Forums.NitroExpress.com

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact NitroExpress.com: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for?

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies

*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

You are not logged in. [Login]

Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | >> (show all)

shinz
.300 member

Reged: 11/05/08
Posts: 135
Loc: New Zealand

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: xausa]
#108149 - 25/06/08 07:42 PM

Quote:

No problem answering this one. I had my own wildcat .416 before the Taylor came out. I simply opened up the .300 Winchester Magnum case to .416 and had a P-14 Enfield barrelled to fit. It will do anything the Taylor will do and a tiny bit more. Easy brass availability, no problem duplicating .416 Rigby ballistics. I have a picture of it around somewhere I can forward to Dale to post. Very satisfying to shoot.

Xausa, very nice, gives me some inspiration for the P14 action I have squirreled away, specially like the bolt handle, one of the nicest I've seen on an Enfield. I probably still stay with the Taylor, but, what is your case length as loaded? I assume it shortens the 300 Win case slightly. Do you need to neck ream where the shoulder becomes the neck? & are the other dimensions the same as for the 300 Win? COAL ? Thanks.
Steve

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: shinz]
#108243 - 27/06/08 05:42 AM

The bolt handle is the work of my late lamented gunsmith friend and partner, Harry Creighton, who was a real artist in altering bolts. His Mausers, Enfields and Springfields bear a more than casual resemblance to pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters. I know of no one presently who does them as well.

Cartridge case length and over all length are the same as the .300 Winchester Magnum, 2.620" and 3.340", although the fired cases I measured were all but one over the 2.620" trim to length. A .416 bullet slides easily into the mouth of a fired case, so there seems to be no "dreaded doughnut" where the original neck was expanded. I can't remember for sure, but I believe there was no special reamer used to chamber the rifle. I believe we just used the .300 Winchester Magnum reamer with a .408" pilot to form the chamber body and then used a neck and throat reamer to cut the rest.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

shrike
.224 member

Reged: 16/07/04
Posts: 29

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: 375RugerNo1]
#108283 - 27/06/08 01:48 PM

For African use the .416 Rigby is the best choice.
Its balistics of a 400 grainer @ 2400 fps, a perfect choice for deep penetration without bullet distortion.
Low pressure and long tapered case will contribute to easy feeding and extraction, critical in any DGR.
Rifle a Johanson or Empire DGR.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

shinz
.300 member

Reged: 11/05/08
Posts: 135
Loc: New Zealand

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: xausa]
#108304 - 27/06/08 06:04 PM

Thanks Xausa, for that, sorry to all for taking the thread away from the subject a bit. I like the idea of two reamers the way you've described it, gives me another string to my bow as it were.

I guess that what you have there is just a 416 version of the 425 express that was mentioned above.
Steve.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Will
.333 member

Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: shinz]
#108311 - 27/06/08 08:52 PM

Shinz,

I can get 2400 fps with a 400 gr. bullet in the Taylor but I can't get the bullet seated down to the cannalure. As such, the bullet sticks out of the case a bit, but it doesn't matter. As the rifle recoils, the bullets hit the front of the magazine box and hence the bullet isn't going anywhere since the powder is quite compressed to begin with.

There is a simple way of estimating bullet velocities for different bullet weights. I have never seen it "published" anywhere but it will get you in the ball park.

Making the assumption that the cartridge case holds so much energy the muzzle energy of different weight bullets will be approximately the same. The heavier the bullet the less powder is typically used, but for estimating velocities one can assume the same powder charge and hence the same amount of chemical energy.

In the csse of a 400 gr. bullet in the 416 Rem. at 2400 fps, the vel. of a 450 gr. bullet is found from equating muzzle energies,

(400)(2400)^2 = (450)(V)^2

V = 2262 fps.

Hence, I would expect to get about 2250 fps for a 450 gr. bullet in the 416 RM.

If you do this for the loads in a reloading manual or in the ammo manufacturer's catalogs you will see this to be true.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Will
.333 member

Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: shinz]
#108314 - 27/06/08 08:59 PM

Quote:

Norma are loading it in their African PH series of cartridges by the look of their latest catalogue, loading 450 gr Woodleighs, both soft & solid at 2100 fps, 4408 ft-lbs. I think it is also on their website as a PDF, I've got a paper catalogue to drool over.
Steve.

As you can see from my above post the Norma ammo, if the 450 gr. bullet is exiting at only 2100 fps, is seriously weak.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Will
.333 member

Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
#108316 - 27/06/08 09:09 PM

Actually the Norma sight shows 2150 fps, but it is still under loaded.

