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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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kcordell
.275 member


Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Collath Drilling and Arms
      #107196 - 11/06/08 12:49 PM

Hi,

I just acquired a Collath Model 88 drilling in 16x16x I think 8x57. It only says "8" so will have to chamber cast.

Does anyone know where I could find more data on these cool long arms? I am really intrigued by the design, engraving, and overall workmanship.

Many thanks,

KC

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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: kcordell]
      #107199 - 11/06/08 04:16 PM

KC...

Great drilling! It may be in any number of 8mm variations, so a chamber casting is necessary. This maker was noted for propriatery cartridges and can present a bit of a problem to owners of his very fine firearms, accordingly.

There were some of these made in the original 88 version with the wide rim. I've found that the later 8X57JR ammo works just fine if the extractor catches even a bit of the rim. I had for a while a DR drilling in that early 8X57 chambering, and the later "J" bore rimmed ammo worked fine.

I would be willing to take odds that the rifle is an 8 X 72R Teschner-Collath variation...there were two, one with a narrower case than the other.

That gun says "Collath" all over it with the wing and the forend lever. The rifle barrel selector should be on the right front of the trigger guard. It is a beautiful and unique Classic.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: luv2safari]
      #107238 - 12/06/08 07:22 AM

The German Gun Collectors Association many times has resources for these arms. The Collath guns are particularly interesting. The book European Sporting Cartridges has info as well. There was a good number of cartridges developed by and for the Collath guns.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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kcordell
.275 member


Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #107257 - 12/06/08 12:03 PM

Hey thanks for the comments above. I just did a chamber cast and it appears to be typical .318 8x57JR. The spring for shotgun appears to be weak so I may be having my gunsmith create a new one so it is field ready.

Per the German Gun Collectors Assn, I have been a member for years and yes they have good information. I let my and my father's membership lapse this year but may re-join.

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375ER
.224 member


Reged: 09/06/08
Posts: 3
Loc: Minnesota,USA
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: kcordell]
      #107630 - 18/06/08 08:08 AM

kcordell,

I have a Collath drilling as well. I have been trying to PM you but I seem to be having computer troubles and the message is not showing as going to you. If you have a moment please PM me and maybe my reply will reach you.

Thanks.

375er

P.S. Nice drilling!

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Collath_500BPE
.300 member


Reged: 30/08/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Europe, Austria
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: kcordell]
      #109254 - 08/07/08 02:55 PM

Hi kcordell,
here are some pics of my Collath DR in .500 BPE x 3,38"
a very rare gun.The DR is also nitro proofed.
regards Johann [image]http://[/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

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kcordell
.275 member


Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #122415 - 27/12/08 04:33 PM

That is a beautiful arm! Been away from the forum for a while so sorry for the late reply.

Now that I am back and also just received my Collath back from the gunsmith with a new set of springs.

Curious, for the shotgun side, how can you tell if a collath is either 16ga or a Collath 16?

Thanks,

KC

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: kcordell]
      #122432 - 27/12/08 10:49 PM

the collath No. 3 come close to the 16 bore iirc, such gun have maybe then a No 3 mark on the barrel.
a chamber cast will show some difference to a 16 bore chamber.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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kcordell
.275 member


Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: lancaster]
      #122440 - 28/12/08 12:49 AM

Lancaster,

Thanks for your reply. I need to confirm but I think this is a C.4. 16 fits very snug like a sock. Should it be safe to shoot? I use polywad 16 2.5" vintagers with chamber pressure ~ 6500 to 7000.

Thanks,
KC

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: kcordell]
      #122454 - 28/12/08 04:41 AM

if it have a 8x57 IR or IRS chamber it will be nitro proof gun and safe for 2,5" shot loads. please post a photo of the proof marks. collath dont make saturday nigth special guns. it was a best gun maker and in my opinion on a level with th best british firms.
the collath No.4 and No.3 are very similar and I dont find my data list now. if the 16 bore fit than you are rigth with it. the teschner- collath shotgun cartridge family is full with mystery's.
please make pics of all mark's.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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kcordell
.275 member


Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: lancaster]
      #122461 - 28/12/08 06:00 AM

Lancaster,

Agree with respect to the quality of the Collath. I have collected some photos for your commentary.

Many thanks for any insight you may have.

KC

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
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Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: kcordell]
      #122473 - 28/12/08 08:52 AM

ok, dont have so much time now but looks very fine. krupp laufstahl, nitro proof for the shootgun barrels- strong like......kruppstahl
7,7-57 and Mod.88 8 M.must be 8x57 IR Witten Excelsior steel!!!
shotgun barrel seems to be Teschner/Collath No.4, it is common practise to use the shotgun bore that fits

lets check the barrel diameter from competent gunsmith

looks like a best gun from germany

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Der_Jaeger
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Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: lancaster]
      #122474 - 28/12/08 08:55 AM


KCordell,

Exquisite rifle! Congratulations! I hope to own a double rifle in the near future.

--------------------

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kcordell
.275 member


Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122484 - 28/12/08 11:05 AM

Lancaster,

Thanks greatly for your reply. If there is any more information on Collath in general or my gun that you can share, it would be greatly appreciated. I cannot unfortunately find any data at all on these fine arms. It appears that there are a only a few folks that have knowledge on the topic.

Anyway, many thanks!

