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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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chuck375
.333 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick
      #103761 - 28/04/08 11:15 AM

Well decision time is here. My rifle's at AHR having some work done and this would be the time to rebarrel it from 375 H&H. I figure I can load the Capstick down to 470 Nitro levels or the 500 Jeffery down to 500 Nitro levels for elk hunting until I get to Africa. Any advice?



Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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GarBy
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Reged: 20/12/04
Posts: 39
Loc: Florida, USA
Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: chuck375]
      #103822 - 29/04/08 09:48 AM

Chuck, I am highly biased here as I have a Heym 500 Jeff on order. I did some pretty extensive research before I ordered that caliber. I think the round fills the "big bore" bill to a T. I'm loading it to about 2200-2250 fps as I feel that's plenty without beating me to death and slowing follow-ups....if needed.

Good luck on your choice.

Gary

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JTOMLINSON
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Reged: 16/02/05
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Loc: York, England
Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: chuck375]
      #103839 - 29/04/08 08:19 PM

Chuck

Without rehearsing the obvious, as your rifle is already .375 it would be more economical to stay with the .532 bolt face of the .470 Capstick than to have to have further work done to open up to the .500 Jeffery rim, that said the work is none to difficult for an experienced riflemaker nor is it difficult to get the short fat .500 cases to feed, it just takes time and plenty of patience.

I Had a similar conversion myself some years ago and having ensured the rifle will feed with both soft and solids from both sides of the magazine reliably at the conversion stage I have not had any issues since.

I have no experience with the Capstick round but can say that using the same case size and having a Lott conversion would be a good way forward, it will do all you need, is available in more factory loadings than previousoly ( and than is the Capstick), is so close in performance terms to the capstick (on paper) that I seriously doubt you, or the animal would notice the difference on impact.

You would also, depending on the action / magazine box in use, gain the extra capacity in the magazine of the smaller diameter case. My own .500. like those made by Leonard for Jeffery holds but 3 rounds in the magazine, when it used the .532 diameter cases it held 4 in the magazine, possibly of little consequence to you but stil nice to have that extra capacity, especially for use in Africa. Of course there is an argument that if 3 rounds of .500 don't settle matters then you are in deep s**t, true enough.

The choice at the end of the day is yours, I love my rifle now it is a 500 Jeffery, then again I liked the 458 Lott, both are great stoppers.

Just my 2 cents.

jonathan

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #103851 - 29/04/08 11:08 PM

Thanks all for your advice, the estimates came back from AHR and were too steep for my blood this year (kid expenses, college, etc.) so I'm back to the original plan of waiting until next winter to rebarrel. If I decide I really want a 500 Jeffery, it would be cheaper probably to sell my 375 and buy one, as opposed to a Capstick being a relatively easy conversion (rebarrel with a heavier contour, a little work on the ramp/rails. But I guess we'll put that one off until December ... sigh ...

Regards,
Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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JTOMLINSON
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Reged: 16/02/05
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Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: chuck375]
      #103873 - 30/04/08 03:16 AM

Chuck

God willing there is always a tomorrow and you can give the matter plenty of thought and look at whats out there in the meantime.

Another expense with the conversion to 500 you considred and that I failed to mention was not only open up the bolt face but also widen the magazine box and feed rails to take the fatter case, in some rifles this expense alone would prove too great to warrant the exercise hence your plan to sell the rifle and buy a .500 outright.

Seriously do look at the .458 Lott or even a CZ Amercian in .505 Magnum (Gibbs), with some after market work to stock reinforcing these rifles work well and offer better cost option than making a rifle not designed for .500 into such.

Again just my thoughts

Jonathan

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #103888 - 30/04/08 08:43 AM

Thanks, good advice Jonathan. If I decide on the 470 Capstick, I'll have my current rifle rebarrelled locally. If I want something bigger, I think I'll save up for a Heym or another out of the box solution.

Regards,
Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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Anonymous
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Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: chuck375]
      #169109 - 07/10/10 12:56 PM

500 Jeffery hands down.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
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Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: chuck375]
      #169110 - 07/10/10 01:25 PM

Quote:

Well decision time is here. My rifle's at AHR having some work done and this would be the time to rebarrel it from 375 H&H. I figure I can load the Capstick down to 470 Nitro levels or the 500 Jeffery down to 500 Nitro levels for elk hunting until I get to Africa. Any advice?



