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375RugerNo1
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Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for?
      #107788 - 21/06/08 04:47 AM

So the rules of the game are-
A-Pick any one .416 cal cartridge

B-State why you would pick this cartridge over the others.
-brass supply, available power, feeding issues, shorter barrel vs. longer barrel etc.

C-What type of gun would you purchase or chamber it in. Obviously my preference would be a Ruger No. 1. But don’t let that affect your choices.


Let me know what your thoughts are!
Pat

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Schamankungulo
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #107795 - 21/06/08 07:45 AM

Too easy ...

A) Taylor

B) Brass is readily available , it will do anything the others will do except the webby or a hot loaded Rigby .. But you dont need the extra oompphh , 2400 with a 400 grain boolit is a solid performer ..

I'll always have a soft spot for the Taylor , I was fortunate to have one of the first dozen or so built ..

C)

1)M98

2)CZ550

21.5"-22" Douglas No.5 contour

even tho' I hate plastic , probably one of McBros stocks

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375RugerNo1
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #107825 - 21/06/08 03:08 PM

Ha I'd have to agree on the "oompphh" part pretty zippy!!

Pat

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #107837 - 21/06/08 11:03 PM

I'd go with the Taylor on a M98 by Hartmann & Weiss !! But then again, seeing as 'rules are meant to be broken' I'd go with a .425 express!

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Will
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #107838 - 21/06/08 11:12 PM

Schamankungulo,

Here it is.




416 Taylor, CZ 550, 22" Douglas custom profile, McMillan stock, 7.5 lbs.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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pinotguy
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
      #107840 - 22/06/08 12:10 AM

Here's my choice:

A) I'd pick the 10.57 Meteor. This is the full-sized Lazzeroni .416.

B) While I am generally NOT a fan of needlessly over-powered cartridges, this is one that I've always been enamored with. I know it's proprietary and that makes brass more difficult to locate. Another important reason for me choosing this specific chambering is that it is not belted, something I definitely prefer.

C) I would go with a big Mauser 98 action - Prechtl, Recknagel, Dumoulin, etc. and a 24" bbl. It would definitely be a wood (English Walnut) and blued gun.

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szihn
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: pinotguy]
      #107844 - 22/06/08 12:55 AM

Not even a question in my mind.
Taylor!
The original 416 Rigby ballistics from about 90 years ago were perfectly good. The Taylor gives us the same bullets (or better) at the same velocity.
More velocity is not an advantage that I can see. The Taylor can be made to very nice standards on a M-98 Mauser, and it holds 3 in the mage with ease.
The rifles don't have the drop belly, which is something many love to look at, but I for one, like carrying the standard size mauser and mag much better than I do my larger rifles. Brass is cheap
Bullets are plentiful
The shell used cast bullets well.
It's cheap to shoot (and therefore practice with)
It does everything I would ever want or expect of a 416, and I have made much nicer rifles for a give budget with the Taylor than I can with larger and more expensive actions. If a man has a given budget, he gets nicer wood, more of the gunsmiths art, and more ammo for that budget with a Taylor.
If Ruger comes out with a "416 Ruger" I assume it would fill the bill as well, but as of this moment, I'd vote for the Taylor without any hesitation

Edited by szihn (22/06/08 01:05 AM)

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Bramble
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: szihn]
      #107857 - 22/06/08 04:13 AM

Yes the Taylor for all the reasons Szihn listed above.

But on the rules to be broken theme, my favourite .416 would be a .404 Jeffery.

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88MauSporter
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Bramble]
      #107873 - 22/06/08 07:05 AM

Ditto the .404 Jeff.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Marrakai
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #107886 - 22/06/08 11:13 AM

Taylor:
for all the reasons listed above, and the fact that I've owned one for a couple of decades and killed a lot of big game with it. It's a no-fuss perfect performer on bull buffalo.

M98 action of course, and .338 cases necked up, not .458s necked down. Almost unlimited case life if velocity is kept modest at 2300fps or slightly below.

410gr Woodleigh 'Weldcore' RNSN on buff and big boar, 400gr Taipans for the rest!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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bigmaxx
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Marrakai]
      #107892 - 22/06/08 01:25 PM

I would try to wait and see when the new .416 ruger materializes. It will likely be a .30-06 length case based on the .375 ruger. If its anywhere near as impressive as the .375 ruger it should be a contender.

--------------------
One day at a time...

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375RugerNo1
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: bigmaxx]
      #107898 - 22/06/08 02:23 PM

Wow, I'm going to have to check into the .416 Taylor!! I did not foresee this sort of response to that particular cartridge!!!

Pat

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Schamankungulo
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #107908 - 22/06/08 10:24 PM

Yes Will you rubbed it in at the other site , now you rub it in here ..

However since you refused my offer to trade the CZ Lott back for the litl beastie above , I'll keep the Lott ..

In a few months you'll want to sell this one too !!

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DarylS
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #107912 - 23/06/08 01:56 AM

I-too would pick the Taylor. Suitable for any game I'd hunt, anywhere.
: Brass is easy - any belted mag brass will do as long as it's 2.5" or longer.
: Easy loading, misery on powder for it's power and performance. Matches old-time Rigby ballistics which work.
: M98 Mauser bolt gun modified to close on chambered round. 22" barrel. Express sights with option to mount 2X scope. More is not necessary as I've used 2X on a variety of rifles for big game for years. Easy accuracy to 300 meters, which is further than I'll shoot at large game.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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xausa
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #107914 - 23/06/08 02:17 AM

No problem answering this one. I had my own wildcat .416 before the Taylor came out. I simply opened up the .300 Winchester Magnum case to .416 and had a P-14 Enfield barrelled to fit. It will do anything the Taylor will do and a tiny bit more. Easy brass availability, no problem duplicating .416 Rigby ballistics. I have a picture of it around somewhere I can forward to Dale to post. Very satisfying to shoot.

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Ripp
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: xausa]
      #107922 - 23/06/08 04:20 AM

I have no experience with the Taylor--however it sounds like an awesome cartridge. The .416 I do have quite a bit of experience with is the .416 Remington..so I am going against the grain on this one..but..I have used now on 4 hunts in Africa--have shot everything with it from steinbuck to buffalo, lion and elephant--with NO problems in any way shape or form..Actually have 2 guns in that caliber and might do a 3rd..

As to the high pressure problems I read on this site or mentioned occasionally elsewhere..have never experienced that as well and have hunted in weather up to 105 degree F...so not buying that argument either..

