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Woodbeef
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Loc: Badlands of Alberta
Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on?
      #103279 - 23/04/08 11:43 AM

From what I can find,it is an even better cartridge then the 358Win is. So why is it so over looked?

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #103284 - 23/04/08 12:12 PM

Good question.

I don't know.

The 9.3x62 is gaining a real foothold in the USA, while the hoary-old, US-concocted .35 W staggers around like a gutshot marmot.

How come?

I don't know.

Good bullets are available, cases are a cinch, factory rifles have been made available, it is a sure-fire killer and it has been around for donkey's years.

It is a GREAT round, and really deserves more attention, but for some reason most fellows seem to find it as enticing as Hillary in a G-string.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Huvius
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103293 - 23/04/08 02:10 PM

Agreed.
.35 Whelen is as good as you need in the US. Really a classic in my book.
Amazing what you can spin off from the humble 30'06 case...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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xausa
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103294 - 23/04/08 02:11 PM

I suspect that it's because it hasn't a belt and is not referred to as a magnum.

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Nakihunter
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: xausa]
      #103296 - 23/04/08 02:26 PM

The reasons IMHO are follows

1 The 358 win does almost the same as a 35 Whelan with 225 gr bullets in a short action or a lever action. Even that never caught on much. Ruger & Browning still sell a few 358 Wins but not many 35 Whelens.
2 The 250 gr bullet is the largest commonly available in 35 cal. Occasionally one sees 275 grs. The barrel twist is too slow for larger bullets.
3 Compare this with the 9.3X62 - this cartridge is an "improved" Whelen that gives 175 fps more velocity with 250 gr bullets. It shoots 286 gr bullets easily. It can even shoot the 320g Woodleighs at 2100 fps.
4 Europe & Africa have used the 9.3X62 for over 100 years & it is still very popular.
5 The 338 Win Mag has probably taken some of the interest away.

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Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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Paul
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #103307 - 23/04/08 08:28 PM

It may have a looping trajectory, but for sambar in thick Victorian bush I can think of nothing better than a Remington pump in .35 Whelen - except maybe a db .375 magnum, if it were light enough.

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Plains99
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Paul]
      #103319 - 23/04/08 11:27 PM

The problem with 35 Whelen and 9.3X62 in the states is like has been said, there isn't a lot of room for either. 270, 30-06, 338, 308, 45-70 and other rounds blend together to pretty much fill all voids so the stuff never was pushed by American gun manufacturers and ammunition is generally not commonly available. When I can go to the local retailer and easily get the other rounds, these rounds are not generally considered no matter how good they are. We've had a lot of new ammunition introductions (especially the short magnums)in the last two years and no matter how good they may be, most of them will never catch on.

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szihn
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Plains99]
      #103321 - 23/04/08 11:55 PM

You know guys, this is not the first time I have read that the 35 Whelen is not very popular and didn't catch on. I hear it from all over the USA and even in Canada.

However, I live in Wyoming, and we have lots of elk and LOTS of grizzlies, and the 35 Whelen is quite popular here!

Maybe we are just a small 'hold-out' for the cartridge. I can't say, because I have not asked about this issue directly until now.
So.........
As an open question to all readers:
Do you or any one you know use or hunt with the old 35 Whelen?
I know 5 of them just in the town of Riverton (Population 9,000) and 2 more in Shoshoni
(population . four hundred). I know of 3 men in Montana that love their 35 Whelens (one of which is a Browning M-1895 which I rebarreled to 35 from a 30-06 many years ago).
I know one man in Idaho who owns one, and one in Las Vegas Nevada who loves his. He hunts with it in Colorado every year.

So, chime in here guys and let me know what you know.

Steve

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: szihn]
      #103325 - 24/04/08 12:26 AM

Great question, Steve:

I do not know a single fellow who uses one here in our county and really, we have absolutely perfect country for the .35 Whelen with elk, deer and bear in thick timber and up till recently only occaisional clearcuts. Have never heard of anyone using one here tho obviously there might be.

A friend of mine bought one back in the mid-80's, a Remington. Remington used a slow twist rifling in those guns, as, I think (?) did Ruger in their's. He wanted to use heavier bullets and decided to get rid of it. Not sure what the accuracy potential was as I never monkeyed with it much.

