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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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470evans
.333 member


Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
12 bore Paradox at Christies
      #105794 - 22/05/08 01:22 AM

I just picked this up at Christies.

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5071933


I would be interested in loads that any of you have used in a 12 bore Paradox.

Thanks

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3486
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: 470evans]
      #105797 - 22/05/08 01:45 AM

The Paradox chapter in the 2nd edition of Graeme Wright's book is probably still the best source of load info available. Most of my mates follow those recipes, a couple of them contributed loads for the book.

Geez, under ten grand for a detachable-sidelock Holland Paradox, well done!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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peter
removed


Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: Marrakai]
      #105800 - 22/05/08 02:53 AM

congratulations that looks like a fine gun.

please post pictures when you get it.

best regards

peter

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: 470evans]
      #105828 - 22/05/08 09:48 AM

What will it be quail or buffalo? That is a great price on a very unique gun, congratulations. Give me a pm if you have trouble locating reloading supplies.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Nakihunter
.375 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: gatsby]
      #105834 - 22/05/08 10:23 AM

Nice gun. Congratulations.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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470evans
.333 member


Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: Nakihunter]
      #117360 - 21/10/08 10:28 PM

I thought I'd update you guys on my results for loading and shooting my Paradox that I picked up at Christie's. I was a bit nervous as I had never loaded for or seen a Paradox or cast any bullets. SZihn and Gatsby were a big help answering my questions and keeping me on track.

I received the gun in July and sent it to JJ to fix the right ejector. Meanwhile I purchased a 12ga mold from NEI and began to assemble components and casting equipment.

I used 20-1 alloy and the bullets as cast weighed 786grs, a little heavier than I would have wished for. Gatsby helped me with sizing dies and sent me a selection of different bullets to try as well.

My first efforts showed the gun preferred the 786grs solid bullets I cast wrapped with teflon tape as outlined in Wright's book sized to .735. With 20grs of Unique I got a nice group about 6 inches over point of aim at 900fps. I slowly moved up the charge and watched as the groups slowly moved down the paper. I settled with 23.5grs of Unique at 1045fps.

At 50yds I get a 2" 4 shot group right at poa and at 100yds I get about the same but need to use the second sight leaf.

Overall this has been a very pleasant experience and I'm looking forward to shooting some game this season with the gun.

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buckbrush
.300 member


Reged: 23/08/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Alberta
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: 470evans]
      #118145 - 02/11/08 02:32 PM

great gun and great shooting.

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Shots2
.224 member


Reged: 04/03/09
Posts: 3
Loc: Terrell, Texas
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: 470evans]
      #129264 - 11/03/09 08:09 AM

I have a 12 Ga. Holland cased with all accessories, in 3.25 Nitro Magnum. The rifle formerly belonged to C.A. Walker of the Irish Guards and he must have been a large fellow as it has a 15" length of pull, with a straight stock over a checkered butt. No butt plate or recoil pad. Total weight of the rifle is 8 lbs. and with a 3" Remington Mag shell it kicks like the devil. I want to hand load for it and have been able to obtain some 2.5" brass shells with boxer primer designed for large pistol primers. I have the original Fosberry Mold with the rifle that throws a 476 Gr Linotype cast bullet. The rifle by the way is a "best Grade" sidelock in 100% condition and probably hasn't been fired more then a dozen times in its life. I am concerned about the powder to use for the load because Unique may be too fast a burn rate and 4198 and 3031 would fill the case to a greater degree and perhaps give better combustion. I am also concerned about using a 2.5" brass case in a 3.25" chamber and whether that will cause a problem. On some of the other double rifles that I have I use dacron as a filler for my 500-450 #1 and my .577's but I would think that a card wad and or felt wad would be a better container for the Paradox. Does anyone have any suggestions? Any help that you can offer would be deeply appreciated.

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: Shots2]
      #129270 - 11/03/09 09:54 AM

Shots,
You are in need of some help. If you have a Holland Paradox, the original maximum case lenth would have been 2 3/4", even in a nitromagnum. Alloys used in a paradox should be no harder than 16 to 1 and bullets would have weighed in at 730grs or a tad more. Donot use modern slugs in your rifled choke paradox. What is the # sequence of your gun? There are loads using Unique and other shotgun type powders but you first need to ascertain just what load your gun was proofed for. You can PM me if you like.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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470evans
.333 member


Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: gatsby]
      #129286 - 11/03/09 12:42 PM

Shots2,

I would suggest contacting Gatsby as he was a tremendous help to me in getting mine up and running. I had plenty of experience loading for double rifles but this took it to the next level. I'm located in Dallas if I can be of help.