I usually do like sniping, but I think this another case of taking the advice of hunters that pretend to be scientist types. In this case the worst of the worst. Not to mention names, but ...

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Schamankungulo
.300 member

Reged: 21/04/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
#108358 - 28/06/08 08:53 AM

I have a program that figures that Will , you enter the powder charge and bullet weight and velocity of the known specimen then enter the powder charge and bullet weight of the other , it figures the velocity based on both loads creating the same pressure ..

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

shinz
.300 member

Reged: 11/05/08
Posts: 135
Loc: New Zealand

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
#108402 - 28/06/08 06:07 PM

Quote:

Actually the Norma sight shows 2150 fps, but it is still under loaded.

My slip up on that one, I was thinking in terms of the 458 Lott which was being discussed on another thread & that was at 2100fps, which also seemed a bit wimpy to me & its not even a 550 gr like the 450 Rigby. Oh hell, there I go digressing again.

I like the sound of your loads heaps better Will.
Steve.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: shinz]
#108406 - 28/06/08 09:29 PM

If you want standard length cartridges/standard length actions then forum member Ripp's desire for a 416 Ruger wildcat would be perfect and give plenty of velocity at lower pressures than other standard length wilcats.

For the 110-120 degree African heat I would prefer the 416 Rigby with lower pressures, otherwise the 416 remington or a 375 Ruger wildcated to 416 should do just fine.Just my personal approach from havingsome overly hot handloads lock up some of my bolts(from my previous max velocity days)--not good!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

shinz
.300 member

Reged: 11/05/08
Posts: 135
Loc: New Zealand

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: hoppdoc]
#108408 - 28/06/08 10:28 PM

Having previously owned a 416 Rigby, I agree with you as far as that goes. Some of my reasoning in going for the Taylor is that I already have a lot of the bits I need to complete it barring a barrel,& dies etc will be cheaper for the Taylor than another Rigby, being aware of the forthcoming (?) 416 Ruger, I figure that a Ruger chamber should clean up a Taylor chamber but not a Remington one without setting back the barrel so in the short term the Taylor gets my nod, with a Ruger if &/or when they get more common & popular. I believe that careful load development with the correct choice of powders should nullify the pressure concerns that the Rigby was designed to address. 75grs of ADI2208/Varget behind a 400 gr bullet should see me right.

Steve.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Will
.333 member

Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Schamankungulo]
#108429 - 29/06/08 05:18 AM

Schama....

I don't need no stinking program to tell me whats I knows already.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

Edited by Will (29/06/08 05:19 AM)

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Will
.333 member

Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: shinz]
#108430 - 29/06/08 05:23 AM

Shinz,

It's even worse. A guy on AR just chrongraphed his Norma 450's. Indeed he got 2050 fps. Bad.

I guess another product of the slower-is-better Robertson crap.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

JabaliHunter
.400 member

Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
#108436 - 29/06/08 06:24 AM

Guess you're stuck with reloading then

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

shinz
.300 member

Reged: 11/05/08
Posts: 135
Loc: New Zealand

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
#108450 - 29/06/08 09:23 AM

Quote:

Shinz,

It's even worse. A guy on AR just chrongraphed his Norma 450's. Indeed he got 2050 fps. Bad.

I guess another product of the slower-is-better Robertson crap.

Aaaah, so thats who you were referring to, I wondered that

Personally I would stick with 400 grs in any of the 416s, they did the job for 90 odd years, can't see the need to change now, but neither can I see the need to load hotter than than the original loads were advertised at in this caliber, again, 90 years & all that. I'll leave the hot rodding to the Weatherby fraternity. Its hard to see who Norma's target market is for their PH stuff. I can't see too many PHs going for that sort of loading or price, obviously aiming for those with more money than wisdom ( perhaps that should be knowledge.)
Steve

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

moltogordo
.224 member

Reged: 05/04/08
Posts: 27
Loc: British Columbia Canada

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: DarylS]
#108461 - 29/06/08 12:29 PM

I'd go for the Rigby. Just for the history of the cartridge, if nothing else.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

JabaliHunter
.400 member

Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: moltogordo]
#108498 - 29/06/08 08:46 PM

If I were after elephant, especially in dense cover, I could definitely see the point of the 450gr in .416 and .404. Otherwise, I agree - you have to wonder... The .375 350gr are a different story though and IMHO the 550gr .458 . Anyway, I would still use handloads for DG hunting, regardless...