I guess what I found really interesting was that 3 of the 6 PH's I visited with in Zim just this year where shooting the .416 Remington...and as a backup at that...One PH in particular who does a lot of elephant hunting in both Zim and Botswana told me, personally he likes a cartridge at 2300 fps or a bit more for elephant..especially in Botswana,,,where genetically they are quite a bit larger than in Zim..or so he told me..Another PH who also uses one..used it for hippo anc croc as it was loaded in a Rem action and stated it was the most accurate gun in camp..so counting him..actually 4 of the 6 where using it..However all 3 PH's using the .416 Rem as their main rifle stated they used it for the same reasons mentioned in the Taylor..easy to reload, easy to find or make brass for and devastating effect on game..

Anxiously waiting for the .416 Ruger to show up..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (23/06/08 04:25 AM)

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Will
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Ripp]
      #108030 - 24/06/08 06:38 PM

The only reason that I could see to use the Taylor was it could save a bit of rifle weight by going with a smaller action, in my case the CZ 550 vs. the CZ 550 Magnum.

Yeah, the internet can be a source of all kinds of bad info, such as in the case of the 416 Rem. Mag. Have used it a lot in Africa and nary a problem. It feeds slick and has enough power for 99% of DG situations. And like you say, almost every PH and their dog is using one.

The other nice thing about the CZ 416 RM conversion is that it holds 5 down and 1 up. It weighs 8.9 lbs.



I had some drop floorplates made for my 416 Taylor so it holds 4 down. Almost as good as 5!



--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Paul
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
      #108031 - 24/06/08 06:54 PM

Sorry to vary the 'game' rules but does anyone have an opinion about the 500/.416 as chambered in the Heym double. What are the ballistics? Does anyone load it commercially?

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shinz
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Paul]
      #108037 - 24/06/08 09:00 PM

Norma are loading it in their African PH series of cartridges by the look of their latest catalogue, loading 450 gr Woodleighs, both soft & solid at 2100 fps, 4408 ft-lbs. I think it is also on their website as a PDF, I've got a paper catalogue to drool over.
Steve.

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Naren
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: shinz]
      #108076 - 25/06/08 05:14 AM

A - 416 Weatherby Magnum

B - Brass supply, killing power - velocity really makes all the difference (with premium bullets), you have to see it to belive - thats my experience. Much more destroyed tissue, much more penetration.

C - Mauser M98 only

As for the Norma PH ammo mentioned above - don`t know about the 500/416 NE but my friend bought 2 boxes of 458 Lott. 500 grain Woodleigh Weldcore and FMJ to test that ammo. It was crap. Seriously underloaded. It chronographed on averange between 1995 - 2010 f.p.s. from 21 inch barrel. I whould`nt shot an elephant with that. Now way. And many african PH have their 458 lott barrels cut to 20-21 inch. I don`t think they whould stop an elephant charge with this ammo if the shoting angle was less than perfect - dead PH...
Not that I am all into the oommpphh, but it is realy necessary... Don`t buy Norma PH ammo... and specially at that crazy price...

As for the 500/416NE - Wolfgang Romey loades this caliber for Krieghoff - balistics: Woodleigh 410 gr. Softpoint and FMJ. Velocity 2330 fps from a 25.5 inch barrel.

Edited by Naren (25/06/08 08:01 AM)

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shinz
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Naren]
      #108081 - 25/06/08 07:37 AM

I'm not sticking up for Norma, but ave. 2000 fps from a 21 inch barrel is probably very close to 2100 in a 24" barrel which is very likely what the load was chronographed in, their catalogue doesn't state this. As you say, why you'd want to fork out Norma's prices for their PH stuff is beyond me, I would think it would be no great trouble to load a 458 Lott to 2150-2200 from a 21" barrel with easy pressures. Their load for the 416/500 is for the 450 gr bullets, not sure what that would do for regulation, one would presume they've checked that in a Kreighoff to be sure.
Steve.

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Naren
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: shinz]
      #108082 - 25/06/08 08:05 AM

Well that is what I am trying to say - that ammo is seriosuly underloaded. I could reload a 458 lott and get 2200 fps easy with 21 inch barrel. For the money they(Norma) could sell something like a Hornady Heavy Magnum load like a 500 grain Woodleigh at 2400 fps with low pressure... They commercially produce powders so it shouldn`t be a problem for them to blend some super propellant... Especially they have lots of experience in powder industry...
But now they choose to sell underloaded ammo for a huge amount of money just because Kevin Robertson is on the box...
Geez it is just too weak for dangerous game... and costs a whole bag of money.

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dale
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Naren]
      #108083 - 25/06/08 08:45 AM

Xausa's photos:

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shinz
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Naren]
      #108120 - 25/06/08 01:55 PM

I've not stated my preference, which would be for a 416 Taylor as Schamankungulo stated & Will so obligingly illustrated for exactly the reasons given. I've had a 416 Rigby on a ZKK602 action & felt it was "enough gun", if Naren fells the need for more a 416 Rigby is a more practical alternative to a 416 Wby, it is possible to load the Rigby to Wby pressures & velocity or all but, after all, what is the Wby case but a slightly improved belted Rigby case, my first Rigby cases were 378 Wby cases with the belt turned off & run thru a custom Peter Davenport full length die with a tapered expander. Although I've not compared them, I'd wager the Rigby cases will feed smoother than the Wby cases or with less work & I seriously doubt that Wby brass is any easier to get than Rigby brass nowadays, at least in my neck of the woods, still whatever floats yer kilt STS Its all part of what makes it so much fun & I'm the first to admit I'm probably scared to pull the trigger on full house Wby loads.
Will, seeing as Norma so under load their PH rounds or so it seems, what would you consider a reasonable aim for the 450gr Woodleigh in a 416 Rem & is the Double Tap ammo loading of the same bullet in 416 Taylor at 2250fps likely to be realistic or a bit OTT?
Steve

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Naren]
      #108146 - 25/06/08 07:01 PM

Quote:

Geez it is just too weak for dangerous game...


110 years of experience would seem to suggest otherwise

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shinz
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: xausa]
      #108149 - 25/06/08 07:42 PM

Quote:

No problem answering this one. I had my own wildcat .416 before the Taylor came out. I simply opened up the .300 Winchester Magnum case to .416 and had a P-14 Enfield barrelled to fit. It will do anything the Taylor will do and a tiny bit more. Easy brass availability, no problem duplicating .416 Rigby ballistics. I have a picture of it around somewhere I can forward to Dale to post. Very satisfying to shoot.