For years I thought a Springfield sporter in .35 Whelen would be a neat project, a kind of retro gun in a very useful caliber. Then I bumped into the 9.3x57 and now I doubt I will pursue the .35.

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #103329 - 24/04/08 01:38 AM

Quote:

From what I can find,it is an even better cartridge then the 358Win is. So why is it so over looked?



: Overlooked by whom?
: The .35 Whelen is resonably popular round here by hunters who know the value of descent weight of bullet on moose and bear. There are more .35 Whelens than .358 Win or .356's ior .35 Rems for that matter.
: As Steve said, in areas where there are moose and bear, the round holds some popularity. The .358 Winchester really doesn't come close to matching it - power or popularity. The lack of a broad range of bullet weights and styles hurts the .35 Whelen somewhat, but it does just fine out to my limits of 300 yards using even 250gr. SemiRound noses. Bullet shoice is better these days with Barnes, etc. I do wish Hornady had kept making the 280gr. RN's in .358". They did well in my .358 Norma.
: In comparrison, the .358 makes about 2,250fps with 250's while the .35 Whelen does 2,550fps to 2,650fps. Recoil is much less than a .338 WMag., however the .338Mag. beats the popularity of the .35 Whelen around here.
: Considering that Remington is one of the very few who chamber a rifle for the round, it does quite well. There are more re-barreled 98 Mausers up here in .35 Whelen than Remingtons.
: There are also a few 9.3x62's, even though ammo is unavailable here for that one. All the stores stock .35 Whelen ammo.
: Those of you who think the .338/06 can deliver higher velocities with same weight bullets at the same pressure, you need to study pressure and expansion ratios a bit more.
: Do I have one, no - have something better, a .375/06IMP. A Gibbs reamer was used to cut the body of the chamber so it has 3to4gr. more capacity more than a normal AckImp. Much better, but kicks like it as well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #103334 - 24/04/08 02:52 AM

Daryl, You bring up the 338/06 which is also very popular with Wyoming hunters. However, I have found that all the 338/06 shooters load their own, and many 35 Whelen shooters shoot factory ammo.

I made a 35 Whelen on a Springfield action for a good friend a few years back. It's a bit of an odd-ball. I made a semi-scout" It's got a 19" barrel and a laminated stock with a patchbox like a "Kentucky Rifle" and that patchbox holds a combo tool, an oilier and a sectioned cleaning rod and brush. That little rifle is about the ideal weapon for hunting in steep mountains where the main game animals are elk moose and large bears. I have a 1-12" twist in it and it shoot 250 grain Hornady Round Nose bullets into MOA groups. He’s a handloader. My friend Clay said he'd sell his house before he's sell his 35 Scout.
I will see if i can get some pictures of it. It's not the type of rifle I build for a living, but as I said, this was a project for a friend.

I expect to see Clay again soon, and I'll have him bring it over so I can get some pics. It's a little beat up (all rifles used in the steep country get that way) but it's still a very nice and fast handling rifle, and gets lots of comments wherever he shows it.
Steve

Edited by szihn (24/04/08 02:55 AM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: szihn]
      #103380 - 24/04/08 08:51 AM

Surprise!!

Load the 35 Whelen with a 280 gr Swift Aframe to 2300-2350 and you have a real killing machine if you do your part.

Great caliber!! Super bear caliber!

Too bad the 35 calibers are orphans here in the states.Standard size action, light weight,easy to reload--I like em!! I am rebarreling a custom mannlicker to a 35 Whelen!!

Basically it is a downsized smaller brother of the 375 H&H without the long action, increased weight and handling issues of the bigger cartridge.Is it a 375? Nope--but is it lethal enough for NA game?? Absolutely!!

So what's not to like??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Con
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103382 - 24/04/08 09:50 AM

Like the 358Win ... its an enthusiast's cartridge. When I built my 358Win, I was floored to learn it was my gunsmiths most used reamer!

The 35Whelen wasn't exactly fully suported by Remington, even though it made them a tidy profit exceeding their expectations in sales. Apparently the only Remington Classic that out sold the 35Whelen was the 300Wby in what was a 25 calibre line up.

Remington pulled the spitzer 250gr loading leaving just a 250gr RN and 200gr spitzer ... confirming their view that its a brush and medium game cartridge, which in reality its not! The use of the 1:16" twist also hamstrung it with the heaviest projectiles that make it the equal to the 9.3x62.