Good Luck.

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Shots2
.224 member


Reged: 04/03/09
Posts: 3
Loc: Terrell, Texas
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: gatsby]
      #129315 - 12/03/09 02:43 AM

Thanks ever so much for your reply and you are correct in that I need some help. I have been loading for BPC most of my life but this is unlike anything I have ever come across. It is s virtually new H & H paradox, cased, SN 11905 and has the original Holland label and loading paper in the top section. The loading label says it is a 3 1/4 nitro Magnum regulated for 4 3/4 drms Curtis and Harvey BP or 100 Gr of Cordite. I have shot in the past a few Remington 3" Magnum shells out of it but it is wicked. I would say it kicks about twice as hard as my Evans 577 3". I am at a loss as to whether to use 3" Rem paper hulls with a shotgun primer or use 2 1/2" brass 12 Ga shotgun shells with a boxer large rifle primer. My big concern is all the space in that shell as the loads that I seem to see are going to need some sort of filler to keep the small amount of powder down at the primer. Got any suggestions?
Don Swainbank

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Shots2
.224 member


Reged: 04/03/09
Posts: 3
Loc: Terrell, Texas
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: 470evans]
      #129317 - 12/03/09 02:51 AM

Thanks for your reply. I just moved from Dallas to our ranch in Terrell about 35 miles out on I20. I would love to discuss the Paradox Experience with you if you have some time as I'm at a loss about loading for this unique cartridge. I am communicating with Gatsby and deeply appreciate the help he is giving me. My contact numbers are below and if you're ever in the area I would love to get together with you. Thanks again.
Don Swainbank
office 972 524-2979
Ranch 972 524-1807
email: degagecorp@aol.com

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26526
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: Shots2]
      #129318 - 12/03/09 03:49 AM

Seyfried had an excellent article on a 12 bore H&H Hammer Parodox in Handloader or Rifle magazine some time ago. Just re-read it a while back. Remember it?

He was at a loss to get it to shoot well until he came across a sizer which made the bullets .001" larger than the bore size. From there, it was merely testing with different wad collums around 1,000fps that got it shooting properly.

I'd really like to test a Parodox with round balls. I think they'd increase the power considerably, as heavier loads than slugs would allow, would be needed to get the barrels to shoot together with the balls. Heavier loads means higher velocities, flatter trajectories and more killing/stopping power. One could easily load patched balls in such a gun's cases to adjust size according to the bore's dimensions.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: DarylS]
      #129370 - 12/03/09 06:30 PM

Ross is the man when it comes to rifled choke guns. He has several articles concerning the Paradox and Explora guns in DGJ including a reprint( or visa versa ) of the article you are speaking of.
I have heard of a paradox owner or two using round balls in their guns but I don't know the exact results.It is an interesting thought particularly with a 10 or 8. Ballistically, I think the use of a ball goes against the grain of Col. Fosebery's original concept. I think he believed the conical paradox style bullet to be far superior to the round ball extending both usable range and penetration. The paradox chokes also providing more useful shotgun patterns tighter than a traditional ball and shotgun. Leslie Taylor improved on that concept with the Westley Explora guns furthering the useful range and tightening the choke patterns somewhat.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26526
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: gatsby]
      #129401 - 13/03/09 07:41 AM

gatsby- I realize Fosebery's concept of the slug - but I'd personally much rather have a hardened round ball of 12 bore size travelling at 1,500fps, than a slug weighing 150gr. to 200gr. more at 900fps to 1,100fps - any day. The round ball will exit an Indian Elephant's head, while giving a point blank range of about 110 yards. (PB= no more than 2" above or below line of sight) Now, the slow moving slug does have some advantage over a round ball if make into one of Forsyth's 'shell's.

The use of a patched round ball was mentioned as an experiment as out of a 'bore' gun, within reasonable hunting ranges, it is superior in trajectory and provides adequate penetrtion. Hitting the right spot is of paramount importance.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 12 bore Paradox at Christies [Re: DarylS]
      #129420 - 13/03/09 12:05 PM

It is an interesting idea but I was just trying to follow the thinking of the day linearly.
I don't think you could get more than 150 to 200 fps or so more velocity in a 3 1/2 dram paradox with a round ball and you can't harden them. Leslie Taylor was quite an inovator and ballistician,Foresythe notwithstanding. Probably going to come down to lighter bullets higher velocity vs heavier bullets with a higher sectional density. I would like to try a ball in a 10 or 8 bore paradox gun.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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