Xausa, very nice, gives me some inspiration for the P14 action I have squirreled away, specially like the bolt handle, one of the nicest I've seen on an Enfield. I probably still stay with the Taylor, but, what is your case length as loaded? I assume it shortens the 300 Win case slightly. Do you need to neck ream where the shoulder becomes the neck? & are the other dimensions the same as for the 300 Win? COAL ? Thanks.
Steve

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xausa
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: shinz]
      #108243 - 27/06/08 05:42 AM

The bolt handle is the work of my late lamented gunsmith friend and partner, Harry Creighton, who was a real artist in altering bolts. His Mausers, Enfields and Springfields bear a more than casual resemblance to pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters. I know of no one presently who does them as well.

Cartridge case length and over all length are the same as the .300 Winchester Magnum, 2.620" and 3.340", although the fired cases I measured were all but one over the 2.620" trim to length. A .416 bullet slides easily into the mouth of a fired case, so there seems to be no "dreaded doughnut" where the original neck was expanded. I can't remember for sure, but I believe there was no special reamer used to chamber the rifle. I believe we just used the .300 Winchester Magnum reamer with a .408" pilot to form the chamber body and then used a neck and throat reamer to cut the rest.

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shrike
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #108283 - 27/06/08 01:48 PM

For African use the .416 Rigby is the best choice.
Its balistics of a 400 grainer @ 2400 fps, a perfect choice for deep penetration without bullet distortion.
Low pressure and long tapered case will contribute to easy feeding and extraction, critical in any DGR.
Rifle a Johanson or Empire DGR.

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shinz
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: xausa]
      #108304 - 27/06/08 06:04 PM

Thanks Xausa, for that, sorry to all for taking the thread away from the subject a bit. I like the idea of two reamers the way you've described it, gives me another string to my bow as it were. I guess that what you have there is just a 416 version of the 425 express that was mentioned above.
Steve.

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Will
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: shinz]
      #108311 - 27/06/08 08:52 PM

Shinz,

I can get 2400 fps with a 400 gr. bullet in the Taylor but I can't get the bullet seated down to the cannalure. As such, the bullet sticks out of the case a bit, but it doesn't matter. As the rifle recoils, the bullets hit the front of the magazine box and hence the bullet isn't going anywhere since the powder is quite compressed to begin with.

There is a simple way of estimating bullet velocities for different bullet weights. I have never seen it "published" anywhere but it will get you in the ball park.

Making the assumption that the cartridge case holds so much energy the muzzle energy of different weight bullets will be approximately the same. The heavier the bullet the less powder is typically used, but for estimating velocities one can assume the same powder charge and hence the same amount of chemical energy.

In the csse of a 400 gr. bullet in the 416 Rem. at 2400 fps, the vel. of a 450 gr. bullet is found from equating muzzle energies,

(400)(2400)^2 = (450)(V)^2

V = 2262 fps.

Hence, I would expect to get about 2250 fps for a 450 gr. bullet in the 416 RM.

If you do this for the loads in a reloading manual or in the ammo manufacturer's catalogs you will see this to be true.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Will
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: shinz]
      #108314 - 27/06/08 08:59 PM

Quote:

Norma are loading it in their African PH series of cartridges by the look of their latest catalogue, loading 450 gr Woodleighs, both soft & solid at 2100 fps, 4408 ft-lbs. I think it is also on their website as a PDF, I've got a paper catalogue to drool over.
Steve.



As you can see from my above post the Norma ammo, if the 450 gr. bullet is exiting at only 2100 fps, is seriously weak.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Will
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
      #108316 - 27/06/08 09:09 PM

Actually the Norma sight shows 2150 fps, but it is still under loaded.

I usually do like sniping, but I think this another case of taking the advice of hunters that pretend to be scientist types. In this case the worst of the worst. Not to mention names, but ...

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Schamankungulo
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
      #108358 - 28/06/08 08:53 AM

I have a program that figures that Will , you enter the powder charge and bullet weight and velocity of the known specimen then enter the powder charge and bullet weight of the other , it figures the velocity based on both loads creating the same pressure ..

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shinz
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
      #108402 - 28/06/08 06:07 PM

Quote:

Actually the Norma sight shows 2150 fps, but it is still under loaded.




My slip up on that one, I was thinking in terms of the 458 Lott which was being discussed on another thread & that was at 2100fps, which also seemed a bit wimpy to me & its not even a 550 gr like the 450 Rigby. Oh hell, there I go digressing again. I like the sound of your loads heaps better Will.
Steve.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: shinz]
      #108406 - 28/06/08 09:29 PM

If you want standard length cartridges/standard length actions then forum member Ripp's desire for a 416 Ruger wildcat would be perfect and give plenty of velocity at lower pressures than other standard length wilcats.

For the 110-120 degree African heat I would prefer the 416 Rigby with lower pressures, otherwise the 416 remington or a 375 Ruger wildcated to 416 should do just fine.Just my personal approach from havingsome overly hot handloads lock up some of my bolts(from my previous max velocity days)--not good!!!

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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shinz
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #108408 - 28/06/08 10:28 PM

Having previously owned a 416 Rigby, I agree with you as far as that goes. Some of my reasoning in going for the Taylor is that I already have a lot of the bits I need to complete it barring a barrel,& dies etc will be cheaper for the Taylor than another Rigby, being aware of the forthcoming (?) 416 Ruger, I figure that a Ruger chamber should clean up a Taylor chamber but not a Remington one without setting back the barrel so in the short term the Taylor gets my nod, with a Ruger if &/or when they get more common & popular. I believe that careful load development with the correct choice of powders should nullify the pressure concerns that the Rigby was designed to address. 75grs of ADI2208/Varget behind a 400 gr bullet should see me right.
Steve.

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Will
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #108429 - 29/06/08 05:18 AM

Schama....

I don't need no stinking program to tell me whats I knows already.

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_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

Edited by Will (29/06/08 05:19 AM)

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Will
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: shinz]
      #108430 - 29/06/08 05:23 AM

Shinz,

It's even worse. A guy on AR just chrongraphed his Norma 450's. Indeed he got 2050 fps. Bad.

I guess another product of the slower-is-better Robertson crap.

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Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
      #108436 - 29/06/08 06:24 AM

Guess you're stuck with reloading then

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shinz
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
      #108450 - 29/06/08 09:23 AM

Quote:

Shinz,

It's even worse. A guy on AR just chrongraphed his Norma 450's. Indeed he got 2050 fps. Bad.

I guess another product of the slower-is-better Robertson crap.



Aaaah, so thats who you were referring to, I wondered that
Personally I would stick with 400 grs in any of the 416s, they did the job for 90 odd years, can't see the need to change now, but neither can I see the need to load hotter than than the original loads were advertised at in this caliber, again, 90 years & all that. I'll leave the hot rodding to the Weatherby fraternity. Its hard to see who Norma's target market is for their PH stuff. I can't see too many PHs going for that sort of loading or price, obviously aiming for those with more money than wisdom ( perhaps that should be knowledge.)
Steve

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moltogordo
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: DarylS]
      #108461 - 29/06/08 12:29 PM

I'd go for the Rigby. Just for the history of the cartridge, if nothing else.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: moltogordo]
      #108498 - 29/06/08 08:46 PM

If I were after elephant, especially in dense cover, I could definitely see the point of the 450gr in .416 and .404. Otherwise, I agree - you have to wonder... The .375 350gr are a different story though and IMHO the 550gr .458 . Anyway, I would still use handloads for DG hunting, regardless...

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Paul
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #108588 - 30/06/08 06:57 PM

Does anybody know if similar velocities from different bullet weights are likely to make a double rifle give some degree of regulation? I ask this only because I'd heard that H&H made the different bullet weights shoot together in the .375 flanged magnum before I discovered that the 240 grainers seemed to be loaded down to the same velocity as the heavier ones.

What's this got to do with .416 calibre rifles? Well, I'm wondering if I could get a .500/.416 regulated to the Norma 450 gr slugs and then reload with lighter bullets down to the same velocity.
Then, if I got sick of being thumped around by the heavy bullets, I might still shoot 410 grainers with about the same power as the .450/400.

Can't find Graeme Wright's book at this moment, so can anyone enlighten me on the chances that this might work?

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Will
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Paul]
      #108591 - 30/06/08 08:15 PM

Look for "N E 450 No2" recommendations:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/760101804/m/497104178

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Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Ripp
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #108598 - 30/06/08 10:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Geez it is just too weak for dangerous game...


110 years of experience would seem to suggest otherwise




Totally agree---the 110 years is proof enough for me...

Ripp

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Paul
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
      #108753 - 02/07/08 04:52 PM

Thanks Will,
Went there and got some ideas about a can of worms. The problem I suppose in loading a bullet 3/4 the original one's weight with the same amount of powder, is probably knowing exactly what powder the factory loads use. I don't suppose Norma uses stated, commercially powders in their factory loads.

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thorshammer
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #128102 - 26/02/09 11:19 AM

for the standpoint of buying factory ammo id go with the 416 remington due to the fact its a great caliber and I have never seen or herd from the source it has happened to of it jamming up or locking the bolt from the standpoint of the reloader 416 taylor all the way

for what its worth 375 h&h opperates at 44,000 units of preasure and the 416 remmy is 45,000 so why has noone ever claimed the 375 sticks but the remmy does

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ozhunter
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: thorshammer]
      #128137 - 26/02/09 06:12 PM

Any Q/D scoped rifle in .408" to .435" cal set with a MV at between 2100fps and 2500fps will be great and it would be hard to see any between all of them.
Just so long as they feed and point well.
though there are some benefits to using a popular round, such as ammo availability.

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AZDAVE
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: ozhunter]
      #136933 - 08/06/09 12:04 PM

Well to be different I am building a 416 Express bench rest rifle.

I was reading Pet Loads and found the round interesting. No a big go to Africa but a great 300yd and under elk round. I came across savage PTA single shot action a month or so ago and was looking for what I could put in a short action with a good bit more punch that the 6mm crowd uses. Have to finish a 54cal hawken's (drawn for AZ elk in NOV)(about another 10 hours in the shop to finish) and a M-98 458WM conversion then project three will be my bench rest with attitude:-)

Really enjoy everyone's comment.

Take care Dave

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Ripp
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: thorshammer]
      #136937 - 08/06/09 12:35 PM

Quote:


for what its worth 375 h&h opperates at 44,000 units of preasure and the 416 remmy is 45,000 so why has noone ever claimed the 375 sticks but the remmy does



IMHO, someone who didn't know what the hell they were doing either built a gun incorrectly or operator error...as I stated..I have shot in temps over 100F..never had a problem..no indication of it in any way..even when I have "stoked" them up a bit...even with a “ cheap” Remington action…also have one in a mauser style action as well, fully custom from head to toe…but, being the red-neck I am, still prefer the custom shop Remington…sorry…was what I grew up with ..no place like home..

Do think the Rigby is an awesome caliber and for nothing more than nostalgia..might get the nod from me the next time I get the urge to do another .416...

As to the mention that someone would need more penetration than the Rigby or Remington offer..can't really see that...shot a cow elephant with a 400 gr Barnes solid ..went in above her right eye..out behind the left ear..hit a tree behind her about 40 ft and kept going...have shot buffalo where the bullet entered in the rear and penetrated the entire body..those loads were chronographed at about 2445fps...using RL-15...

Ripp

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FrankMartinez
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #137794 - 23/06/09 03:31 AM

Here are some comparison photos and a link to information about them.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/769108843


My new favorite is the .416 AR

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szihn
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: FrankMartinez]
      #137800 - 23/06/09 04:25 AM

Taylor

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500Nitro
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: szihn]
      #137801 - 23/06/09 04:27 AM


416 Taylor.

Does it all in a short action, brass readily available.

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #142141 - 17/09/09 04:46 AM



More fodder for the .416 debate!

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured_rifles/RS_onetwopunch_091109WO/index.html

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Sarg
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #142146 - 17/09/09 07:59 AM

Yes the Taylor was the way , but now I think the 416 Ruger will kill it off , even I might get one if Ruger does not hurry up and make a 458 Ruger or a 458 Win in their new Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan , I would perfer a Camo Laminated stock as on the Ruger Predator how ever !

This rifle & caliber is a little wonder for the average Joe Big Game hunter IMHO !

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Kalunga
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Sarg]
      #142148 - 17/09/09 09:17 AM

I love my .416 Rigby and can`t imagine that the more modern competitors will beat it in real live performance.
Especially in the hot climate of the African bush the low gas pressure of the Rigby is a good insurance against serious problems.
Just MHO.

Kalunga

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Tatume
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Kalunga]
      #142149 - 17/09/09 09:33 AM

Rigby

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Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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DarylS
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Kalunga]
      #142153 - 17/09/09 10:56 AM

Quote:

I love my .416 Rigby and can`t imagine that the more modern competitors will beat it in real live performance.
Especially in the hot climate of the African bush the low gas pressure of the Rigby is a good insurance against serious problems.
Just MHO.

