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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98656 - 08/03/08 03:20 AM

I might add:

The cost of wolf management promises to be just one bug bear OF wolf management. Under a state management plan, the cost needs to be covered by sale of tags. The state is well aware that a balance must established between the cost of wolf tags, the number shot and the likelihood any given hunter will have of killing one. All of these factors impact each other.

For example, the cost of a tag could be set so high that hunters would not purchase it unless they had a very good chance of killing a wolf. This would presuppose very high numbers of wolves and a concommittant significant reduction in elk numbers from where they are now. And it must be remembered that elk hunting is the driving force in out-of-state hunting license sales. A significant reduction in elk hunting opportunity will spell disaster for the state game department.

It is anticipated that wolves will learn very quickly to be wary of hunters, and in our timbered environment, that means a high level of difficulty in killing one by normal hunting methods. Anyone who hunts coyotes in the timber or tries to protect livestock from them or from feral dogs knows how incredibly difficult just getting a shot can be.

Another option is to make wolf tags so cheap everyone buys one along with his Sportsman's Package, or as a spare tag for those who only buy the basic hunting, elk and/or deer tag. In this scenario it is believed that by selling a large number of cheap tags, the law of large numbers might take effect and enough hunters might just happen to bump into a wolf that the numbers could be kept to the desired level {30 breeding pairs ~ c.100 wolves in Idaho}. This method may work. Or, too many may be shot and the threat of relisting yet again be dangled over the state.

No matter how you slice it, the introduction of wolves to Idaho has added an element of complication to the cost and management of game and hunting opportunity that will present very large difficulties to the state and less opportunity for the hunters of this state. In my opinion, the management of wolves in the environment of our state requires disproportionate measures and cost for the benefit received.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99011 - 12/03/08 08:29 AM

WHY NOT USE TRIP WIRE AND CLAYMORE MINES YEA YOU MIGHT GET A COUPLE IF INNOCENT NETS AND PEOPLE BUT MIGHT TAKE OUT THE WHOLE PACK AND IF YOU MOUNT IT ELEVATED IT WILL BE MORE POTENT.LETS SEE ANY ANIMAL CAN EAT THIS POISON MEATBALL THEN DYE THEN IS EATEN BY AN EAGLE COON OR WHAT EVER IT WILL ALSO DYE AND KEEP ON CYCLING SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD PLAN TO A STERILE ENVIORMENT.GOOD LUCK.....

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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EricD
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99588 - 19/03/08 07:11 AM

An interesting (and long) article from Finland regarding wolf problems there: http://personal.inet.fi/luonto/mikael.broo/Policy.htm

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9.3x57
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: EricD]
      #99898 - 21/03/08 11:14 PM

Erik:

Thank you very much for posting.

I printed the article and read it yesterday at the office.

It appears the issues are amazingly identical for the Finns as for us. The complete disregard for local interests represented by the European Commission mimics the same by our Federal Government.

I plan to contact this fellow and have already called the head of the Idaho Anti-Wolf Coalition.

In particular I would be very interested to pursue the legal concept of violation of civil rights by the introduction of wolves into the environment. The author and I are on the exact same page; wolves are no different than rats or tuberculosis and their introduction represents a threat to the life, lifestyle and property of citizens where they are introduced.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99910 - 22/03/08 01:08 AM

One of the major stumbling blocks of wolf hunting, is they prefer to hunt at night, preferring moon-lit nights which are also preferred by animals that move around eating at night - ie their food, the ungluates. It's a Disney deal that they are only howling at the moon. In moose camp, we hear then all night, every night, moon or no moon. You only hear the packs howling while they are actually chasing moose. Single wolf or coyote calls are locator calls.
: Since it's illegal to hunt at night, wolves aren't seen often, hense, aren't shot often.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wes350
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Reged: 23/03/08
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #100726 - 29/03/08 10:25 AM

9.3x57,
Quote:


This issue isn't about wolves, it is about the destruction of traditions and philosophies of game management as very successfully implemented by our state Fish and Game Departments. They have been wildly successful in growing elk and deer herds in the West and deer in the East. It is, ultimately, about the destruction of hunting and the rights of property owners just as Dphariss says.




