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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
front or rear trigger
      #102206 - 11/04/08 05:53 PM

Hi all, a question. When I have fired a .375 H&H double rifle I normally fire the front trigger first then the rear. However, I notice in a couple of books offering advice, including Lou Hallamore in his book "In the Salt" which seems to me to be full of sound advice, that he advises on the big bores, presumably .450 and up to pull the rear trigger first to avoud accidentally doubling. He does go on to say that this observation will make his fello pros groan but I am interested in your thoughts out there. In a few weeks my .470 double will be arriving and I don't fancy getting both barrels at the same time. Is there a good way to "practice" ? I have fired a double .375 numerous times but a .470 only 4 or 5. Recoil was stout but not nasty in an 11lb rifle. Help please, best, Mike

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #102220 - 11/04/08 08:46 PM

Mike,

My advice is to fire the front trigger first, just as is normal. Changing your routine is a mistake. All your moves must be subconscious and without thought.

The key is to place your finger on the trigger up to the first knuckle. You are not shooting a match bolt rifle. Forget what you have learned about just placing the tip of your finger on the trigger. If you just place the tip of your finger on the front trigger, your finger may slip off during recoil and come back to tap the rear. Kinda like playing harp strings!

If this should happen, it's not the end of the world. I have doubled my .500 NE and lived to tell about it.

Practice is what you want. Practice a lot. The more you shoot the rifle, the more familiar it becomes.

Good luck,

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: front or rear trigger [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #102250 - 12/04/08 01:05 AM

Do whatever you want. I preferred pulling the rear trigger first. Just one less thing to go wrong.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: CptCurl]
      #102251 - 12/04/08 01:09 AM

i also learned i doubled the 470 pushed me back 3-4 steps but did dot kill me or damage my merkel.till yo get the hang of it put a live round in and a round with just a primer lets you know you f----- up but wont hurt you or your baby.he is right forget the bolt way learn the double use that last joint on that index finger.both did print a nice group though but i dont want to do that to many times again

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: bwananelson]
      #102256 - 12/04/08 02:07 AM

I fire the rear trigger first. It's just as easy to learn to fire the rear first as it is to push your finger further thru the trigger guard. I have no problem in the field firing the rear first.

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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: front or rear trigger [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #102263 - 12/04/08 04:07 AM

Yep - made me groan too!!
The only reason to use the rear trigger first is if you shoot a right handed rifle off your left shoulder, which in a .470 would not be advisable. JMHO

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3487
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: front or rear trigger [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102290 - 12/04/08 11:23 AM

What Curl said!

With respect to bwananelson, I would have a good think about whether you should put a primed case in the 2nd barrel to test whether you 'double' or not. Others have found that with certain action types (non-rebounders, I guess), the firing pin is not pushed back out of the primer by the pressure of firing, and the pin can stick in the primer and lock the action shut. If this happens, you may need to remove the LHS lock and manually withdraw the pin, or if a boxlock, remove the floor-plate and manually re-cock the left tumbler with a screw-driver or similar.

It's easy with an ejector, just put a snap-cap in the left barrel and see if it spits out when you open the gun!


BTW, I'm groaning too! ...but I do use the left barrel for deliberate single shots when I remember, as in a finisher when the quarry is down.


Just a thought: those of us brought up on bird-shooting with SxS shotguns have fired literally tens of thousands of rounds in a lifetime and never doubled once!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by Marrakai (12/04/08 11:35 AM)

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: front or rear trigger [Re: CptCurl]
      #102304 - 12/04/08 02:22 PM

Front trigger first, as you would typically with a double shotgun.

I don't have any problem with just the "tip" of my trigger finger on the front trigger, but use the first joint on the rear since the closer trigger feels more natural with more finger on it.

Try the snap cap in the left barrel to make sure you aren't loosing control of your hand and fingers under recoil. This is the cause of (most) doubling, and it is only correctable error.

