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Westley375
.300 member

Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 147
Loc: Montana USA

470 NE R15 and Foam Filler?
#103151 - 22/04/08 11:00 AM

Noticed when I load 85gr of R15 there is about 1/3 airspace left in the case. One Kynoch foam plug filler seems to fill this space perfectly touching the bullet itself. Is this OK to use this foam? Lately foam filler seems to have bad voodoo connected with it !!!!

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DoubleD
.400 member

Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: Westley375]
#103168 - 22/04/08 12:46 PM

Foam fillers have bad juju when they are not used correctly or their worthiness is reported on by those who have no idea what they are talking about. I suggest you ask Kynoch how to properly use the plugs...let us know what the say.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: Westley375]
#103216 - 22/04/08 11:06 PM

I am using Kynochs foam filler with very good results--same caliber and same powder you described..not the same grains--but each gun is different..have also used other pillow stuffer and it works well also..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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k80
.333 member

Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: Ripp]
#103276 - 23/04/08 11:07 AM

I dont get it. The company that
makes the powder does not recomend
it. Why would you risk your prized
rifle,your eyes,your life. I just
dont get it.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: k80]
#103288 - 23/04/08 12:39 PM

To my knowledge there is nothing inherently dangerous with using the foam --however, being the good old USA--of course a powder company won't suggest it...it is an law suite waiting to happen..IMHO..
\if something does go ary..
Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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DoubleD
.400 member

Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: k80]
#103290 - 23/04/08 01:30 PM

Quote:

I dont get it. The company that
makes the powder does not recomend
it. Why would you risk your prized
rifle,your eyes,your life. I just
dont get it.

The Powder Company does not recommend fillers because they have no control over how the fillers are used.

Powder companies do recommend the use of fillers. Have you ever looked at shotgun loading data. The big warning they have is do not substitute components. Thats the problem you can't substitute components.

Ask Kynoch how to use theire foam plugs.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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k80
.333 member

Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: DoubleD]
#103391 - 24/04/08 12:31 PM

The RL 15 is not recomended
for 470. Filler or not.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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starwars
.275 member

Reged: 03/04/08
Posts: 58
Loc: California

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: k80]
#103397 - 24/04/08 01:15 PM

Just my opinion but if your this unsure about powders and filler and loading for a big bore double rifle. -Hand loading for big bores should be left to very experienced folks only.

--------------------
Richard

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NE450No2
.375 member

Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: starwars]
#103404 - 24/04/08 01:50 PM

k80

I must respectively disagree.

RL 15, with a filler, is one of the best loads for any of the big bore doubles.

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Bramble
.375 member

Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: NE450No2]
#103422 - 24/04/08 10:35 PM

Allient publish 2 loads for the 470 NE.

One RL19 one RL22

Both achieve the standard regulation velocity.

Why would one wish to use a powder that they do not recommend, that also requires a filler medium and add more variables to the equation.

I can see nothing to be gained, except a very small change in recoil due to the lesser mass of ejxector and slightly lower (pennies cost) and potentially everything to be lost.

I am sure that if they thought RL15 and half a pillow stuffed on top was a good idea they would have said so.

Regards

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farshot
.300 member

Reged: 25/01/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Alberta Canada

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: Bramble]
#103452 - 25/04/08 03:01 AM

what do they suggest for RL 19 and 22 with the 500 gr bullet?

I cant seem to find anything on their loads

iv been using rl 15 with Kynoch wad to no problems

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Bramble
.375 member

Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: farshot]
#103475 - 25/04/08 07:58 AM

This is the link

http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/newCalibers/470_Nitro_Express.htm

Regards

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CapeGunner
.224 member

Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 19
Loc: New York-Hudson Valley-USA

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: Bramble]
#103476 - 25/04/08 08:42 AM

I've recently purchased a 360BPE. I haven't had a chance to Cerrosafe the chambers yet but I was wondering. Has anyone used Pufflon filler? I found this adv site in Handloader Magazine and was wondering if the stuff was any good. Here is the website:
www.pufflon.com/
I have found several loads for this gun but I was trying to think ahead about the filler if I need it.
Frank

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k80
.333 member

Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: CapeGunner]
#103484 - 25/04/08 10:55 AM

I must respectively disagree.

RL 15, with a filler, is one of the best loads for any of the big bore doubles.

