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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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tarawa
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Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: dnovo]
      #107011 - 08/06/08 09:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Sepia,


Double rifles always have their little glitches. I guess that's why we love them.

Curl



My wife said that about men once. Of course she has horses, and they too have their 'little glitches.' Whomever invented the phrase 'healthy as a horse' must have been an idiot. They all seem to have 'leg problems' and they have four legs and vets are harder to find than a good doctor, and cost more.

Dave



Dave,
I know exactly what you mean. My wife has a thoroughbred and a mule.....they have 6 good legs between them. If it wasn't for them, maybe I could afford an old double!

--------------------
Life is for Service

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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: tarawa]
      #107018 - 09/06/08 01:38 AM

One has to watch our for the 'you got a DR, I got a new horse' gambit. They may cost the same to buy, but upkeep? Not even close. Dave (Out to the range with the H&H 500DPE and some home loads. Nothing blew up that wasn't supposed to.)

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
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Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: Bramble]
      #107019 - 09/06/08 01:46 AM

Quote:

Dave

I have never really understood this.
If one has an otherwise supurb best gun that it spoiled by having damaged barrels, either by neglect or just happenstance/accident. Why would it be a bad thing to return it to the makers or another skilled gunmaker who could replicate those barrels exactly.
If one accepts refinishing, then aside from the metal composition what has changed. Indeed how would one know ?
Just such things have been done to many guns long before the were "collectors" items and were still working tools.

For me it is like rejecting a vintage fararri because it has has an engine rebuild and the pistons have been replaced.
Now if somebody has bolted on a turbo and wide wheel arches then that is a different matter :-)

Regards



Sure, if you can get the barrels redone by the original maker, which may no longer be in business or the cost may be prohibitive versus the cost of getting one with better barrels to start with. A good gunsmith can fix virtually anything, reblack, repair wood, case colors, engraving, etc but build a new set of barrels? I guess, or one could order a new set of barrels from a good source, but then would a Rigby still be a Rigby with replacement barrels? Would you ever get your money out of it? I doubt it.

One can restore anything on a gun, except barrels that are pitted, worn out, or the like. That would be like restoring a Ferrari with a blown engine by putting in a Chevy. It used to be done, but left you with an undesirable mutt. Today, it is almost always possible to find the necessary parts to rebuild anything on a Ferrari. The body panels can be recreated by a good metal shop.

Can't do that on a DR. The barrels must be built and proofed, and that means a much different gun and even so, far too specialized for even a good restorer. You would have to send it off to H&H, WR etc and see if they would do a new set of barrels. A lot of time and money.

So if you want a 'working tool' 470 or the like, there are a lot of very good, current production DRs that will suit your needs for far less. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
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Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: dnovo]
      #107020 - 09/06/08 02:50 AM

Dear Dave

I absolutly agree nothing short of a perfect match would be acceptable. No Chevvy Ferraris.

But yes, for me those replacment barrels within the paramiters stated would not diminish the gun. There are few that could do it but they do exist.

Whether it would effect its collectors value is a matter for collectors. I am not one.

To me a gun which is 60 years old but perfect in all regards and never restored has value only as an item. It has never been used, has no acomplishments to its name. It is as much use to me as a beautiful virgin. Only good for unrealised enjoyment. Magnificant to look at though she may be.
I would rather prefer an acomplished 30 year old that has had to be tightened in her late 20's, as you say, ridden hard and put to bed wet

On a cost benifit analysis, again I am not in the collector market. But maybe £ 10,000 for that set of barrels and the re-finish. Now if the gun is action only but otherwise good what does it make from a first rate name. I don't know but you would.
I would still imagine that it could add up. Perhaps not for you guys at the very top end of the market, but it would find a home further down. And in another 40 years nobody will give a hoot as the untouched ones will be so rare.
Back to the vintage car secenario, people are buying total basket cases for almost the chassis number only and effectivly building new cars from the ground up as the truly concours examples have reached the stratosphere price wise.

I would rather see such historic guns saved with new barrel sets than see them decline further and reduce the pool of guns that was not huge to begin with.

But you are quite right, it would not make sense on a purely financial basis if one was only looking for a hunting gun.

Best Regards

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
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Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: tarawa]
      #107362 - 14/06/08 02:32 AM

Quote:

I don't want to get shamed or laughed off the board, but I have two Baikal O&Us and a Remington (Baikal) SxS. They are not English, French, German or custom built, but their all I can afford at this time.



TARAWA , never be embarassed about owning any double rifle, no matter how cheeply you paid for it! Many will never own a double rifle if they wait to own a Purdey side lock "BEST" rifle! Enjoy your rifles, and don't let anyone tell you they are not doubles simply because they didn't cost $40K!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: Sepia]
      #107363 - 14/06/08 03:01 AM

Quote:

Cpt Curl, you say that you were able to have your Merkel reregulated for the 286g bullet. How did you go about this?
I have discovered that my rifle is regulated for the same bullet despite my specific request and assurance at the time of ordering that it would be regulated for the 285g bullet. As you can imagine I am very not happy about this.



SEPIA , Before you go off half cocked shoot the rifle with 286 gr bullets! I have a model 140E 9.3X74R Merkel double rifle, that was regulated with the same bullet yours is, according to the paper work, but it shoots 286 gr bullets just fine! If the rifle you just bought is a model 141, then it has an adjustable regulation, and can be adjusted to any bullet weight you want.

With the example CptCurl was talking about with his gun shooting "wide" could possibly have been fixed by speeding the velocity up slightly to bring the two barrels together! I'd bet my hat, his wide barrel groups were high as well as wide, and a slight increase in speed would likely have brought them together, and lower at the same time.

Start with 66.0 grs of H-4831m with a 286 gr Nosler Partition, and work up slowly to a max of about 68 grs of H-4831. the ranges are between 2119 fps/ 33,400 CUP, to 35,800 CUP/ 2200 fps. I think you will find your sweet spot someplace in that range, then substitute other makes of bullets of the same weight, to see if they will all shoot well. If you can work up a load that shoots to the regulation with a 286 gr bullet without going to the considerable expense of re-regulating, you are money ahead. Not only that, but to get the best from your double handloading is must!

Good luck, and enjoy the affiction you have just contracted, because it is incurable! You blood tests will forever, from this day forward, show that you are DR positive! (Double Rifle positive)

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (18/06/08 11:40 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39720
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Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #107387 - 14/06/08 03:15 PM

Quote:

With the example NitroEx was talking about with his gun shooting "wide" ...



Who, what, where? Maybe someone else?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
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Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: NitroX]
      #107393 - 14/06/08 04:18 PM

I have some plans on shooting a buck with my 10 bore next season. I am still waiting for RCM to ship my brass which has been done 4 weeks ago
I am really hooked on getting a .577BPE or .500BPE hammergun, jones underlever for small game hunting. My No.10 is a little "overgun" for our game here, but ofcouse...in case of charging bucks, the No.10 ought to block their way towards me...hahahaha

Edited by rigbymauser (14/06/08 04:19 PM)

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nopride2
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Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #107437 - 15/06/08 02:01 PM

Deer with my Army Navy 577 2 3/4 bpe. Bison in September with my Purdey 450 31/4 bpe.

Dave

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: nopride2]
      #107479 - 16/06/08 04:12 AM

I have three doubles that I hunt with, a 45/70 side by side, a 20 gauge bore rifle side by side, and a 30-06 over and under Biakal. The 45/70 I built on a Beretta 409 crossbolt action and the 20 gauge was built on a Laurona crossbolt action.

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Bill_Cooley
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Reged: 14/12/06
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Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #107515 - 16/06/08 12:59 PM

On the subject of doubles with bad barrels. I have a friend who deals in doubles and he had a nice rifle come in I think it was a Armey/Navey in .303. The out side metal and wood were in nice condition but Some one had shot corrosive ammo in it and hadn’t cleaned it properly. You couldn’t keep 2 shots on the target at 50 yards. The ones that hit were key holing. The answer was to send it out and have it rebored to a larger caliber. I believe it was brought up to .375 flanged mag. I did see a target with 4 rounds in 1 ½ at 100 after it was complete.
This is a practice that has been going on since the early days when people would have their BP rifle freshened up by opening the bore a little and having a new ball or bullet mold made.
I wouldn’t hesitate to re bore a rifle that had bad barrels and was other wise structurally sound.
Bill

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
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Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: NitroX]
      #107668 - 18/06/08 11:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

With the example NitroEx was talking about with his gun shooting "wide" ...