But they have only been successful in this only because the predation of these animals could be controled due to the elimination of the wolf from their habitat. They can control when deer/elk are hunted, because people obey game laws. So they are able to artifically manage/manipulate the population in a way that would have been impossible without the elimination of the wolf from the range.

Now they have to manage the Deer/elk populations this way due to the increased loss of habitat by man. And that's the kicker with the wolf introductions. The habitat is highly restricted now. The range they have been introduced to is no where near what is was even when the wolves were first wiped out.

These deer and elk herds have only so many places they can go to live, so for a wide ranging pedator like the wolf it's like shooting fish in a barrel. They are having such a devastaing effect because they are allowed to grow in numbers out of proportion to thier range due to the 'dense' concentration of prey. (which includes the many forms of livestock)

Quote:


Many so-called environmentalists fall in your camp, the camp that espouses the notion of the "circle of life", ...



Phrases like: "Circle of Life",and "ecosystem" are bunny hugging propaganda. They tell you everything is this co-dependent chain and if one link falls out things can come apart! It's pure B.S. - species of plants, animals, and insects, go extinct every day, and the world hasin't fallen apart yet.

Quote:


Thus, any wolf that steps off Federal ground could be legally shot, poisoned, dynamited, trapped or otherwise culled at the discretion of the property owner. THAT might be a just and culturally sensitive method of managing introduced species. Right now the rights of property owners are ignored and violated at every step of this discussion.



I would say if it's on Your Property it's fair game, (to protect livestock) but that's just me.
The civil rights thing appears worth looking into, anything that takes food out of your childrens mouths needs to be brought under control.

I doubt anything but an open season and allowing night-time hunting would really reduce the wolf population.

Unlike Leopard and lion of Africa - who's gona pay big bucks to shoot a wolf? It's just a wild dog after all. And at least the wild dogs of africa have Lions, Hyenas, and such to compete with. I doubt Bears, mountain lion and wolfs cross paths enough to have a significant impact on each other - but I'm open to being corrected.

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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: DarylS]
      #102713 - 18/04/08 01:36 AM

13 wolves have been killed since delisting 3-28,some by hunters this was in wyoming,as hunters we have sacrificed but look at the results we brought back an animal we decided was not fit for the planet,sorry we dont have that right to decide no matter what we think.now we have a new game animal in the lower 48 i think it is great.now lets see what plans they have with the montana grizzly.i live in a state where we get to hunt an animal that has been delisted and i think it is a great idea.

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #102751 - 18/04/08 11:23 AM

The sacrifise hasn't even begun.

I called Wyoming Game and Fish today. Those wolves were shot outside the "protected" areas of Wyoming. From an estimated 35 in the unprotected area. That area treats wolves as unprotected game and they may be shot there like coyotes.

There is NO hunting season for wolves in Wyoming, and the recent shootings will for sure be addressed in future suits.

Don't get too excited yet.

Wait till at least 28 April {and beyond...}. 60 day "window" to file suit over delisting ends then. Several groups have announced intentions to file suit against the USF&W Service.

The carnival goes on.

According to the wolf recovery director in Idaho, wolves in Idaho killed 10,220 elk and deer {combined total} this year {14 elk/deer per wolf} in a state where much of the elk and deer hunting is by draw only. State plan would reduce those losses to c. 7,000 per year. Not a good trade for the piddly opportunity to shoot a wolf. Maybe a few rich non-residents will get their jollies chasing wolves in Idaho, but the cost is not worth any of it.

Not sure if the current legislative initiative will have any chance of success in Idaho, but I hope so.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #102765 - 18/04/08 01:56 PM

hey wyoming lost me as an elk hunter when special tags hit almost a grand.rather go to africa for the 5 grand or more an elk hunt cost as a nonresident.did you really think right out of the gates it would be open season.not a chance.just like hide and seek there has to be a safe home.add to that the lion kill they need one every three to four days,and the bear killing calves and fawns and the coyotes.thats why they are prey.just another link in the food chain.remember 1/2 full not 1/2 empty.you and i know this will be a slow process your just along for the ride.they almost got away with listing the black bear.they want to stop polar bear hunts due to global warming.african hunting is going to take a hit.at least some of us got a chance to hunt something a few generations they will be saying rember when those men were able to hunt wow what a life that must of been i wonder what it was like

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #102778 - 18/04/08 08:19 PM

Quote:

hey wyoming lost me as an elk hunter when special tags hit almost a grand.