Kalunga



The low gas pressure of the Rigby is not needed nowadays. The Brits used huge cases to lower pressure due to the instability of the powder they used, ie: Cordite.

Today's powders allow safe maximum loads in smaller cases that duplicate the reduced pressure loads of the huge Brit brass, using less powder and giving less recoil. The Taylor will duplicate Rigby factory ammo and therefore the end results will be the same, as long as the more heavily recoiling Rigby is as user friendly as a Taylor can be.

Today, using that huge case is a waste of money in action size and powder expenditure. Being a free-world in our areas allows us to use whatever we want - hence our acceptance of whatever turns your crank!!

Go for it.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: DarylS]
      #142160 - 17/09/09 12:21 PM

I cannot at this point see that I would have a need for a .416, but reading about them and speaking to those who own them and need them convinces me that I agree with Daryl. Each one is splendid in its own right. They are all really superb cartridges, with the downsides of one being the selling features of another.

I do know which I'd go with, tho, and not because it is "superior" but rather because it "Does it all in a short action, brass readily available".

Sounds familiar, huh??

Thanks 500.

I gotta agree, as much as I like the history of the Rigby and the others for various reasons, I know me and I know I'd pick the one I could shoot for cheapest, and the Taylor would do it best in that regard.

I also like the fact that the Taylor with its small case would likely be very easy to work up light loads; 300's or 400's at 2000 fps would make great Bear Med'cine and the gun could be made very light to handle such loads, too.

I think it was Our Marrakai who has a Taylor Meat Gun that he shoots something like a 400/2250 load in that he says kills all very well indeed.

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #142188 - 17/09/09 09:27 PM


My pick is the .416 Weatherby because I already own one and find the cartridge amazing. If I were to buy another, I would probably go with the .416 Remington. I would consider a ".416 RUM" if they ever make one, which is doubtful. By the way, I am not a reloader so those factors do not play a role in my decision making.

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Tatume
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #142189 - 17/09/09 09:41 PM

The low-pressure cartridges like the 416 Rigby have a different recoil signature. The recoil is not as sharp and quick. I find it more comfortable. As a single-shot aficionado, action length has no importance to me. Thus, I prefer the 416 Rigby over the others.

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NRA Life Member

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9.3x57
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Tatume]
      #142193 - 17/09/09 10:40 PM

Quote:

The low-pressure cartridges like the 416 Rigby have a different recoil signature. The recoil is not as sharp and quick. I find it more comfortable.



I have heard this before. Seems totally plausible. I know the phenomenon can even occur in the same cartridge depending on powder type. It is obvious in the .44 Magnum where achieving 1100 fps with 240 grain bullets produces noticeably different recoil depending on whether Unique or 2400 powders are used. Interestingly, tho there is more powder mass with the 2400 and theoretically the recoil should be heavier, the use of the fast Unique causes a very sharp snap that I find much less comfortable.

An interesting test would be to hand a few shooters the Rigby and Taylor running at the same velocities and see who likes what.

If an honest 2400+ fps is demanded, it seems that might crowd out some Taylors, yes? Seems like I read some can make the speed nicely and others have trouble getting there.

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Ripp
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #142197 - 17/09/09 11:17 PM

Quote:


My pick is the .416 Weatherby because I already own one and find the cartridge amazing. If I were to buy another, I would probably go with the .416 Remington. I would consider a ".416 RUM" if they ever make one, which is doubtful. By the way, I am not a reloader so those factors do not play a role in my decision making.



Why don't you make up one--the .416 RUM would be an amazing caliber --actually have thought about doing that myself..have used all the RUM's with amazing results..have used the 300RUM the most---with 200gr A-Frames..amamzing caliber.

As you stated., pretty sure Remington is not going to do it--just not enough market for it..

After reading this thread though, have to admit the Taylor interests me a bit as well...

so many cartridges, so little time...

RIpp

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Kalunga
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: DarylS]
      #142199 - 17/09/09 11:42 PM

Quote:


The low gas pressure of the Rigby is not needed nowadays. The Brits used huge cases to lower pressure due to the instability of the powder they used, ie: Cordite.



I am Fritz not Brits javascript:void(0) !

Quote:


Today's powders allow safe maximum loads in smaller cases that duplicate the reduced pressure loads of the huge Brit brass, using less powder and giving less recoil.



I was talking about real life performance and I will never forget the experience a hunter I know made with a .416 Rem. in Benin. He took a shot at a buffalo that lost his sense of humour and charged instantly..... The problem then was that the action of his rifle didn`t open due to excessive gas pressure. These are the kind of problems I was talking about.

Kalunga

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Huvius
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Ripp]
      #142200 - 17/09/09 11:47 PM

I like the Rigby mostly for the sake of nostalgia.

A couple questions though:
Why is it assumed that you need a magnum action for the Rigby? (Selby's was on a standard length action)
And, if it can all be done with a smaller case capacity, then, why is the .338 Lapua such a hit?

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9.3x57
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Huvius]
      #142201 - 18/09/09 12:05 AM

Quote:

And, if it can all be done with a smaller case capacity



Pressure for pressure with the same bullets, it can't of course.

That's why they ALL have great appeal.

However, I'd be interested to know the consensus of whether the lengthened actions should be used for loads developing the same max working pressures as those generated by the .416 Weatherby and Remington. Not whether the action will blow up, but whether the action should be subjected to top pressure loads as a steady diet.

The .416 Rem would also be appealing to me...as it has cheap components {cases} easily available. In fact, it would seem the .416 REM would appeal to all side best as far as pure practicality is concerned; cheap cases, top velocities.

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DarylS
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Huvius]
      #142202 - 18/09/09 12:12 AM

All of the factory .416 Rigby's I know of, are on long actions and expensive rifles.

In the .416 Taylor, a 400gr. bullet driven by 70-odd grains of powder is preferable to me and my current recoil sensitivness over a 400gr. bullet driven by 100-odd grains of powder for the same speed. Guess I'm a bit soft in my old age.
I know that in North America on even the big bears, nothing past 52gr. to 58gr. of powder driving a 350gr. or 400gr. bullet at 2,000fps to 2,100fps is required. Hmmmm sounds quite similar to the .450/400, doesn't it.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: DarylS]
      #142208 - 18/09/09 12:49 AM

I believe Huvius is correct.

Were the standard actions commonly opened up not just for .375 but also .416?

