040 fps . Of course you can pre-heat your barrel to 180 F and probably get 2150 fps. Of course that assumes the rifle / case holds together long enough for the bullet to exit the barrel.

Good luck, and waiting on your creditials.

Scott

-EDIT- found a mistake in the simulation. The corrections are bold faced. Sorry about that.

Edited by ScottS (05/03/04 10:45 AM)

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Rick_R
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Reged: 03/07/03
Posts: 117
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Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #10931 - 05/03/04 12:14 PM

Rob,

I didn't need them but as part of my last order from Midway's Inventory Reduction section a box of 400gr Woodleigh Solids just landed on my doorstep courtesy of the Big Brown Truck.

They're a bit longer than the softs, nose is a different shape and the cannelure is in a totally different place reducing the already critical powder capacity.

Looks like a good opportunity to work up some loads. Off to the reloading room!

Rick

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Robgunbuilder
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Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 64
Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: ScottS]
      #10932 - 05/03/04 12:28 PM

ScottS-In the interest of keeping the peace here, please STOP replying to my posts on this forum and on AR. I am not interested in what you have to say because I know you don't have an adequate grasp of the fundamental science and mathematics relating to the calculation of safety factors related to how different firearm designs can handle high pressures. I see you finally ordered a copy of Quickload, but still haven't mastered it. Have you now earned a phony Ph.D. in Physics and /or metalurgy to go along with your phony MD.? Oh Yes, Scott, we know all about YOUR credentials. Make believe ones that is. Now be a good hermaphrodite and leave me alone. I see no one is responding to your stupid posts on AR anymore. Have you not learned anything from the fact that about ten thousand people consider you beneath their contempt?-Rob

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Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #10942 - 05/03/04 02:32 PM

I take it them Robert that you have NO creditials, with regard to being able to comment authoritatively on the structural integrity of a firearm action! Now there is a newsflash! Sorry to break this too you, but I knew that already. So do several others, I would think. My advise to you is to drop the "expert" act and simply speak from your own experience. You are FAR from the expert you think you are.

By the way, you stole my idea of the long throat on the 405 Win to increase the available case capacity. It is all well documented on www.accuratereloading.com. Just like a certain cartridge you seem very proud of.

With regard to not talking to you anymore, that is fine with me too.

Lastly, no not Quickload. Simply a proprietary program I put together. Helps if you have some creditials, like me, even though they did come from a Cracker Jack box.

Scott

Edited by ScottS (05/03/04 02:34 PM)

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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1408
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Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #10945 - 05/03/04 03:10 PM

Rob,

What do you feel IMR 4064 would do in the 24" barrel with the 400s? It has been a good powder for predictable pressures for me in the past, and would seem to like the 24" or longer barrel with a 400 gr or bigger.

Keep the rest of us posted as to your results of your undertaking.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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Robgunbuilder
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Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 64
Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: ScottS]
      #10946 - 05/03/04 03:14 PM

ScottS- Never claimed to be an EXPERT. I'm just a happy guy with lots of REAL GUNBUILDING Experience..17 Rem to .600 OK and beyond! Current experience is about 85 guns. A drop in the bucket for the big well known gunsmiths, but pretty good for an amateur! I know most of the real good gunsmith/achinists and they appreciate my work! Unlike you, who unfortunately have to pretend to be what your not. ie, SMART and experienced! I've proven multiple times before what my capabilities are and everyone here as well as on AR knows the FACTS. We have seen nothing from you except a .50 Beowulf you bought ( and of course lied about)and multiple pictures of guns you claim to own but were IN FACT STOLEN from others WEBSITES.!. Did I miss something Scott or are you a self admitted FRAUD! I have pictures of my work and the results: Scott what do you HAVE? Phony pictures stolen from others websites? As for the long throat .405 sorry chump but it was me who informed you( at your max embarresment factor)that your .405 loads were in the 67Kpsi range in a bloody browning M1985 . How dumb can you actually be for god sakes? In any event please don't respond to my posts and I'll do likewise. I have absolutely no use for you! BY the way, do these facts expose you for what you really are ( a liar) or what Scott? You Pathetic Moron!-Rob

Edited by Robgunbuilder (05/03/04 03:51 PM)

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Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: luv2safari]
      #10979 - 06/03/04 02:36 AM

L2S,

The problem with 4064 is that it's burn rate isn't significantly differnt than W748 and it has the added problem of being less dense. So you cannot fit as much of it into the case.

This topic has already been discussed to great length at www.accuratereloading.com. Follow this link to see much of that discussion (although it is not all).
405 Winchester Load Devlepment

Scott

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Rockfish
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Loc: Sneads Ferry, NC, USA...
Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: ScottS]
      #11205 - 09/03/04 02:47 AM

Rob... do you by chance have a throat reamer for 45 caliber... I have several 45-70 barrels for the Encore that need throated... sort of curious why you would want to go to all the trouble to get a .405 working in the Encore when you can slide on a 375H&H barrel... although I must admit the 405 thought has crossed my mind also...

--------------------
375 H&H... one world, one caliber...

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Robgunbuilder
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Reged: 18/02/04
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Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Rockfish]
      #11209 - 09/03/04 03:40 AM

Rockfish- Good question. I like .40 calibers and I like Encores. I've hunted Red Stag with one really enjoyed it. Yup a .375 H&H barrel will outperform the .405 Win, but it was simply the thrill of making something like this work that intriqued me. I have a long throat reamer for a Ruger #1 that I used on a .458 win to basically do the same thing. I have hit 2275 fps with that thing.-Rob

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atkinson6
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Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Rockfish]
      #11210 - 09/03/04 03:51 AM

I don't know Scotts but I have had some dealings with Robgunbuilder and he is the real thing..He is one fine gunsmith, and has hunted extensively...His credentials are impeccable...

Just wanted to clear that up...















..

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DaveJames
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Reged: 04/01/03
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Loc: Tidewater,Virginia
Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #11223 - 09/03/04 07:01 AM

After seeing some of the rifle Rob has built I just wish he would work on them for the rest of us

--------------------
"I am always willing to learn,but not always willing to be taught."
Sir Winston Churchill

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475Guy
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Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #11231 - 09/03/04 09:43 AM

Damn, R, 2200+! That's smokin'. I can guesstimate the OAL on that 45-70 to be almost as long as the 458 WinMag.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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Robgunbuilder
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Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 64
Re: Long throat .405 winchester in an Encore [Re: 475Guy]
      #11255 - 09/03/04 05:18 PM

Thanks for the nice comments guys! For every jerk there are about 100 neat guys who are fun to talk to and compare info. It's sometimes hard to tell who's who on the internet. I appreciate the nice comments Ray! Coming from you that means somethng! By the way I talked to Paul Zorn last week. He's in Florida right now!-Rob

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