It might not be popular ... but I know of 2 for sale locally that I'm trying hard to find the cash to buy ... a Rem700 Classic and an M17 convert. Hopefully, they'll join the 358Win and 350RemMag in the safe, then I need to see about grabbing a Miroku MLR in 358Win that's also for sale.
Cheers...
Con

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Con]
      #103389 - 24/04/08 12:27 PM

Calibres like 35 Whelen and 338/06 have two hurdles.

Firstly there is the 338 Winchester and 375 H&H. The 375 is the start of the big bores and has all the things a 375 just has. The 338 offers about the most power in rifles that are built and priced like 7mm Remingtons and it also offers good velocity.

The above means the 338/06 and 35 Whelen will never be big in the popularity stakes. The only way a calibre can be a commercial success if it is a small seller is if it can be sold at high prices and the 35 Whelen won't bear the big prices. The 30/378 and 378 Wbys etc are obviously very small sellers but they bear very high prices for ammo and cases.

I think when the average shooter steps up above the 30 calibre he likes to see a bigger cartridge than the 30/06.

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Woodbeef
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Loc: Badlands of Alberta
Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #103416 - 24/04/08 08:15 PM

So then,why is it that a good performing cartridge only has pockets of popularity? Is it the magnumitis of North America? Have the spin-doctors convinced enough purchasers that they must only have only the newest belted offerings,or be laughed out of the bush? Has the magnum-mothership abducted most of the new buyers and turned them into belted magnumoids? I'm finding myself more and more every day,coming around to Daryl's way of thinking on belted calibers.

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Con
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #103418 - 24/04/08 09:01 PM

Woodbeef,
Pockets of popularity are also dependant on what game is hunted. In Victoria (Australia) its reasonably popular because of the popularity of hunting Sambar deer (elk sized) in rugged terrain. The banning of semi-autos probably assisted as a Rem7600 in 35Whelen (as opposed to a 30/06 or 308 Woodmaster or BAR) is a fine hound hunting rifle with quick repeatable shots avaialable. Being squeezed by the 338WinMag and 375H&H doesn't help either ... particularly if you have dreams of hunting Africa where 375H&H can be a mandated minimum for dangerous game. The 338Federal has shown that the world hasn't gone totally "magnum" mad. But the boosted velocities with pixie powders will also never be seen in the 35Whelen or 358Win due to older Springfield/M95s/Savage99's etc still floating about.

I'd support Daryl 100% in wishing a 275gr-280gr projectile was on the market and available ... Woodleigh may produce such a projectile in RN configuration if enough interest was shown.
Cheers...
Con

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Con]
      #103423 - 24/04/08 10:44 PM

Con is absolutely correct!!

"Pockets of popularity are also dependant on what game is hunted."

In the states there is deer hunting in the south you can get by with a 243. In the Northeast folks feel they must have the blast of a 338 Mag for elk/moose/bear et al. The truth is most would be better off shooting out to 250 yds with a heavier pill with 338.06/9.3x57 or a 35 Whelen by far than a 210 gr 338 at 3000 fps.Problem is most folks don't shoot 338 mags well due to the recoil/blast.

So what happens?? A better cartridge for most hunters gets ignored for the flashy "mighty" magnum.

I love my 338's but I won't say this caliber is required to hunt elk/bear/moose et al!! A 250-280 gr bullet at moderate velocities can get the job done just as well!!

--------------------
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Plains99
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103425 - 24/04/08 11:41 PM

Interesting topic. I'm sure the popularity is regional and local game does make a difference. I like big, moderate speed rounds because they do so well on most game. When I made the jump, I went from .300 Weatherby to .375 H&H and now .375 Ruger. I did that because of minimum legal standards in Africa and figured it would work well in the Rockies for occasional elk hunts and someday some bear hunting. I went by a lot of big bore stuff to .375 because I wanted a rifle that would do both and when we are talking about a rifle that doesn't get that much daily use, I wanted it to be a flexible as possible. I wonder how popular the .35 Whelen is in Alaska?

