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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
What IS this?
      #102091 - 10/04/08 06:17 AM

Below is a photo sent in by a friend of a rifle he is looking at up in the NE. He asked that I look at the photo and pay special attention to the rather interesing line of, well you tell me, on the left side of the water table and extending upwards toward the right hand firing pin. I have my own thoughts but was wondering what you think before I offer my opinion to my friend. (And yes, someone was a bit hamfisted when working on that screw near the same firing pin, and the other marks there are interesting as well. Clearly not JJ's work!) Dave



--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (10/04/08 06:20 AM)

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Bramble
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Re: What IS this? [Re: dnovo]
      #102096 - 10/04/08 07:54 AM

Well the line looks like a weld and the marks around the firing rin bush looks like somebody tried to stake a loose bush with a hollow punch.
What a mess.

Regards

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dnovo
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Re: What IS this? [Re: Bramble]
      #102101 - 10/04/08 09:07 AM

And would any decent gunsmith tell someone, 'nice gun. Looks good to me.' Sorry, trick question. Let's see what others chime in with. I agree with you on the weld (and how did it crack there? That's another question I am not sure about.) My first reaction was that the marks around the bushing may be someone who overloaded a round, substantially, and this is a rim mark. But that makes no sense to me in retrospect as I doubt if the rim would have been that large and would not blow back symmetrically. However, I don't claim that much expertise, if at all, on forensic gunsmithing, so I will wait to see what other answers come up. But I wouldn't be real quick to go to the wallet for this one. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (10/04/08 09:09 AM)

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bradhe
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Re: What IS this? [Re: dnovo]
      #102102 - 10/04/08 09:36 AM

Interesting. Hard to tell if that is a weld mark from a picture. It seems like a strange place for a crack to propagate. Is there any other distortion in the frame? Could the other marks be as the result of moisture flowing down a barrel and causing corrosion? Given how a rifle normally sits vertically in a rack you might expect more at the top, but maybe not.

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JPK
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Re: What IS this? [Re: dnovo]
      #102103 - 10/04/08 09:46 AM

Dnovo,

I like to freinds with rifles too. (Smiley here but don't know how to do it.)

Like you, I claim no expertise in forensic rifle examination. My thoughts are, in order of them "coming to me:"

1.) The bushed pins are sunk way to far into the breech. Re-done? Problem with the originals? Why? Crappy original work?

2.) Overload that made the case head mark on the right side of the standing breech? Immeadiately followed by - No, brass is way softer than steel. Followed by - but a too large chamber may allow flame errosion over time, and its the right barrel, ussually fired more often. This would indicate a low pressure round or load since the brass doesn't expand to seal the chamber and a way to generous chamber. And lots of firing!

3.) On the crack or weld or scratch, just don't know. But if it is a weld, then 1.) a really good certified welder will know if its a weld, 2.) measuring the flats on both sides, looking for a difference, might show that the right side is larger than the left and be evidence of a welded crack. A good weld cannot be made with flush surfaces, btw, so a gap, which will make that protion of the flats wider than original, or which will have been created by a grinder to make good welding possible will leave evidence. But a good weld can make surfaces flush (after grinding the weld bead down.) Checking for a bead under the crack would be wise. I believe that that portion of the action should allow access to the bottom of the crack, if any, to feel if the crack or weld went all the way through.

Thia is a sidelock and probably an expensive rifle - if it were OK. I would pass on principal because at best the description is a problem.

Of course I'm shooting in the dark.

JPK

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ArnoldB
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Re: What IS this? [Re: JPK]
      #102104 - 10/04/08 09:56 AM

That's someone taking the discs out with a tool that doesn't fit and f$%$%d it up and slipped leaving the mark on the face of the action (the line that goes down). The round mark around the disc on the left is from the brace he used. Discs go in at an angle hence it is more marked at the bottom.
The slots on the discs are majorly f%$%$d up.
That is no weld , imo anyways.

Wouldn't be easy to rectify that.
Shady craftsmanship!

Edited by ArnoldB (10/04/08 09:59 AM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: What IS this? [Re: ArnoldB]
      #102108 - 10/04/08 11:04 AM

I would agree-


So sad--

Nice gun that someone really messed up, a total screw up.

What a pity to see!!

Another reason I keep my finely honed smith skills(absolutely none)in check and have those more skilled than me do any metalwork needed!! If there's a way to put it in wrong or backwards I'll do it

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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BigFiveJack
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Re: What IS this? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #102114 - 10/04/08 05:27 PM

I'll do basic cleaning of my rifle and the rest is left

to men who have solid reputations in DR work!

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: What IS this? [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #102119 - 10/04/08 06:23 PM

I knew that California Rigby work was bad, but not that bad!!

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Re: What IS this? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102121 - 10/04/08 07:23 PM

Looks almost as someone left a cartridge in the chamber and put it away. Seen cartridges that had leaked oxidic gases from the powder and coroded the brass. If so it would be seen at the extractor as well and it could be that the rim only rests at the action on the lower part thats why it looks that way. Or perhaps a galvanic oxidation from some fancy solvent left on the cartridge/chamberbrush.
The "crack" could be some line/flaw in the metal that got visible after filing then soldered and flattened.