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Paul
.400 member

Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: JabaliHunter]
#108588 - 30/06/08 06:57 PM

Does anybody know if similar velocities from different bullet weights are likely to make a double rifle give some degree of regulation? I ask this only because I'd heard that H&H made the different bullet weights shoot together in the .375 flanged magnum before I discovered that the 240 grainers seemed to be loaded down to the same velocity as the heavier ones.

What's this got to do with .416 calibre rifles? Well, I'm wondering if I could get a .500/.416 regulated to the Norma 450 gr slugs and then reload with lighter bullets down to the same velocity.
Then, if I got sick of being thumped around by the heavy bullets, I might still shoot 410 grainers with about the same power as the .450/400.

Can't find Graeme Wright's book at this moment, so can anyone enlighten me on the chances that this might work?

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Will
.333 member

Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Paul]
#108591 - 30/06/08 08:15 PM

Look for "N E 450 No2" recommendations:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/760101804/m/497104178

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: JabaliHunter]
#108598 - 30/06/08 10:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Geez it is just too weak for dangerous game...

110 years of experience would seem to suggest otherwise

Totally agree---the 110 years is proof enough for me...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Paul
.400 member

Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: Will]
#108753 - 02/07/08 04:52 PM

Thanks Will,
Went there and got some ideas about a can of worms. The problem I suppose in loading a bullet 3/4 the original one's weight with the same amount of powder, is probably knowing exactly what powder the factory loads use. I don't suppose Norma uses stated, commercially powders in their factory loads.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

thorshammer
.300 member

Reged: 27/12/08
Posts: 150
Loc: USA

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: JabaliHunter]
#128102 - 26/02/09 11:19 AM

for the standpoint of buying factory ammo id go with the 416 remington due to the fact its a great caliber and I have never seen or herd from the source it has happened to of it jamming up or locking the bolt from the standpoint of the reloader 416 taylor all the way

for what its worth 375 h&h opperates at 44,000 units of preasure and the 416 remmy is 45,000 so why has noone ever claimed the 375 sticks but the remmy does

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

ozhunter
.400 member

Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: thorshammer]
#128137 - 26/02/09 06:12 PM

Any Q/D scoped rifle in .408" to .435" cal set with a MV at between 2100fps and 2500fps will be great and it would be hard to see any between all of them.
Just so long as they feed and point well.
though there are some benefits to using a popular round, such as ammo availability.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

AZDAVE
.275 member

Reged: 12/02/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Arizona, USA

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: ozhunter]
#136933 - 08/06/09 12:04 PM

Well to be different I am building a 416 Express bench rest rifle.

I was reading Pet Loads and found the round interesting. No a big go to Africa but a great 300yd and under elk round. I came across savage PTA single shot action a month or so ago and was looking for what I could put in a short action with a good bit more punch that the 6mm crowd uses. Have to finish a 54cal hawken's (drawn for AZ elk in NOV)(about another 10 hours in the shop to finish) and a M-98 458WM conversion then project three will be my bench rest with attitude:-)

Really enjoy everyone's comment.

Take care Dave

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Pick a .416 Cal cartridge! Which would you go for? [Re: thorshammer]
#136937 - 08/06/09 12:35 PM

Quote:

for what its worth 375 h&h opperates at 44,000 units of preasure and the 416 remmy is 45,000 so why has noone ever claimed the 375 sticks but the remmy does

IMHO, someone who didn't know what the hell they were doing either built a gun incorrectly or operator error...as I stated..I have shot in temps over 100F..never had a problem..no indication of it in any way..even when I have "stoked" them up a bit...even with a “ cheap” Remington action…also have one in a mauser style action as well, fully custom from head to toe…but, being the red-neck I am, still prefer the custom shop Remington…sorry…was what I grew up with ..no place like home..

Do think the Rigby is an awesome caliber and for nothing more than nostalgia..might get the nod from me the next time I get the urge to do another .416...

As to the mention that someone would need more penetration than the Rigby or Remington offer..can't really see that...shot a cow elephant with a 400 gr Barnes solid ..went in above her right eye..out behind the left ear..hit a tree behind her about 40 ft and kept going...have shot buffalo where the bullet entered in the rear and penetrated the entire body..those loads were chronographed at about 2445fps...using RL-15...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | >> (show all)

Extra information

1 registered and 400 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 50415

Jump to

NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact

Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved