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9.3x57
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9.3 vs. 9.5...
#104991 - 14/05/08 01:34 AM

Reading Taylor, I am struck by the contrast he makes between the 9.3x62 {285 @ 2175} and the 9.5x56 {270 @ 2250}, both quite similar ballistics on paper.

Granted, I have my doubts as to whether he really had all the experience he claims in his books, but I do wonder if bullet construction of the original loads made for a more frangible 9.5/270 than was the 9.3/285. I've always wanted to test both bullets in my boards and jugs to see what was up.

A long shot probably, but does anyone have experience shooting game with vintage say, 1930's ammo in both/either of these calibers?

If so, thoughts???

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: 9.3x57]
#104993 - 14/05/08 01:49 AM

Puzzled me too. My meager experiences shows that most bullets when driven at low velocities, work very well or even over-penetrate. It's when driven at 2,500fps and over that problems with bullet integrity, surface.

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Daryl

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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: DarylS]
#104995 - 14/05/08 02:24 AM

Quote:

It's when driven at 2,500fps and over that problems with bullet integrity, surface.

Exactly.

So, ASSuming Taylor's experiences were legit, I wonder if the 9.5 bullets of the day were extremely thin-jacketed or otherwise disadvantaged in some really significant way in contrast to the 9.3's. In those days choices were few, and factory ammo the only stuff Taylor had experience with. Nevertheless, that 9.5 Mannlicher looks like a good round for bushveld hunting of general antelope and would seem to have nearly the same level of performance as the 9.3x62, at least close enough to be acceptable to Taylor even if not quite as highly regarded.

A couple of both bullets sectioned might help tell the tale...

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: 9.3x57]
#105002 - 14/05/08 03:37 AM

Yes- sectioning would answer some of the questions.
: In the early 1900's, there were a bunch of different ideas on bullet construction & most of them surfaced somewhere. A bunch of them had large splits on the nose of the bullet to promote rapid expansion. Of course, impact on heavy bone would cause these to fail and give a bad name to a round that otherwise perfoms admirably.
: It is intersting he notes the original 9.3x62 loading, which was barely faster than a 9.3x57, as being a super load and well liked all over Africa, whereas the newer German high velocity loading of 2,340fps not adding anything to the equation. These findings mirror Finn Aagard's much ore recent notes at well, concerning how little to zilzh difference there is in actual killing powder between a wide variety of rounds in the medium range, let alone how little difference a couple hundred fps velocity actually makes.
: It all boils down to shot placement & using an adequate round to do the job.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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88MauSporter
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: DarylS]
#105009 - 14/05/08 07:46 AM

I have also read Taylors books, and also another author of the same time (unfortunately I can't get to my library) with what seems like as much experience as Taylor. The general issues Taylor had with the Austrian and particularly German ammunition and bullet structure was reliability. This was just the opposite with most of their comments on British bullets and ammo.
I remember them speaking of overexpansion, jackets fragmenting and the bullet coming apart on thick skin or bone. The Large bore German and Austrian bullets of FMJ structure would bend and deflect rather than penetrating straight. There is a lot of mention of bullet form. Round nose and flat end round nose bullets traveling with the least deflection and the pointier or pointed bullet not holding true.
I guess as today, a good well constructed bullet will give good results and reputation and the poor one will be poor.
But, not having used any vintage ammo on game, can't say for certain.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Nakihunter
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: 88MauSporter]
#105012 - 14/05/08 08:48 AM

This is an awesome thread as I have both rifles in the "flesh".

I have not chronographed the 9.5 loads yet - just fired 3 shots at 25 meters to see if the open sights were usable with the bullets.

I find the recoil of the lighter 9.5X57MS a lot less than the heavier 9.3X62. I have a feeling that the 2250 fps claimed for the 270gr bullet in the 9.5X57MS is ambitious. The cartridge is a low pressure round & the 1910 MS rifle will not handle the same pressures as the Mauser 98.

I personally feel that the 9.3X62 is a lot more powerful on game out to 250 meters.

I hope to chronograph some 9.5X57MS loads in the next month or so & will let you know how I go.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: Nakihunter]
#105019 - 14/05/08 09:48 AM

Naki, thanks for posting.

I hope you can shed some bright light on the "mystery".

What ammo do you have for the 9.5 MS? Old stuff or handloads?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Nakihunter
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: 9.3x57]
#105034 - 14/05/08 02:24 PM

I got the 9.5X57MS cases from Buffalo arms & are RP 35 Whelen reformed cases. I am loading 270 gr Hornadys with 47 gr & 48 gr of AR 2208 (Varget) and & 250 gr Sierras with 50gr & 51 gr of the same. I might try AR2206 (similar to IMR 3031) if the velocity is too low with AR2208. Original ammo is almost impossible to get. I have 2 rounds of Kynoch & another 27 to get from the previous owner. Those will most likely stay as a collection. I am not sure if it is worth shooting the stuff that could be 50 years old or older.

Does anyone know of 9.5 head stamped cases at reasonable price? I see Horneber cases are available but quite expensive.

--------------------
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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: Nakihunter]
#105041 - 14/05/08 03:24 PM

Thanks Naki:

We 9.3x57 shooters can probably guesstimate the velocities you'll get, but I'll be interested in your actual chronographed loads. That shell sounds like a good one, particularly with the many good .375 bullets available. I think you will enjoy a lot of steaks stacked up with that gun. The 56/57 mm shell size offers a good mix of velocity and lack of recoil with the heavy-ish bullets in the 270-300 grain weights.

Do you have available the Hornady 220 and 225 and Speer 235 grain bullets there?

If you have a cruddy old corroded round and care to section the bullet in the interests of science, we'll sure love to see a picture of it!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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ChrisPer
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: 9.3x57]
#105050 - 14/05/08 06:24 PM

I have a 9.5x57 Mannlicher Model 1910 rifle in only fair condition.
It came with 2 pkts Eley red/yellow boxed solids and a few Eley SN rounds which I have fired off.

I load reformed Win 30-06 cases using RCBS dies from Huntingdons.
I have used the Woodleigh 270gn solids, on targets only, and ADI AR2208 powder - 42gns.
A while back I bought 100 Nosler 270gn RN solids, but have not tried them yet.

( http://www.thalesgroup.com.au/pdfs/sphg.pdf for ADI powder information)

The rifle is SWEET to shoot - almost as tame as a black powder rifle. I don't group it, or use a chronograph, so my data does not offer much help - sorry!

I also put in some effort trying to find a cast bullet load using bought 220gn .375 projectiles, but had serious trouble with gas blowback in most loads due to the projectile departing before the case expanded to seal the breech. I gave that up.

Edit: Bought it in Harare in 1998. Has express sights, and set triggers with the rear trigger removed.

Edited by ChrisPer (14/05/08 06:25 PM)

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JabaliHunter
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: 9.3x57]
#105065 - 14/05/08 09:32 PM

Quote:

So, Assuming Taylor's experiences were legit

and assuming he even had a chronograph...

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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: JabaliHunter]
#105085 - 14/05/08 10:48 PM

Quote:

and assuming he even had a chronograph...

Right on.

Hence my note above regarding factory ammo. He certainly had to rely on what he read in catalogues and on the side of cartridge boxes I suppose.

Due to the game and conditions in which I hunt here, these 56/57mm-capacity rounds all appeal a great deal to me. The 9x56, 9x57, 9.3x57, 9.3x53R, 9.5x56 all. Due to the wide range of bullets available in .375 caliber, I used to think the 9.5x56 was a candidate for a custom rifle as I have never even seen an original in-the-flesh, but now with the ability to resize .375 bullets to my 9.3, I have them PLUS all the 9.3's available for playing around with in my 9.3x57 rifles.

But with good bullets, and there are quite a few of those, that 9.5 looks like a winner!

Naki and ChrisPer: Interesting we have two 9.5's weighing in from Kiwiland and Aussieland. Was there some level of popularity for those rifles there or are they old "Indian stock" that migrated to your countries?

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Taylor416
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: Nakihunter]
#105086 - 14/05/08 11:00 PM

Nakihunter,

you are on the money, the 9.3 x 62 is a powerful cartridge, the 270 gn Speer on a high shoulder shot flattens buffalo without a step taken, i would sumise the same with a large deer such as Sambar, pigs hardly move, I have also shot about 3 red deer with the same effect. Truly a great cartridge. i've test fired a 9.3 x 57 but not used it on animals. 9.3 x 57 was good on pigs tho!

cheers
chris

--------------------
Love to hunt!

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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: Taylor416]
#105091 - 14/05/08 11:29 PM

Quote:

Nakihunter,

you are on the money, the 9.3 x 62 is a powerful cartridge, the 270 gn Speer on a high shoulder shot flattens buffalo without a step taken, i would sumise the same with a large deer such as Sambar, pigs hardly move, I have also shot about 3 red deer with the same effect. Truly a great cartridge. i've test fired a 9.3 x 57 but not used it on animals. 9.3 x 57 was good on pigs tho!

cheers
chris

The 9.3x62 is a great cartridge. Taylor IIRC beats up the 9.5 as having too little penetration. Must be as we have been discussing, a bullet issue as opposed to something inherent in the velocity, since the old x62 round was loaded to less velocity than the book said the 9.5 with its close bullet weight produced. Unless the 2250 fps cited for the 9.5 was VERY wrong or too fast for the bullets.

Naki and Chris' experience seems to indicate...?...that the 9.5 might be strolling along at much {?} less velocity than the 2250 Taylor cites, or the recoil would be similar to that of the 9.3x62. Except...is anybody now shooting a 9.3x62 at the old 2175 fps speed? Probably not? I don't own a 9.3x62, but those who do tell me it kicks a lot more than the 9.3x57. My 285 grain loads in my x57 are very close to Taylor's magic x62 number...as mine are going 2100 and recoil is mild.

What's more "in the defense of the 9.5x56"...

As a favor to my neighbor who couldn't get it to come home, I shot a 1,000 pound, wolf-crazed steer with a Hornady .375 270 grain Spire Point bullet resized to 9.3 in my x57. Shot struck the animal from below as it was about 70 yards higher than me and running. Bullet angled more or less behind the shoulder and thru and exited thru the offside ahead of the shoulder and higher. I don't know how to measure the penetration except to say it was "a lot". The critter dropped at the shot and rolled down the mountain toward me, bellowing all the way, flattening brush and small trees like a steam roller run amuck. At about 30 yards or so it got hung up on a serviceberry tree and I shot it again, this shot angling from below and behind thru the neck, also exiting.

The only gripe the owner had was that the shot thru the shoulder wrecked a lot of meat, something the round with Prvi's does not do on deer, elk and bear I've shot.

All that to say with the right bullets, that 9.5x56 didn't HAVE to be a loser, and it makes me wonder about Taylor's actual experience with it, unless the bullets really were bad, or the velocity far, far off from that stated.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: 9.3x57]
#105100 - 15/05/08 01:05 AM

Rod - my m98 in 9.3x62 put 286's out at 2,519 fps and 270's out at 2,675fps. There is little difference in felt recoil between those numbers and most .375H&H's. Factory ammo in that rifle, SAKO brand did not kick much at all, RWS286gr. at 2,340fps. That little extra 200fps does make a difference on the butt end.
; BTW - that SAKO ammo, loaded with the Speer 270gr. absolutely flattened an 8' grizzly at 25 yards range, frontal chest shot.
; My 9.3x57 makes 2,300fps with 270gr. Speers and 2,440fps with 232gr. Norma's using 48.0gr. and 52.0gr. H4895 respectively, in opened up 9x57 RP brass. I made some brass with '06 brass, but neck turned was a drag. The 8x57's form perfectly, no extra work other than fitting to the chamber.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Bramble
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: DarylS]
#105120 - 15/05/08 08:20 AM

93x57

I run my 9.3 x 62 at those old velocities 286 @ 2200.

I found it very pleasent to shoot on my trip a few monts ago and it killed very well. The bullets (woodleighs) performed beautifully.

I like to balance the power of a cartridge with the weight of the gun. If I want more gun then I want more weight as well.
I am not frightened of recoil but I find that it is detrimental to good shooting. For me at least I have no desire to practice with a gun that is unpleasent to shoot.
The only thing that I run over factory velocities is my 6mm BR Norma. But then that is a long range precision instument and weighs over 11lbs with bipod anyway.

Regards

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Nakihunter
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: Bramble]
#105126 - 15/05/08 09:33 AM

I got this info today from the US

quote <<".....9.5x57 brass re-formed runs $162.50 per 100, properly headstamped brass - Horneber (out of Germany)runs $295.00 per 100.

Reed's Ammunition & Research, LLC
www.REEDSAMMO.COM
Ron Reed
1209 SW 129th ST
Oklahoma City, OK 73170
5-73-027-07-9G-01978....." >> quote

-----------------------------
A few other points

The 9.5X57MS with 270 gr bullets will not penetrate as well as the 9.3X62 simply because the 375 bullet of 270 gr weight or less has a lower sectional density. The 9.3 bullet is "fat & long" compared to just the "fat" 375s. This lack of penetration was a well known characteristic of the cartridge in both India & Africa. It was never popular as a DG round though I am sure some hunters did kill everything up to elephant with it. It was a popular meat getter & probably seen as an expensive upper end gun (MS rifle) / cartridge used by wealthy hunters.

To answer 9.3X57's question - My rifle came out of the tea plantations of Ceylon & South India. That was added nostalgia as I started my career in 1981 as a Tea Planter in Assam & then moved down to South India. ChrisPer says he bought his rifle in Zim.

There is one on auction here in NZ this Saturday. I am not sure what condition it is in.

The 9.5X57MS is certainly a joy to shoot simply because of the MS rifle action. It would be a better pig & deer round simply because the rifle is light & very handy. The 9.3X62 would be my choice for Aussie buffalo & African plains game.

When I do go on my dream African PG hunt I will definitely take my Simson 9.3X62. The dilemma is about the second rifle - should it be the 9.5X57MS, the 6.5X54MS, the Sako 280 Ackley or the Kimber 7mm08? Being an African dream it will have to be one of the MS rifles - unless I buy a double rifle!

--------------------
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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: Nakihunter]
#105134 - 15/05/08 10:35 AM

Interesting stuff.

Bramble, FWIW you are running your x62 at exactly 100 fps more than I run my x57 and the 286/2100 loads have worked very well for me on deer, bear and elk {and coyotes and ground squirrels, too!

}.

I've seen the pix of yours and you obviously do very well with it! I agree 100% with your whole post.

Along those lines, I think a light MS 9.5 would be a delight for our country here. I spent the day today hiking, skiing and grunting over a whole bunch of country and a lot of elevation looking for bear sign and I spent a bit of time mulling over Naki's and ChrisPer's 9.5 Mannlichers...

Naki, when I test bullets, one of the things I find is that if the construction type is identical the longer ones normally penetrate deeper, but if the construction is different, the "harder" bullet goes deeper. Meaning, a .375/270 MIGHT penetrate deeper than a .366/285 depending on velocity and bullet construction. I have a hunch, but do not know, that the old vintage 9.5/270's were very thin jacketed, and if so, that might explain their supposed lack of penetration.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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ChrisPer
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: 9.3x57]
#105142 - 15/05/08 12:00 PM

Quote:

Naki and ChrisPer: Interesting we have two 9.5's weighing in from Kiwiland and Aussieland. Was there some level of popularity for those rifles there or are they old "Indian stock" that migrated to your countries?