You have the right to spend your money as you see fit. However there is a catch 22, which boils down to use it or lose it!

The reason prices go up is rising demand for those hunts - which indicates a high value placed on the quality of the experience and implies a game species conservation success in providing the resource to satisfy that demand.

If prices fall, it is because demand has fallen. This can either be because the game management policy has not suceeded and numbers have risen excessively and quality has declined, or becasue numbers and quality have declined. Either way, game species conservation is the loser in terms of reduced revenues. There can also be a negative impact on habitat quality. There is also a social impact on declining natural resource value, which for good or bad can only be measured by the willingness of individuals to pay for it.

If revenues from sightseers who want to see wolves are sufficient to balance the decline in sustainable use revenues (hunting), and the environmental quality of the area does not decline then that is fine (although one should also consider the impact on other land users such as farmers). However, we all know that experience in Kenya does not bear this theory out - declining species populations, declining habitat quality and a huge amount of revenue foregone through not allowing sustainale hunting.

We can complain all we want about the cost of hunting and as individuals it can hit us hard. However, in the long run we a winners because rising value and demand is the only pressure that can result in greater hunting opportunity and increasing availability of land for game species. From this perspective, introducing wolves in uncontained areas which creates a conflict with other sustainable resource uses would appear to be bad policy, planning and management.

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bwananelson
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102786 - 18/04/08 10:49 PM

with wyoming the set up the number of tags goes by the resident population of humans not animals.like many western states low resident revenue has to be sugsidised by nonresident pockets.heck put the wolf in the east the deer here breed like rats and have no predators but us.but make it a trade we will export wild boar which breed three times a year heck we dont even need to export they are spreading well on thier own and they can swim too so they will expand out of the south they are heading north and west now.wolf vs 300lb boar that would be a scrap.i do hear alot of people who dont live here tell us what to do but dollars are like votes in a corp. they will have a say when they have a healthy share of the organization.but that is another debate.the days of family hunting in wyoming are slipping away.even with just 1 child and spouse its a 30+ deal does that sound middle class.everyone looking from inside the mirror its the hunter that is the endangered spieces we are on the list.nature has regulated itself for ions when humans try to help one way or another things get sticky dont they.we wanted the wolves out then wanted them back we exterminated the buffalo we altered the everglades to suit us and now we see it was better before.this forum is not about wolves rights its about hunters

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rscott
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Reged: 21/03/08
Posts: 328
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #102794 - 18/04/08 11:41 PM

bwana,
having trouble following alot of your post but seems you've experienced a less than satisfactory wyoming hunt.
nonresidents wanting to hunt elk here should apply for a general license, not a special.
five grand for an african hunt that comes anywhere close to a horseback hunt in the high rockies? doubt it. not sure there's an african hunt anywhere for any price, that rivals a high mountain horseback hunt!
30+ for a hunt with two family members? you must stay at a different teepee than i do!
wolves? i have my opinions on them, but can tell you in my area the big game mortality due to motor vehicle encounters and human encroachment on winter range, mostly trophy homes, concernes me far more than wolves! at least they eat them!

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bwananelson
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: rscott]
      #102799 - 19/04/08 01:32 AM

no i always did well,but thats not my point.my point is we the average hunter are being squeezed out by license prices.up 300% even the general tag left for common folk you only have a 3/10 shot the special is 7/10 who has the better chance.preferance points up 1200%.it will take you 13 years to have a 1:4 chance at a sheep that is 1300$ just to get in the game.history is repeating itself only royalty will be able to hunt.happened once will happen again like i said the average hunter is on the ESL.less youth less oppertunity for the rest.the majority here wont feel it but the majority here have fewer days left afield.look around at sci this year,crowd is getting older.there will be a time when like the mountain man the hunter will only be history.