Chuck



Are you absolutely 110% certain that AHR can make a .500 Jeff feed flawlessly and perfectly? If not, then don't even think about it or you will end up with a box of junk parts like a lot of other people who hoped for a .500 jeff.

Instead, get a .500 A-Square. Cheaper brass, made by Norma (good quality), easier to get to feed.

You can load a .500 A2 or a .500 Jeff down to 45-70 if you want.

The .470 capstick is excellent and I am a great fan of it. It is the equivalent of a 458 Lott.

article:

http://huntnetwork.net/modules/wfsection/html/Ah.470%20Capstick%20Perspectives.pdf

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: 500grains]
      #169129 - 07/10/10 11:32 PM

Being a classics fan I would go for for the Jeffery if it can be done well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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RigbyUser
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Reged: 23/11/08
Posts: 65
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: NitroX]
      #169319 - 11/10/10 12:56 AM

Geez, no contest, the 500 Jeffrey hands down any day of the week. Significant step up on the 470 Capstick in my opinion.
Feeding on the Jeffrey can be problematic, mine took a number of goes and the smiths did some wonderful things, but in the end it feeds very reliably....to the point that it's use on DG is done with great confidence.

The simplest solution is the inline magazine, usually 2 down and one up the spout. Mine is staggered and carries 4 down. They are harder to get to feed staggered but it can be done, just more work, which generally means more expense.

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: RigbyUser]
      #169343 - 11/10/10 08:38 AM

Personally I would choose the .458 Lott with either 500gr or 550gr over the .470 Capstick and the .500 Jeffery with 535gr (better SD). I would pick the Jefferey if I could a) handle the recoil and b) planned to shoot 600gr bullets. Another option is the .495 A-Square with a 600gr

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
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Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #169400 - 12/10/10 04:23 PM

I'm shooting 570g TSX's at a leisurely 2300 fps out of my 12 lb (with scope)CZ 500 Jeffery. Recoil is not an issue offhand, kneeling or sitting (except for having to get back up lol). I've learned to use a lead sled from the bench. It's taken some tweaking by both the CZ Custom Shop and AHR to get it to feed 100% reliably. If I had to do it again, I would have probably saved up and bought a custom rifle in the caliber, but I've had a lot of fun with this rifle! It's very accurate, comfortable and a hoot to shoot! I'm looking forward to taking it to Africa and Alaska in the next few years.

My CZ 550 500 Jeffery on the work bench:




My friend holding it (he's a big guy):




A 3 shot group with 570g TSX at 2300 fps at 50 yards:





Regards,

Chuck

Edited by CptCurl (16/10/10 10:53 PM)

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JabaliHunter
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Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: chuck375]
      #169403 - 12/10/10 06:13 PM

Very nice!

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RigbyUser
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Reged: 23/11/08
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #169693 - 16/10/10 05:38 PM

JabaliHunter,

The whole SD thing is a bit of "bollocks" if you excuse the French.

I fell for that trap and went with 535's, 570's and some 600 grain bullets on a buffalo hunt. I was in a position to shoot numerous animals and thought a great opportunity to try the different bullet weights.

With the 535 Solids I couldn't get any to stay inside a Buffalo. These were driven at 2360 fps out of my 22.5 inch barrel.
The softs folded a number of buff most emphatically and achieved over a meter of penetration. They expand to about an inch by the way. (These were Woodleigh RN and PP ). The PP's probably went 20% deeper.

The 570 grainers went another 10% (maybe) in penetration. Again Woodleigh's. These were doing 2280 fps. The 600 grainers were pushed to about the same speed as the 570's, penetrated about the same distance, but kicked and moved the rifle round lots more. ( Not sure they made any difference on the buff )

The Jeffery made it's reputation with the 535 grain bullet. Current users, like Tony Sanchez Arinho an Harold Wolf continue to use the 535 grainer on elephant and African buff. I used mine on Asian Water Buffalo, Scrub Bulls and large boar. It was absolutely emphatic and in no way could you suggest it lacks penetration with the 535 grain bullet.