Who, what, where? Maybe someone else?



Sorry about that, it was CaptCurl.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #107672 - 18/06/08 11:57 PM

Quote:

On the subject of doubles with bad barrels. I have a friend who deals in doubles and he had a nice rifle come in I think it was a Armey/Navey in .303. The out side metal and wood were in nice condition but Some one had shot corrosive ammo in it and hadn’t cleaned it properly. You couldn’t keep 2 shots on the target at 50 yards. The ones that hit were key holing. The answer was to send it out and have it rebored to a larger caliber. I believe it was brought up to .375 flanged mag. I did see a target with 4 rounds in 1 ½ at 100 after it was complete.
This is a practice that has been going on since the early days when people would have their BP rifle freshened up by opening the bore a little and having a new ball or bullet mold made.
I wouldn’t hesitate to re bore a rifle that had bad barrels and was other wise structurally sound.
Bill




Bill, the 303 doubles are mostly toast inside the barrels, because of the extencive use of military surplus ammo that was very carrosive, and no cleaning! The best chartridge to rechamber, and re-bore for is the 8X37JRS, It is rimmed like the 303 but the slightly larger case cleans out the old chamber, and the .323 bullet, of the JRS will clean out the old bore, in most cases. The chamber pressures are the same, and so re-proofing isn't necessary! Some of the old 303 doubles can be shot as is by simply loading the .318 bullets made for the 8X57JR in the 303 case. PWN375 has one that shoots well with the .318 bullets with no other change.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Sepia
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Reged: 04/08/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #107699 - 19/06/08 06:05 PM

Dugaboy,

Thank you for the reloading advice. I am assured by the importers that my rifle is regulated for the heavier 285g bullet. I won't have a chance to shoot it for another two weeks. But initially I will try it with RWS Geco loads. Are you familiar with this Factory load? The actual RWS 285g load that my rifle is regulated for is another type of round and retails for $30.00 more per box ($140.00) than the Geco. I am hoping that it will shoot ok. In the end I guess it is all fun and games.

My rifle is an entry level 140 model with ejectors, open express sights, no provision for a scope, double triggers and an English style stock.

You are right about being diagnosed DR Positive. Even though I haven't shot it yet, I wish I had one years ago.

Sepia

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93mouse
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Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 738
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: Sepia]
      #107703 - 19/06/08 06:29 PM

Sepia I shoot Geco 255gr factory for practice - shoots great - mine 140 was regulated with 293 TUG's. Geco is an accurate "cheap" stuff.

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dherr
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Reged: 17/06/08
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Loc: PA, USA
Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: Chasseur]
      #107846 - 22/06/08 12:57 AM

Does anyone out there know anything about H. Mahillon of Belgium. I understand he was a retailer. I have a nice double in 9x57R that I bought recently and it shoots 200gr Hawk bullets nicely. If he was a retailer, who made the gun for him, etc?
Thanks
Dave Herr

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: dherr]
      #107868 - 22/06/08 05:52 AM

Dave-

I have answered this question for you in the other thread where you asked it.
Look at your other thread for my note.

Also, you should start a new thread which presents this rifle to the whole group of NitroExpress. There will be other members here with much to say about your rifle when they see photos of it and detailed photos of the proof marks.

Thanks for posting!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Sepia
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Posts: 11
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Do you own/hunt a Double?? [Re: 93mouse]
      #108664 - 01/07/08 12:45 PM

93mouse, thank you for your reply about shooting the Geco ammunition. I am going to try some initially in my rifle. I would have replied earlier to you but I have been away, Pheasant and Partridge shooting so I hope that's a good excuse!

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