Der Jaeger,

Thanks for the compliment! They are around, tough to find, but they pop up now and then.



KC

Edited by kcordell (28/12/08 12:48 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: kcordell]
      #122497 - 28/12/08 05:52 PM

a mister Roth in germany has worked on a book about teschner-collath 10 years ago in germany but his computer crashed when he was close to end and he never make it again.
collath was the successor of teschner and use his action till world war 2.
the teschner gun startet around 1855-60 as a special kind of needle fire system. It had have the the needle in the cartridge base like you see on pic 2. this was the teschner priming and in produktion with other Tesco shotgun cartridges till the end.
pic 3 is from the 1914 catalog and it was lot of money in this time. i dont believe that the design changed after this.
pic 4 show the shotgun cartridges from the 1914 catalog. No 1 ,3 and 4 are the most common of the tesco cartridges. you see also cartridges with center fire tesco primer for using in the same guns.
german colour code for blackpowder shotgun cartridges was green and red for nitro, even the last RWS center fire black powder shotshell 30 years ago had have green shells.
the length for the tesco shells goes from 66 to 74 mm and the chamber must be conical to accept all length's.












the black is a 16/70 for comparison

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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kcordell
.275 member


Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: lancaster]
      #122557 - 29/12/08 11:46 AM

Lancaster,

Again, great data and thanks for sharing. I now see what you meant by a "conical" shell. It appears that is what I have and I guess I will have to live with the possibility of splitting 16 gauge polywad or whatever I have on hand.

Wonder if anyone in Europe is manufacturing the "conical" ammo?

Thanks again for your posts and sharing of expertise here. I really do like this arm quite a bit and cant wait to take it to the fields of the Dakotas next year.

KC

Edited by kcordell (30/12/08 07:54 AM)

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kcordell
.275 member


Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: kcordell]
      #124958 - 23/01/09 06:56 PM

I just fired my Collath and learned that C4 of the C4=8M (seen in pic above) means Collath #4 round. The gun fits me like a glove and performed flawlessly,,,,I LOVE IT. I should have guessed that it was in the Collath #4 but the 16 ga gamebore vintager round performed perfectly. As you can see the shell in the top pic, it was fire formed to the conical shape of a collath round. It was not mangled or split in any way.

I am now concerned that the 8M may be a Collath round. I will this weekend cerrosafe it to check..I hope it's 8x57JR.

Would anyone suggest shooting a regular 16 2.5" vintagers in this gun is dangerous or furthermore once fireformed should not be reloaded?

Thanks for your thoughts here.

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: kcordell]
      #125294 - 28/01/09 06:57 PM

your "collath" case looks great, mister collath himself would be proud. this firm chamber the 8x57R 360 , 8x57IR, 8x72R Brennecke and a special 8x72R Collath-Teschnerin the own guns. the last one looks like adown sized 9,3x72R Sauer&Sohn but is in the class of the 8x57R360, I suspect a lower pressure for building Drillings again ligther.

I read the stamps on your drilling this way: C.4=8m Mod.88 - Collath shotgun No.4 8mm Mod.88 is 8x57 IR

if so I have no fear to shot modern 16 ga ammo in it but would make a chamber cast of the shotgun barrels to see wich shell length can open up without problems

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (28/01/09 07:05 PM)

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: lancaster]
      #125295 - 28/01/09 07:02 PM

some pics of tesco catridges I found, notice the colour code









--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: lancaster]
      #125528 - 31/01/09 04:37 PM

It may have extractors for the larger early Mdl 88 ammo rims. I had a DR drilling with this, but it still caught enough of the smaller later design rim to extract. Lets hope it is an 8X57IR...the "88" would seem to say this.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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kcordell
.275 member


Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: kcordell]
      #157180 - 23/03/10 07:00 AM

Well I just returned from the Maryland Arms show with another Collath.. To make a long story short, I traded for this with a few odds and ends I brought to the show.

Anyway, the condition is great and the bluing is almost 90% on the Wittner C1 barrels over 9.3x82r. I could attribute the condition to the vet that brought it back found he could not use tradional 12 ga shells and the rifle ammo was not obtainable. Does anyone have load data for 9.3x82R? I see I can get brass from Bertram.

I am not sure what type of horn was used to make the extension on the butt and the trigger guard but fortunatly no worm holes.

I cant wait for the fall.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Collath Drilling and Arms [Re: kcordell]
      #157183 - 23/03/10 08:02 AM

The Teschner-Collath company of Frankfurt on Oder river continued up to WW2, but in the later years they made more conventional guns. Here is the Drilling my grandfather once bought new: On the outside it is signed by "Wilhelm Pieter in Halberstadt", the country gunsmith who retailed it. It has short 60cm =23" barrels in 12/12/7x57R. The Suhl proof date is 7/34 for July 1934. It was made "for the trade" by Collath, evidenced not only by the use of originally Collath patented features, the self-rising rear sight and Collath's barrel selector lever in front of the triggerguard, shown in the "rifle" position, but also by the TCF stamp under the barrels and on the action flat. I had the triggers altered, as originally the set equipped rear/left trigger fired the rifle barrel, other than all other Drillings I have used. Yes, it still sports the original Hensoldt 4x scope. It was restocked post-war, as the original butt was broken off by US troops in 1945. A very handy and fast gun with it's tang-mounted slide safety.






--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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