Excuse the long diatribe, but I have done it with this cartridge and am keen to set the record straight.

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: RigbyUser]
      #169745 - 17/10/10 12:17 PM

I'm sure you're right, but I wanted to use the Barnes banded solids and figured the 570g banded solids and TSX's would make a nice matched pair of bullet types. They shoot very well out of my rifle and the recoil is manageable.

Thanks,

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

Edited by chuck375 (17/10/10 12:21 PM)

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: RigbyUser]
      #169778 - 18/10/10 12:51 AM

RigbyUser - Can't argue with your experience. I was just posting what I would choose if starting from fresh - the most important thing is that the rifle shoots the bullet accurately and the bullet has sufficient penetration.

However, I don't think what you post above disproves the SD thing. My personal opinion is that large calibre solids are rarely justified on buffalo so I'm not surprised you got pass throughs, but you can't compare 535gr solids with 570gr softs. I would agree though that if you found that the 570s shot best in your rifle, then you found the best solution for you and your rifle.

Good hunting!

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
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Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #170204 - 25/10/10 04:12 AM

There's no doubt that the 535g Woodleigh softpoints and solids are both the traditional loads for the 500 Jeffery and that they work well in most situations. The question is whether they are optimal for all expected dangerous game situations and do they shoot well in your particular rifle. I've only used my 500 Jeffery shooting 570g TSX's at 2300 fps on one deer (at 250 yards) and one elk (at 35 yards) so far due to recent health issues and can attest that the 570g TSX both opens up at longer range lower velocity (based on the exit wound channel) and holds together as one would expect for complete penetration at close range in both cases. Since the 570g TSX was designed for the 500 NE at velocities of 2100 fps or lower and it's solid copper construction or one would expect this. My initial concern using the TSX was would it expand regularly, that was not a concern with the Woodleighs.

Not being fortunate enough yet to shoot a cape buffalo with mine, but going on recommendations from multipe experienced hunters and PHs, the concern expressed with the 535g Woodleigh softpoints at 2400 fps on brown bear frontal shots from PHs at close range was penetration (not expansion or them holding together which they seem to do a fabulous job of), similarly for cape buffalo at less than optimal angles. For broadside shots, I don't think anyone has had an issue with the Woodleigh softpoints. Coming into this fresh, I began by loading 535g Woodleigh softs, migrated to the TSX's which shot better in my rifle and then tried the new Swift A-Frame 570g softs but they didn't feed well in my rifle. So I've settled on the 570g TSX's at 2300 fps until experience leads me down a different path. I envy your real world experience on buffalo and perhaps based on it, I may bring both 600g Woodleigh PPs at 2150 fps as well as 570g TSX's as softpoints if I can get them to shoot to the same point of impact or close to it when I go on safari. I intend to do a two buffalo safari in Tanzania once my health improves.

Best Regards,

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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RigbyUser
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Reged: 23/11/08
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Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: chuck375]
      #170315 - 26/10/10 05:42 PM

Chuck,

Wish you the very best with your health issues mate....get well soon and get to Africa. Nothing like having something brilliant to look forward to when your a little ill, health tends to want to improve on its own. LoL

With the 500 Jeffery, agreed, use what works in your rifle, clearly terminal performance is these rifles is everything, we are talking DGR after all, BUT reliability in feeding is just as important. Accuracy.....well I'n not so sure. I would argue anything up to 3 -4 MOA is probably adequate for these functions. Jeez, we're normally shooting things as big as a SUV at 20 yards !!

Being mad shooters we tend to want our DGR's to shoot like vermin rifles ( and there's not a lot wrong with this ), BUT I wouldn't be that fussed should things not work out that way. For the record, my 500 shoots ragged holes at 50 and 100 yards with the previously mentioned loads so I tend to be rather blase about the whole thing.

Either way, get well, load the big Jeffery and enjoy Africa, best of luck with it mate.

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chuck375
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Re: 500 Jeffery or 470 Capstick [Re: RigbyUser]
      #170322 - 27/10/10 12:06 AM

Thanks so much! Once I get healthy I'd love to come to Australia and shoot some of those water buffalo too! I envy your experience.

Best Regards,

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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