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #102802 - 19/04/08 02:13 AM

Quote:

there will be a time when like the mountain man the hunter will only be history.



This might very well be true.

Our State has initiated a number of polls to determine what type of hunting experience is desired by the most hunters. Interestingly, the younger hunters seem to want to "get something", with trophy quality taking second or far distant second place. Then there are those like myself who are essentially meat hunters, caring little about trophy quality. I fit in quite well with the youngsters. We have shot some nice horns, but I and my kids have far more fun retelling the tales of the season around a roast cooked up by my good wife than we do around a set of horns.

Others want big racks and care little about shooting an elk, deer, etc unless it has a big set of horns. The State has to try to balance all these conflicting desires.

From what I've read, the largest number of Idaho hunters seem to fall closer to the "meat first, trophy second" goal than the other way around. For those of us in this camp, deer and elk are the primary quarry and are, in effect, seen as a crop; a renewable, sustainable crop we would like to see managed for the highest possible success rate.

Wolf introduction threatens and will impact that. The director himself will not mince words on the subject, but will state clearly that wolves will reduce hunter opportunity. The hope is that the impact won't be too great. IF the State of Idaho gets its way and can manage around the 500 wolf goal, I suspect we could live with it, tho we won't like it. As I've stated above, I want to see the State get control of wolves, but I fear they will not for quite some time due to litigation. I sincerely hope I am totally wrong on this score.

rscott: Wolf impact does indeed seem to vary quite a bit area to area, with some units here experiencing serious predation and others not so much. Our State plan is quite a bit different than Wyoming's. We have no "predator" area but rather , the State intends to establish quotas for wolf shooting, the seasons to be ended when the quotas are reached. That is, assuming the State ever gets control enough to implement a season.

Interestingly to me, the one main defence the State has in court will be the success of wolf recovery itself. Where the enviro's hoped to lock up vast areas of the West during a long and difficult wolf recovery period, what has happened instead is that the things have bred like flies and it is getting harder and harder for the wolf lovers to say wolves are threatened in any way. In a weird way I guess it can almost be said that wolves are the wolf lover's worst enemy...

Human population growth always impacts game animals, but it doesn't necessarily and always impact to the negative. For example, various types of timber management have strongly benefited game numbers greatly in our State, as have various farming practices. A small reminder of this fact is found about 60 yards from my house as I type this; many piles of fresh elk dung. This time of year my hayfields feed 100-200 deer and 25-75 elk or so.

If they would only stick around during elk season!

I got a picture of the rascals this morning, over in my pine plantation. Here they are...



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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: 9.3x57]
      #102820 - 19/04/08 03:28 AM

you are truely blesssed a sight like this,elk the smell of pine ,mountains to please the eye.you truely lack for little for god has gifted you with a chance all of us only could dream of savor every minute there are no do overs.

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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rscott
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Reged: 21/03/08
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: bwananelson]
      #102821 - 19/04/08 03:37 AM

bwana,
last time i checked i think it was around 17 years for residents to draw a sheep tag so seems you've got a leg up!

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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
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Re: Imported wolves causing havoc in Idaho [Re: rscott]
      #102843 - 19/04/08 05:54 AM

no its 13 i check the stats yearly depends on the area also but remember i said at 13 its a 1:4 so yours is right also.i agree 13-17 years.took only 5 years for moose,and all i lack is the sheep thats the only one i really want not the goat,already got a buffalo.my boy has 9 moose points and i have 6.but for us poor folks we have no other option but the draw,what does a sheep hunt go for in canada 18+,at least it is not like other states where winners can sell thier tag to the highest bidder.but 9 when they legalize that wolf hunt take me along i'll trade an alligator for a wolf.i've seen a 200lb boar snatched from the bank by one of those big lizards.i've taken over a hundred now my biggest 13 1/2 feet and i think i can break the state record been chasing one for 2 years a t rex in size.here again only 4000 tags and 1.5 million gators

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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