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Plains99]
      #103446 - 25/04/08 01:52 AM

Enthusiast's guns is right! Mike and Con have that nailed, as does Steve.
: The very best of the .35's, is a postion shared by the .35 Whelen Improved and the .35 Brown Whelen. I thought my .358 Norma was pretty special stuff, till I met a man in Squamish B.C. with a .35 Brown Whelen. His ballistics matched mine in factory ballistics - didn't hurt is brass and showed as good longevity as mine did. His standard M700 in the Brn. Whelen, build in the mid 70's was outstanding, but did kick hard too. Running a 250gr. Speer at 2,800fps takes it's toll. I know guys think that bullet is too soft, and it might be - for some game. On moose, it is nothing short of specatular when used by a good shot.
: I was feeling kinda short-handed, with the big belted mag., being matched by the '06 case, so I re-barreled the M602 BRNO to .375H&H with an unfired M602 barrel.
: The standard case is all that one needs as has been shown, but a bit more is always welcome.
: Locally, I have 3 friends with brand new .338 Feds. What a great little ctg. that too, will do it all. 2 of them have hunted almost exclusively with Marlin 45/70's, while the first to buy a Tika in the new Fed round, now owns and shoots many of my older wildcats. He thought the new Fed round would be a good one for his daughter, but I know Keith will do most of it's shooting.
: The best thing about rounds bsed on the .308 and .30/06, is once fired range pickup. Both of those .30 cals are popular around here too, and when the ERT squad counter-snipers are practising, I get all the Fed match brass I can use.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #103450 - 25/04/08 02:12 AM

A very interesting comparison can be made between a heavily-loaded .30-06 with 220 grain bullets and the .35 Whelen, 9.3x62, .375 Whelen, etc.

The current Hornady 220 grain .30's are a bit weak and fragile, but the old, sadly now-discontinued Remington Core-Lokt 220's held up amazingly well in tests I did with them some years ago, producing very deep penetration and perfect mushrooms with high weight retention in the test media. Performance about duplicated the 300 grain Hornady in the .375 H&H. Truth is, the high sectional density of the 220 .30, when combined with a good bullet makes for a round beaten very little by any of these others, which is not to denigrate them, but rather to say that all of them are excellent cartridges when suitable bullets are used.

I've never tried them, but I bet the heavy .30-cal Woodleighs would make a great option for a heavy .30.

Part of the reason I think the .35 never got out off the block running hard was that when trditional construction bullets were shot head-to-head, there was little or no difference in performance between commonly available .35 bullets and the 220 .30-06. I suspect use of .35 Rem bullets may have earned it a jaded rep when they were used on big stuff.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103453 - 25/04/08 03:13 AM

A quality 220 gr 30.06 bullet to the kill zone will certainly kill anything other larger cartridges will but a 280 fr Swift Aframe in a 35 Whelen should have more smash with a larger diameter and decent penetration with a SD over .300.

I maybe picking nits and dead is dead but--

Methinks I would want the Whelen for frontal area smack and penetration.Its only flies would be if it couldn't be pushed fast enough and approx. 2400 fps for 280 gr should work fine !!!

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pinotguy
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103468 - 25/04/08 06:17 AM

hoppdoc,

Very interesting idea using the 280-gr. A-Frame in the Whelen. I like the sound of that a lot. I'd always thought that specific bullet would be better served in the bigger .35's - i.e. Norma and STA, but if you can safely get 2400 FPS at the muzzle in the Whelen, I'm not sure if there's a better combo for big game in NA.

I like using "heavy-for-caliber" bullets so this is something I'd like to try. FWIW, Double Tap offers a 35 Whelen load that uses the 310-gr. Woodleigh - softs and solids.

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AzGuy
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103482 - 25/04/08 10:06 AM

Quote:

Good question.

I don't know.....

It is a GREAT round, and really deserves more attention, but for some reason most fellows seem to find it as enticing as Hillary in a G-string.



9,3:

Please refrain from creating such visual references..... I lost a good mouthfull of fine wiskey upon reading your desription.......very accurate, but most disturbing

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: AzGuy]
      #103489 - 25/04/08 12:10 PM

Quote:

9,3:

Please refrain from creating such visual references..... I lost a good mouthfull of fine wiskey upon reading your desription.......very accurate, but most disturbing



Sorry 'bout that.

It took half a bottle just to conjure the image up in the first place...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Landy
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103493 - 25/04/08 12:48 PM

I might stop drinking,given that result!

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