Then why does the manufacturer not recommend it

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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JabaliHunter
.400 member

Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: CapeGunner]
#103512 - 25/04/08 08:16 PM

It gets mixed reviews. I have not tried it but if you use the search page there are a number of threads/posts that that discuss it. Some like it but some say it slugs badly...

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Will
.333 member

Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: Bramble]
#103564 - 26/04/08 09:51 AM

I doubt Alliant would recommend a filler in any event, as they do not make them and have no control over how they would be used.

Going from 85 grs. of RL-15 to 115 grs. of RL -19 or -22 would result in about a 15% increase in recoil, which, to me, is not trivial.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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nopride2
.300 member

Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: JabaliHunter]
#103759 - 28/04/08 10:17 AM

I used 2 foam plugs with 89 gr. of RL15 in my 470.

Dave

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DoubleD
.400 member

Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: nopride2]
#103771 - 28/04/08 03:54 PM

Do not use Pufflon in a bottle necked case. It slugs up as it is extruded out of the larger powder chamber and through the smaller neck. This could raise pressures, but it for sure stretches necks and over works the brass.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Will
.333 member

Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: nopride2]
#103786 - 28/04/08 09:22 PM

I suppose my desire to load my own rounds is to get the bullet (and velocity) I want. I never had much interest in loading/reloading just for the sake of it.

As a new reloader for the big NE cases, I have used one Kynoch foam plug for the 470 NE and RL-15. And I see that I'd better pull some bullets on the 450 #2 cases and insert 2 plugs instead of one, to get rid of the air space under the bullet.

I hope you guys know what the hell you are talking about.

All of a sudden there is this UNWRITTEN rule that there should be no air space. Maybe due to my lack of research and effort on my part, but where is the published information on how to load/reload the big NE cartridges?

If you guys really know what the story is, then I am now safe!

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: Will]
#103790 - 28/04/08 11:06 PM

Ken Owen worked up a load for my W/R double in .470---he has a very good reputation ---his load was RL-15 along with 5 to 6 grains for dacron...said he has been using that load for years..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Bill_Cooley
.300 member

Reged: 14/12/06
Posts: 197
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: Ripp]
#103825 - 29/04/08 01:05 PM

CapeGunner
The thing to watch for when using Pufflon filler is if you don’t compress it sufichantley it can shift and co mingle with your charge. I would be more inclined to use a foam or Dacron filler just be absolutely sure you fill the case completely with some compression.

K80
Ken, the reason RL 15, with a filler, is one of the best loads for any of the big bore doubles is it most closely duplicates the burning rate and pressure curve of Cordite. This helps with getting many of these guns to regulate.
This also puts the pressure peak with in the same area of the barrels. When you use a slow burning powder it moves the peak pressure curve further down the barrels where they are thinner. This combined with older not so great steel can be dangerous and expensive.
Just a general statement it is not the use of fillers that is dangerous but the improper use that is.
Bill

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: Bill_Cooley]
#103838 - 29/04/08 06:40 PM

Is it true about the large variations in Federal ammo due to the amount of airspace in the case ?? I can't believe Federal, who I think have a good reputation, would supply inconsistent ammo. I thought they used a big enough primer to get around that ? best, Mike

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Bill_Cooley
.300 member

Reged: 14/12/06
Posts: 197
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#103902 - 30/04/08 01:16 PM

Mike,
I believe they are relying on the hotter primer and it doesn’t seam to be enough. Kynoch has been using a foam filler wad and doesn’t have this problem.
Bill

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k80
.333 member

Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: Bill_Cooley]
#104078 - 02/05/08 11:35 AM

Bill: That is the most thought out
reason I have seen. I still think
if a manufacturer does not recommend
something there is a reason. They do
a tremendous amount of testing to
offer safe ammunition and reloading
products.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States

Re: 470 NE R15 and Foam Filler? [Re: Bill_Cooley]
#104088 - 02/05/08 12:45 PM

Quote:

Just a general statement it is not the use of fillers that is dangerous but the improper use that is.
Bill

True, but just as true is that it is not swimming in croc-infested Lake Kafakumba that is the problem, but rather, not swimming fast enough that is the problem...

I have shot many loads using a variety of fillers. Those who use them, and especially those who experiement with new loads as I have frequently done, must understand the risks involved and not cry about the results of a try gone bad if it does.

For myself, for some reason, I HATE weighing tufts of Dacron, and that is yet another reason I gave up on that type of filler. I'd rather look for a filler-less load than weigh pinches of the white fluff...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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