I'ma a lefy shooting right actioned rifles and shotguns, and so my trigger finger extends across the rear trigger. If anyone was going to have trouble controlling their hand and so trigger finger sufficiently and causing a double, it would be me becuase of the right/left trigger location. But tens and tens of thousands of rounds through double trigger guns, mostly shotguns, have yet to produce a double.

JPK

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wombat
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Reged: 06/03/04
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Loc: Australia
Re: front or rear trigger [Re: JPK]
      #102306 - 12/04/08 03:24 PM

After doubling twice in a row on my first buf hunt with my 500 double I vowed "never again"I purchased a SXS shotgun,had the triggers functions reversed and went (and still go) clay bird shooting using the rear trigger first.You would be amazed how fast you can move to the front trigger.You can easily dust a big chip in the air from a first barrel hit-asumming a true aim,which is where I usually have the problem.The tension,heat and sweaty hands
that happen (to me at least)when close to dangerous game are never duplicated at the range or wing shooting-hence my rear trigger first procedure

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: front or rear trigger [Re: Will]
      #102308 - 12/04/08 03:58 PM

Quote:

Do whatever you want. I preferred pulling the rear trigger first. Just one less thing to go wrong.



Why would you try and defeat the design of the rifle by shooting rear trigger first?

Wouldn't it be easier to just learn how to shoot correctly?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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450_366
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: mickey]
      #102309 - 12/04/08 05:09 PM

Why not check how the double is regulated, then you would now. If not possible take it apart and see if you could make a difference how the sear is stoned (which one is the one with the largest bite). I bet its not the front trigger.

Anyhow dont think just put the rifle to the shoulder and shoot imediatly when it lands on you and as quick as you are able fire the next barrel.

Thats how you should shoot.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by 450_366 (12/04/08 05:54 PM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: 450_366]
      #102344 - 13/04/08 01:36 AM

Elmer Keith liked the rear trigger first, using the recoil to move his finger to the front trigger, but it's something I could not get used to.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mickey
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: DarylS]
      #102352 - 13/04/08 03:15 AM

Elmer Keith is an interesting read but he is far from a knowledgable authority on Double Rifles.

A Double Rifle is designed to shoot the front trigger first. The front trigger is outboard of the rear to make it easier to locate and the length of pull on a properly fit rifle allows the trigger finger to automatically fall onto the front. A proper technique of placing the first joint on the trigger and a steady pull will not allow for the finger to slip and Double the rear. The Front trigger has a crisper pull and a lighter let off to make an easier first shot.

The rear trigger is inboard of the front trigger to make it harder to hit on a slip caused by poor technique. The rear also has a longer pull and a stiffer let off, needing more pressure. It is also located too far to the rear on a correctly fit rifle to allow for a natural fit. It is located perfectly for a fit on recoil though.

Learning the proper technique is usually the best way to do most things, from fly fishing to shooting

If you want an interesting read on two versions of the same event read Elmer Kieth's story about guiding Prentice Grey through the Parsnip River Country of BC. Then read Grey's book on the hunt where he devoted two whole paragraphs to 'the little horse wrangler from Montana who he almost fired for being such a screw up.'

Both entertaining stories.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: front or rear trigger [Re: mickey]
      #102373 - 13/04/08 10:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Do whatever you want. I preferred pulling the rear trigger first. Just one less thing to go wrong.



Why would you try and defeat the design of the rifle by shooting rear trigger first?

Wouldn't it be easier to just learn how to shoot correctly?



Mickey, Mickey, Mickey ....

I am afraid you double experts are stuck in tradition to the extent as to ignore any practical aspects.

Like I said folks should do what they want, whatever works out for them. With all due respect, pulling the front trigger first being the correct way is just nonsense (sorry). Keith notwithstanding, there have been a bunch of very experienced elephant hunters that pulled the back trigger first.

In a panic it was much more natural for me to pull the front trigger first but was always rear trigger challenged in getting off that second shot. You can call it a mental deficiency on my part; I don't care. Hence, I "trained" myself to pull the rear trigger first and the front trigger second. Big deal.

I about got myself killed once screwing around trying to remember to pull the rear trigger after I had pulled the front trigger. I pull the rear trigger first regardless of tradition or the correctness of that procedure.

On the other hand, the double I am making has a single trigger. Wee wee on those double triggers.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26533
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: Will]
      #102376 - 13/04/08 11:18 AM

Elmer may not have been an authority on doubles. He did, however do a damn site more hunting with one, in Africa, Idaho and Alaska than I ever will and probably more than anyone on this forum has done as well. We do seem to have a lot of experts here, though with more knowlede than he had.
: I merely stated what someone with great experience in hunting and some experience with doubles preferred, not that it was the proper way to do it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: Will]
      #102396 - 13/04/08 09:09 PM

[quoteI "trained" myself to pull the rear trigger first and the front trigger second. Big deal. I about got myself killed once screwing around trying to remember to pull the rear trigger after I had pulled the front trigger. I pull the rear trigger first regardless of tradition or the correctness of that procedure. On the other hand, the double I am making has a single trigger. Wee wee on those double triggers.


Well if you can train yourself to do it the "wrong way", you can train yourself to do it the "right way" too !
How many olympic athletes make it to the top of their sport by using bad technique? Not many.
On a personal level, I hate single triggers and won't buy a gun with them - but only because I learnt on double triggers and would have to retrain myself. I can do it and have shot many 100 bird flushes at the sporting clays layout with ST - but I am always more successful with the DT guns I was trained on and using them as they were designed.
Its all about training and good technique. Training with bad technique will only get you so far..
JMHO

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Will
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Posts: 303
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102408 - 14/04/08 12:02 AM



I am wanting for someone to tell me why pulling the rear trigger second is the correct way of doing things.

If single triggers are good enough for Westley Richards and was good enough for Jimmy Sutherland it is good enough for me.

I don't see how it matters really to anyone what trigger the hunter pulls first. Do whatever you want.

I know it is tradition but I also fail to see the need for two triggers to begin with. I have yet to hear an actual big game experience where a tourist hunter went about only shooting one barrel because the other trigger mechanism failed.

So much of what is available in the retail, new double market today is accepted as the standard because that is what is available. For example, it seems that many manufacturers, but not all, are making barrels to fit their existing receivers regardless of the caliber. A 450/400 gets made on a 600 NE frame. A 470 NE barrel has the same profile as a 500 NE and the 470 winds up weighing more than the 500! Try to justify that one. I had a rep of one of the European maufacturers, which make exquisite doubles, at the SCI Reno show refuse to even talk to me about a single trigger.

Of course I have my own prejudices such as single triggers, lightweight, ejectors, and all that.

Do whatever you think is best.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Bramble
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102409 - 14/04/08 12:17 AM

I cannot realy subscribe to the right way wrong way thing when dealing with double trigger double gun. Especially shotguns.

There are many situations where one might have cause to fire the barrels in different orders as they are choked differently.

If shooting driven Partridge, then one might wish to fire the choke barrel first and then the cylinder/1/4 barrel as the birds get closer. Crossing Grouse may well be dealt with the opposite way around. Going away birds open first choke second, incomers the other way around. Crossers either way depending on where one wants to kill them.

So IMHO there is no point in training to fire a double only in one order. Better to be entirly familier with the gun and to use it the way that suits best.
Personaly for deliberate fire with a D rifle I prefer to use the rear trigger first as I prefer the trigger angle and find that I have more feel for the break than the straighter front trigger blade.

I think however that in the end it comes down to personal preference and familarity.

Regards

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bouldersmith
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: Bramble]
      #102410 - 14/04/08 12:31 AM

I think the fact that the first gun I owned was a double with 2 triggers given to me on my 12th birthday by my father has helped me. I never understood peoples problems with a 2 trigger gun....seems natural to me and I don't care for the single trigger. That said....its what works for you. I naturally pull the front trigger and slide to the rear after the shot during my remount. The idea of a single trigger on a double, no offense to either Westley or Mr. Sutherland(or you Will), is just....yuck! Too each thier own, but a single trigger is a deal killer for me.....I just couldn't live like that.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: Bramble]
      #102412 - 14/04/08 12:58 AM

Quote:

I cannot realy subscribe to the right way wrong way thing when dealing with double trigger double gun. Especially shotguns.