Also, Selby is a South Paw but seemed to do OK with the wrong side bolt handle. We Lefty's must be creative, ya'know, living in a discriminatory Right-Hand World as we do...

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DarylS
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: FrankMartinez]
      #142210 - 18/09/09 01:02 AM

Quote:

Here are some comparison photos and a link to information about them.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/769108843


My new favorite is the .416 AR





I like the AR & uit's looks, but it has more capacity than I need.

After some decades of using belted cases from the 6.5 Mag on up, I've come to the conclusion that any new rifle I make up for a necked and belted case will be chambered for that case with the belt removed. I do prefer rimmless rounds and even slightly rebated rims to belts as I did with the .450 Alaskan to .458 Alaskan. Trimming belts off is an easy chore with a small lathe or electric drill in a bench vice - seconds is all it takes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: DarylS]
      #142229 - 18/09/09 06:47 AM

Thats all very well , but no need for a Wildcat now with the beltless , "cheap" , powerfull & avaiable 416 Ruger !

Have you guys read up on it at all ?

I think you may not have from reading your posts !

You can rechamber a 416 Taylor to 416 Ruger as well , will take 10 years to be ever where no doubt .

If you knew about the Ruger , why would you not pick that , other than romance ?

Too new,untested, ?

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500Nitro
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Sarg]
      #142230 - 18/09/09 06:54 AM


Reports coming back that the 338 RCM aren't getting the velocities stated in the catalogues.

So the question is, are the velocities going to be the
same in the 416 ?


Comes down to my original point, Readily available brass - 416R - N', cheap brass - 416R = No. Plenty of 375H&H brass around.

What does the 416R give you that the other's don't,
except a new factory gun ?

Romance, short action - shouldn;t be a factor.

Short action - no action (except the Magnum Mauser) has ever slowed me up in fast shooting (and I have used a 375H&H Action a lot where 20 shots in 1 - 2 minutes was needed) and I don't think the short action would have made me any faster.

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Yochanan
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #142231 - 18/09/09 07:48 AM

There can be only one classic - 416 Rigby. Load it hot if you prefer or keep it at standard specification with low pressure. Personally I find the recoil is becoming a bit sharp when a 410grain bullet is loaded to 2400fps plus.

Factory fodder available from Federal, Norma, Kynoch, Hornady and Winchester.

Magnum mauser action, because, they are so damn gorgeous.

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: FrankMartinez]
      #142234 - 18/09/09 08:08 AM

Hard to beat the original old classic .416 Rigby. For double rifles, the latest Kreighoff creation, the .500/.416 Rigby is outstanding, with performance same as Rigby, but with less pressure, making it more desirable for double rifles that are not as strong as bolt rifles.

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Reggie
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #155438 - 04/03/10 06:05 AM

Pat -

IF you reload, there is no better choice than the .416 Taylor.

Even though the Taylor has passed muster with SAAMI, there only seems to be one manufacturer (A-Square) that has been interested in putting this cartridge out to market - at a considerable price!

BUT, when reloading comes into play, you can shoot the Taylor well and (relatively) cheaply, with everything from the high dollar jacketed rounds to very good (and inexpensive) cast bullets.

Anything that walks, craws, flies or slithers on this Earth can be taken easily with the Taylor!

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Reggie]
      #155443 - 04/03/10 08:20 AM

Can someone out there tell me what the big deal is between "short" and "long" actions ?? I have never been a bolt fan other than Mannlichers but why do people care if it's a long or short ? Why do ammo manufacturers keep inventing cartridges that fit in "short" actions ? I must have read 200+ shooting/reloading/hunting books but have never got my head around this.If you want a rifle in a long cartridge buy an rifle with a suitable action ! Please help someone, regards, Mike

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450_366
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #155444 - 04/03/10 08:44 AM

They got it wrong, most do prefer a longer action, dispite the rumor.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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FATBOY404
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #155455 - 04/03/10 11:09 AM

I agree with you Mike. I have never short cycled a magnum action in the heat of the moment and as far as weight is cocerned most of us are 10 kg over weight so why worry if your magnum action is a pound heavier.
Having said that if I wanted another BG rifle to go with my 404 it would probably be a 416 Taylor.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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010166
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: FATBOY404]
      #155458 - 04/03/10 12:04 PM

I am suprised no one has mentioned the .416 Hoffman. The cases are easily made from .416 Rem Mag brass, and it has pretty impressive balistics. After reading the coments above the .416 Taylor really does seem popular. I will still stick to my .404 as it will do anything a .416 will do.

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Con
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 010166]
      #155473 - 04/03/10 03:33 PM

Quote:

I will still stick to my .404 as it will do anything a .416 will do.



Hey ... I reckon exactly the same about my 458AccRel (shortened 300RUM wildcat opened to 45cal). I can get upto 2550fps from a 400gr, 2230fps without breaking a sweat from a 500gr ... in a standard length unmodified Ruger action as a 2+1.

I cant see the reason to have 416s when a 45 can do it just as easily.

If I had to pick a 416 ... it'd be the 416Taylor. Odd how the smaller case polls better than the larger 416Rem and 416Ruger.
Cheers...
Con

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DarylS
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #155513 - 05/03/10 04:39 AM

Sarg - For me, the .416 Ruger, having 6gr. more capacity than a H&H case, has more capacity than needed to get 2,400fps with a 400gr. bullet - is only one reason I wouldn't choose it.

Besides, I like making my own stuff & turning the belts off .338 or .458 brass is easy-peasy and dirt cheap - too, any belted brass will do. I don't have to buy Hornady 'Ruger .375 or .416 brass' - which will not likely be available here (if ever, in bags for handloading) for another 2 years or more. Having to buy ammo at $75.00 to $90.00 for 20 just doesn't turn my crank - waste of money - but picking it up once fired at the range, being able to use anything from .264 Win. and larger in belted cases or being 'saved' for me by 1/2 doz. to a dozen other shooters does.

Free beats $$ anytime. Alows more powder in the vault and more bullets in the cupboard for loading.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: DarylS]
      #155617 - 06/03/10 09:40 AM

I also like the Taylor above all others
True, there are bigger and faster 416s out there, but to me that's not the point.
I love the ballistics of a 416 bullet of 400 grains going 2350 FPS from the muzzle. That's the same as the original 416 Rigby.
But the Taylor does it from a standard size rifle action and with inexpensive components. The rifles I have made in the Taylor carry nicer then the bigger magnum actions do and they kill very well. If you have for example, $2500 to spend on a rifle and you put $1200 into an action you have only $1300 left over for a stock, a barrel, sights, bases and rigs if you want them, a pad, and ALL the gunsmithing
Now a Taylor can be made on a 98 Mauser with an excellent action for dangerous game, but you will only have $150 to $200 in that action. So that leaves a LOT more money to spend on wood and gunsmithing.
In a nut shell, a $2500 416 Taylor made on a Mauser is a LOT nicer then a $2500 416 Rigby built on about anything, just because on the bigger fatter shells, you are going to eat up a lot of cash just buying parts. The difference in the "grade" of the rifle is always going to be more in the gunsmithing, and less in the parts. Anyone can buy parts, but to build them into a masterpiece is all about the skill.