In my case I was working in Zimbabwe and took the opportunity to buy a souvenir classic 'African hunting rifle' with express sights. I saw two other beautiful Mannlichers still with steel buttplates kept in one family, one a 9.5 and one a 6.5. And I saw two 9.5 beaters, mine and one other, in a gunshop. The one I didn't buy had two packs of Kynoch ammo as well. Sadly, its stock had been replaced with a Ruger M77 stock - I like them but the cognitive dissonance was terrible.

I saw many amazing collectors items in Harare.

Australian shooting as a whole just isn't that kind of market. Until 1970 or so, the SMLE .303 was the king. Farmers and roo shooters had Winchesters (generally M92) and Savages, at the most.
Edit: thats way oversimplified of course, but in general we were not a big game market in any way; but maybe NitroX or Marrakai know of the exceptions.

Edited by ChrisPer (15/05/08 12:20 PM)

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NitroX
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: 9.3x57]
#105195 - 15/05/08 10:09 PM

Quote:

All that to say with the right bullets, that 9.5x56 didn't HAVE to be a loser, and it makes me wonder about Taylor's actual experience with it, unless the bullets really were bad, or the velocity far, far off from that stated.

Almost certainly his conclusions were based on results with the ammunition he had on hand at the time. He also reported the 10.75x68 was inadequate on dangerous game. Again because the 350 gr ammo was too fragile. With some modern makers making good 350 gr DG projectiles that is no longer a problem.

BTW Harry Manners also disliked the 10.75x68 and sold his to buy a (couple of) .375 H&Hs in Winchester 70s.

Remember before the days of hand loading the perspective was different. If the only available ammo for a calibre was all crap or inadequate, the rifle became so as well. Nowadays this appears to be an absurd way of judging a rifle. Because if we don't like the ammo available, if we shoot it at all, we just choose a different bullet to reload in it ourselves. Not so in the first half of the 20th Century.

***

I had a chance to buy a Mannlicher Schoenauer in 9.5x57, and another in 6.5x54. I had never heard of the 9.5mm round then, but the guy owning the rifle used it on fallow in Tassie and Sambar in Vic. Personally I think it would make a great brush or driven medium game cartridge but would prefer something more on dangerous game. I didn't buy the rifles becuase 1. $$$, and 2. they were half stock rifles not MS carbines. Was very tempted though.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroX
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: ChrisPer]
#105197 - 15/05/08 10:15 PM

Quote:

Naki and ChrisPer: Interesting we have two 9.5's weighing in from Kiwiland and Aussieland. Was there some level of popularity for those rifles there or are they old "Indian stock" that migrated to your countries?

93x57

Not quite rare I believe. Usually "continental heritage" guys have them ie Austrians!

Quote:

In my case I was working in Zimbabwe and took the opportunity to buy a souvenir classic 'African hunting rifle' with express sights. I saw two other beautiful Mannlichers still with steel buttplates kept in one family, one a 9.5 and one a 6.5. And I saw two 9.5 beaters, mine and one other, in a gunshop. The one I didn't buy had two packs of Kynoch ammo as well. Sadly, its stock had been replaced with a Ruger M77 stock - I like them but the cognitive dissonance was terrible.

I saw many amazing collectors items in Harare.

Some good buys and nice rifles come up in Zimbabwe for sale currently, because of the need for cash from the 'problems'.

Great to see you acquired a "souvenir" classic African rifle!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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ChrisPer
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Re: 9.3 vs. 9.5... [Re: NitroX]
#105516 - 18/05/08 11:22 PM

Still kicking myself about it, I passed up a Westley Richards Farquarson .450 for USD 3000 in Bulawayo. Too much $ for me, but I was told afterward by another owner, a well-known local, that it was a bargain.

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