There are many situations where one might have cause to fire the barrels in different orders as they are choked differently.

If shooting driven Partridge, then one might wish to fire the choke barrel first and then the cylinder/1/4 barrel as the birds get closer. Crossing Grouse may well be dealt with the opposite way around. Going away birds open first choke second, incomers the other way around. Crossers either way depending on where one wants to kill them.

So IMHO there is no point in training to fire a double only in one order. Better to be entirly familier with the gun and to use it the way that suits best.
Personaly for deliberate fire with a D rifle I prefer to use the rear trigger first as I prefer the trigger angle and find that I have more feel for the break than the straighter front trigger blade.

I think however that in the end it comes down to personal preference and familarity.

Regards



Bramble's point is a good one, as he states there are many situations where with a shotgun the rear trigger is the one to pull first. I'll add a few more commonly encountered on our side of the pond, duck and goose shooting over decoys, dove shooting, for examples.

{Off topic aside: On the other hand, I have a second set of barrels, all barrels bored 1/4 choke (about light modified for US readers), for my driven bird pair of guns since I find 1/4 choke to be neither too little nor too much for every situation. And on occasion I've seen a pair where one of the pair has the tight barrel fired by the front trigger.}

I don't have any issue with this with game gun weight 12ga shotguns. But I find that with the recoil of a big bore rifle, the rear trigger is right there for the second shot, but I have to reach forward for the front trigger.

Will, if a single trigger suits you, then you should use a single trigger. The reason that some makers don't want to talk single trigger is that that maker hasn't yet figured out how to make one 100% reliable, imo. And yes, I've seen several malfunctioning single trigger shotguns - but never a rifle since there just aren't all that many. The thin risk of a single trigger failing when that ele is in front of you and hostile is way too thin for concern, imo.

JPK

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: JPK]
      #102418 - 14/04/08 03:53 AM

All good points.
I would only point out the distinction between a deliberate shot when you want to fire the left barrel, such as to take advantage of a tighter choke or deliberate single shots with a DR where you want to avoid wearing out the right barrel and a rapid, instinctive 1-2 at a charging ele
I'll bet that regardless of how much you practice, the chap firing front/rear will be faster than the one firing rear/front.
You can't beat evolution - your finger moves faster pulled towards you than pushed away.
At the end of the day, to each his own though - better two triggers than one!! just kidding

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Will
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Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: front or rear trigger [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102420 - 14/04/08 04:41 AM

I know this all for fun, but some are getting desparate to justify this trigger thing!

Just to stir it up, I don't much care for the third bite thing either, as when reloading I just see it as another hinderance, just getting in the way.

And if you fire the rear trigger first, the left barrel is faster to reload than the right fo a right handed shooter. How about that for splitting hairs?

And just to make matters worse, the double I'm getting built has a selective trigger. There goes the "wearing out the right barrel first argument" and "selecting which barrel, soft or solid to shoot" argument.

Bring it on!

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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zimhunter
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: Will]
      #102423 - 14/04/08 05:46 AM

Hang in there Will you DO have support. I will say that the subject of Double Rifles is one of the few areas where logic does not prevail. I'll bet all these proponents of the CORRECT way of shooting doubles hold their fork in the one hand only and never change hands when cutting. That should really stir things.

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: front or rear trigger [Re: zimhunter]
      #102424 - 14/04/08 06:05 AM

Well if one wants only one trigger there are semiauto rifles that people use for hunting, at least thats is what i have heard. And you get more rounds than a double also, not forgetting you are away from the trouble to reregulate when changing ammo.

To bad they are not allowed in most african countrys.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Will
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Re: front or rear trigger [Re: 450_366]
      #102427 - 14/04/08 07:05 AM

Here we go.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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