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Reggie
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
      #155674 - 07/03/10 09:41 AM

Quote:

Shinz,

I can get 2400 fps with a 400 gr. bullet in the Taylor but I can't get the bullet seated down to the cannalure. As such, the bullet sticks out of the case a bit, but it doesn't matter. As the rifle recoils, the bullets hit the front of the magazine box and hence the bullet isn't going anywhere since the powder is quite compressed to begin with.

There is a simple way of estimating bullet velocities for different bullet weights. I have never seen it "published" anywhere but it will get you in the ball park.

Making the assumption that the cartridge case holds so much energy the muzzle energy of different weight bullets will be approximately the same. The heavier the bullet the less powder is typically used, but for estimating velocities one can assume the same powder charge and hence the same amount of chemical energy.

In the csse of a 400 gr. bullet in the 416 Rem. at 2400 fps, the vel. of a 450 gr. bullet is found from equating muzzle energies,

(400)(2400)^2 = (450)(V)^2

V = 2262 fps.

Hence, I would expect to get about 2250 fps for a 450 gr. bullet in the 416 RM.

If you do this for the loads in a reloading manual or in the ammo manufacturer's catalogs you will see this to be true.



Bill -

Have you tried any of the 350gr. Speer Hot Core bullets? With these and 70.0gr. R-15 on top of a Fed 215 magnum primer, I get 2350fps. velocity, great accuracy and impressive performance.


Reggie

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ovny
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #155698 - 07/03/10 07:32 PM

I like very much 416 Rigby. It is a classic cartridge that never disappoints.

Oscar.

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I am Spanish

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Rule303
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: ovny]
      #155788 - 08/03/10 11:44 PM

I'd go with the Rigby. Relatively cheap rifle, $1500 for a CZ550. The nostalgia is part of it. As mentioned earlier the recoil is more of a push then a sharp kick. I have fired a 416 Taylor- beautiful rifle and a good cartridge but it does push back sharper than the Rigby. I would think this should not be a problem.

Greg

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reflex264
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Ripp]
      #159890 - 03/05/10 01:37 PM

I have a Rigby and Taylor and really like them both. The Rigby with handloads has no problem getting 400grs out at 2500fps. The Taylor will get them out at 2400fps but I have found that loading them 2350fps using IMR4320 lets me crimp in the groove and Doesn't show any pressure problems. I have shot it on really hot days without a hitch. I guess I can't decide between the two but if forced I will have to say the Taylor. reflex264

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Brazos_Jack
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #160142 - 08/05/10 08:11 PM

A-Pick any one .416 cal cartridge - .416 Remington Magnum

B-State why you would pick this cartridge over the others.
-My retirement years will include a lot of traveling hunts, including a couple to Africa. No other .416 (or .400 or .404) comes close to the availability of the .416 RM in places you might need one - Like Africa, Australia, or Alaska. Even the .416 Rigby is a far distant 2nd place. Loose your luggage with your ammo on your way to Africa and with any of the others you are probably SOL.

C-What type of gun would you purchase or chamber it in. Blaser R93 Professional

From what I've heard and read, any .416 that can muster anywhere above 2150 is good to go and exceeding 2500 can hurt penetration due to bullet problems. So the Taylor, or even the old .450-.400 are fine performance wise. The Ruger looks like a good, well thought out design and the .400 H&H is decidedly better is every detail than any other I've seen.

But the .416 Rem. has no issues, having enough case taper for the pressure it runs to assure reliable extraction in any properly built and maintained rifle in any ambient temperatures you'll ever encounter.

The .30-.338 magnum and the .308 Norma Magnum are both better cartridge designs than the .300 Win Mag. But I would have no problem finding some .300 Win Mag in Jo'berg. Not so the other two.

Unless you never hunt more than 30 minutes from your reloading bench, always pick the most widely available cartridge in a given class.

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DarylS
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Brazos_Jack]
      #160154 - 08/05/10 11:28 PM

.416 Taylor - belt turned off - never mentioned this before - well, maybe I have. Easy to chamber- just use a .416 Rem reamer and hold the reamer back for a 1.5" case. Easy peasy chambering. No belt and better dead fit to modern brass.
Same loading data as Taylor, and no unsightly belt that's doing nothing for the round.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bonanza
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #160156 - 09/05/10 12:29 AM

.416 Remington so I can get headstamped cases.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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DarylS
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: bonanza]
      #160176 - 09/05/10 10:57 AM

Interesting point. I suppose that would be good for some wishing comformity.

I've been shooting non-correct headstamp cases for so many years, I don't even think of them any more. My first wildcat, a .257 Ackley Improved, had 6mm Rem, 7x57 Mauser and 8x47 Mauser headstamped cases for the three different bullet weights I used, one for each. My .458 2" had .264 WinMag to .458 Win mag and every make and headstamp in between - 7mm Mag, .300 Win Mag, .308 Norma Mag., .300 wTBY Mag., .350 Rem Mag. and .338 Win Mag and all different mades as well. I found the .458 did not care what make they were - still plunked them into tiny groups.
For the .416, I'd probably stick with .338
Win. Mag or .458 Win. mag. - or both - each for different bullet weights.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Brazos_Jack
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: DarylS]
      #160190 - 09/05/10 02:37 PM

I haven't heard of it being an issue yet. But I would rather have what is stamped on the brass match what is stamped on the rifle barrel when passing through customs inspection in an African country. I already have an official looking label I can print out so that at least the ammo box label matches the rifle barrel.

Brazos Jack

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88MauSporter
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #160191 - 09/05/10 03:01 PM

XAUSA, Nice big game rifle. Be proud.

I will go with the standard .404 Jeffery. I little too big and a lot of case capacity to powder charge. Keeps the pressure down in those hot climates. Like the ORIGINAL .375 H&H.
Let us know how it perfoms on big game.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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DarylS
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #160208 - 10/05/10 12:38 AM

With the powders that are available today - temperature is a non-event as to pressure.

I'll never get to Africa, so customs problems are also a non-event. Love my wildcats.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rule303
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: DarylS]
      #160283 - 11/05/10 09:26 PM

Hate to disagree but even with modern powders temp has to be watched esp if you are running near max loads. Load up a some of rounds with ADI, Hodgon powderX2 and 2 with win ball powder. fire one of each. Then hold the others in your hands until the powder has had time to warm and fire them. I think you will find a difference in the recoil of the one with the win powder.

Cheers
Greg

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Ben
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Rule303]
      #160285 - 11/05/10 09:42 PM

I have really enjoyed using my .416 Rigby, but don't have any experience with anything else. I think a weakened magazine spring is the cause of my current feeding problems with bullets on the right-hand-side of the magazine.

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Schauckis
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Ben]
      #160369 - 13/05/10 06:21 AM

.416 Wea Mag for no reason at all.
Make the rifle a laminated or plastic stock Wea MkV for durability and usability.

Then again, the .416 Rem Mag will do anything asked to do and it's more gun than I can handle.
My friend is plenty pleased with his Sako .416 RM and despite it being quite a light gun the recoil isn't too bad at all.
When shooting a big giraffe bull I borrowed the PH's Winchester in .416 RM and the results left nothing to be desired.
Add the good availability of rifles and ammo and it makes a good case or itself, for sure.

- Lars/Finland

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A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

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Reggie
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #161552 - 06/06/10 07:58 AM

TAYLOR!

Plain and simple - it does the job!!!

If you need more than the Taylor, you either need high explosives or you need to reconsider your hunting skills.

Reggie

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Ben
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Reggie]
      #161558 - 06/06/10 08:34 AM

Although, Reggie, there are those who argue that a fellow doesn't really need anything beyond this-or-that cartridge way below a .416 Taylor! Shooting big bores isn't so much about hunting skills as about fun. Cheers.

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tophet1
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Ben]
      #161563 - 06/06/10 09:43 AM

I agree 100% Reggie. Which is why I'll always hunt with my 9.3x62. Having said that I've just ordered a CZ550 in .416 Rigby and it will be nothing but fun, noise and recoil (evil grin).

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vapodog
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: tophet1]
      #161564 - 06/06/10 09:58 AM

416 Ruger.....a bit more "oomph" than the Taylor but it's a standard vs a wildcat....

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375shooter
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: vapodog]
      #161572 - 06/06/10 11:47 AM

I have a .416 Rigby and love it. It has a rich history with a superb reputation. I wouldn't want to be without one. I've had 400 gr. Hornady's moving along at 2700 fps, but my normal working load is 2400. It's very manageable at this velocity. I never shot anything larger than a black bear with it, although I would love to hunt elephant and buffalo.

I think the .416 Ruger is a well-balanced cartridge. IMO, it has the perfect overall length and case capacity for the caliber plus it's beltless.

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Rule303]
      #161603 - 07/06/10 01:09 AM

Quote:

Hate to disagree but even with modern powders temp has to be watched esp if you are running near max loads. Load up a some of rounds with ADI, Hodgon powderX2 and 2 with win ball powder. fire one of each. Then hold the others in your hands until the powder has had time to warm and fire them. I think you will find a difference in the recoil of the one with the win powder.

Cheers
Greg



Greg - Perhaps you misunderstood my post. I did not say ALL modern powders carried that trait. The Winchester powders, designed way back in the 50's and the hodgdon ball powders are not the same as the ADI or Hodgdon Extreme powders in temp swings. As far as I know, even the AA balls powders have to be carefully loaded in hot temps.

The modern 'Reloader' powders are supposedly better than any of the spherical powders for stability in temp extremes - but, they don't match H4895 or Varget, which are both good powders for the Taylor - which can safely be loaded to 60,000 - 63,000 PSI in the winter and fired in 120F temps in the summer.

Today, with, OK - some of the modern powders, pressure excursions with temperature are a thing of the past.

Temp excursions were the reason the Notro Express rounds weer loaded to such low pressures - put another way - temperature extremes with the powders available way back THEN, are the reason the Nitro Express cases are so large for their ballistics. The cases had to be that large to get the performance desired as pressures safe to shoot in Africa.

H$ll, even 1950 to 1960 era IMR4320 loads for 400gr. @ 2,350fps to 2,400fps were safe in Africa, in the .416 Taylor. Today, we have much more stable powders than that, and performance can be improved upon even more. Amazing what a bit of technology can do. Smaller rounds today outpace the larger rounds of yesterday.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: DarylS]
      #368502 - 22/08/22 12:26 AM

.500/416 NE, or the newer .416 Rigby No.2 Rimmed.

In a nice side by side double rifle.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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crshelton
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: NitroX]
      #368521 - 22/08/22 08:08 AM

No thank you.
I am happy with my .405 and do perceive a need for a .416.






--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: crshelton]
      #368523 - 22/08/22 10:06 AM

I love my 416 Rigby but I also have a soft spot for the .416 Taylor. I’d love to have one of the new Rigby Rising Bites in a .416 #2 (that would be my first choice).

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grandveneur
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #378918 - 27/08/23 01:09 AM

That was an interesting question too.

The cartridges caliber .416 are definitely the best that a client who wants to hunt Big Game in Africa can buy. One rifle is enough, because these cartridges also allow to shoot smaller game without problems. Recoil should not be a problem either when compared to rifles caliber .458 or similar. Which cartridge is primarily dependent on the budget, whereby the cartridge 416 Rem Mag is on the cheap side and the cartridge 416 Rigby on the expensive. Both are more or less comparable in terms of working.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: grandveneur]
      #378920 - 27/08/23 01:54 AM

It's always interesting to see how consistent ones opinion is from old threads to the present. I think the post on the last page was my only post.

My choice would be a .404 Jeffery. Not technically a .416 but I'm not a big one for irrelevant rules.

Yes if I had a new double rifle, still a .416 Rigby No.2 or a .500/416 NE, or a .375 Flanged. Scoped. As my general world hunting rifle. Probably the .375 as I'd hope it would see a lot of use on medium game, deer at home, ferals etc.

I've thought a set of custom Tikka/Valmet barrels U/O in .416 might be a short cut, ie cheaper. Not the same as a nice side by side.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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grandveneur
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Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: NitroX]
      #378921 - 27/08/23 02:07 AM

Here it was mainly about the caliber .416, but a rifle caliber 404 Jeffery is an equivalent option, perhaps not as versatile as cartridges caliber 416.

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