Anyway a picture on the breech would be nice.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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4seventy
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Re: What IS this? [Re: dnovo]
      #102122 - 10/04/08 07:30 PM

It's hard to tell much without actually examining the rifle, but that ring on the right breech face (left side of screen) looks like it could be flame cutting to me.
Cordite was very good at burning away metal from breechfaces and from chambers if a case rupture occurred.

That mark running down onto the water table could be from the same thing, ie hot gas under high pressure trying to cut a path to freedom.

Maybe someone has fired early cordite ammo which has suffered a case head failure in this rifle.
I'd be wanting to examine the rear end of the right chamber for any evidence of burn.
If the marks are burns in the steel, it is at the least a cosmetic flaw, but could also mean other more serious problems could show up as well.
Breechface and chamber burns are not uncommon with old doubles and often do not cause any major dramas, and the rifle can often function normally.

This rifle needs to be closely examined by a capable double rifle gunsmith/maker to determine the true story IMO.

Please let us know of the outcome.

Edited by 4seventy (10/04/08 08:24 PM)

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: What IS this? [Re: 4seventy]
      #102124 - 10/04/08 07:39 PM

If it was marks left by the case head, then surely they would be concentric with the striker discs, rather than offset? Unless the strikers in this rifle don't line up with the centre of the bores...

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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
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Re: What IS this? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102132 - 10/04/08 10:34 PM

Well, it clearly is not the fault of poor original build as this is a mid-1920s Holland & Holland Royal. The mess we see is no doubt a combination of poor care during its life and then hamfisted efforts to clean up the results of neglect. Proof that even the finest of steeds can be ridden too hard and put away wet too often. My friend just passed when he found evidence of some glossed over refinish on the exterior. Too bad, and a poor end to a fine rifle. Thanks to all of you for your online diagnosis of this issue. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: What IS this? [Re: dnovo]
      #102137 - 11/04/08 12:01 AM

A pity to be sure - like taking your Bentley to Kwik-Fit for servicing!

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470evans
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Re: What IS this? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102138 - 11/04/08 12:28 AM

The cordite erosion around the discs don't concern me, as it not very severe. I've seen that on several doubles and believe it to be from ruptured case heads. My Manton 400 has the same erosion.

The welding repair is another story. I was told when I inquired about the gun from a dealer who had had the gun before that the frame had been cracked. That's enough for me to walk away.

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peter
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Re: What IS this? [Re: 470evans]
      #102139 - 11/04/08 12:48 AM

Quote:

I was told when I inquired about the gun from a dealer who had had the gun before that the frame had been cracked. That's enough for me to walk away.



sounds like a good move. sad fate for such a piece of art.

peter

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dnovo
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Re: What IS this? [Re: 470evans]
      #102150 - 11/04/08 03:07 AM

Quote:

The cordite erosion around the discs don't concern me, as it not very severe. I've seen that on several doubles and believe it to be from ruptured case heads. My Manton 400 has the same erosion.

The welding repair is another story. I was told when I inquired about the gun from a dealer who had had the gun before that the frame had been cracked. That's enough for me to walk away.



Seems like this gun has been around like a bad penny! I wouldn't buy it given that either, so I am glad my friend walked away. I wonder if the owner (whomever that is) knows the issues or doesn't care. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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mickey
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Re: What IS this? [Re: dnovo]
      #102152 - 11/04/08 03:29 AM

Just out of curiosity, was it priced accordingly?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bwanakim
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Re: What IS this? [Re: mickey]
      #102154 - 11/04/08 04:24 AM

Is this the .318 H&H at Cabelas? I started a post about this several weeks ago. The engraving looks very similar. A little bird told me it might have a similar problem.

--------------------
bwanakim

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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
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Re: What IS this? [Re: mickey]
      #102159 - 11/04/08 05:40 AM

Quote:

Just out of curiosity, was it priced accordingly?



No, it is priced stupidly. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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DarylS
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Re: What IS this? [Re: dnovo]
      #102184 - 11/04/08 11:32 AM

Quote:




; Appears to me, the recoil plate on the right side set back from an overload. They tried to push the recoil plate out after removing the screw and failed, so attempted to grind a groove around the shield holder and failed to loosen it enough to remove it for repairs. They then put the gun back together and to sell it as-is.
; It appears to me, if that barrel is fired, the primer will set back and lock up the gun.
; Just a guess.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Huvius
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Re: What IS this? [Re: DarylS]
      #102185 - 11/04/08 11:56 AM

Is that actually a weld or is it filled with solder? Either way, the extractor looks to have been across it a few times from the looks of the vertical swipe marks. Not to imply that it has been fired in this state, just opened and closed enough to swipe through the repair.
Now, with this gun discussed, how would this be repaired correctly? Or, is that even possible?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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JPK
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Re: What IS this? [Re: DarylS]
      #102186 - 11/04/08 12:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:




; Appears to me, the recoil plate on the right side set back from an overload. They tried to push the recoil plate out after removing the screw and failed, so attempted to grind a groove around the shield holder and failed to loosen it enough to remove it for repairs. They then put the gun back together and to sell it as-is.
; It appears to me, if that barrel is fired, the primer will set back and lock up the gun.
; Just a guess.



Darrel S,

I'm betting that you are viewing the photos on a CRT monitor.

Last night when I looked and posted from home, viewing a 19" CRT monitor, the illusion of sunken striker disk and very poor fitting had me convinced of trouble with the disks. But then, low and behold, looking at the photos this afternoon while at my office, and so on a 21" flat panel LCD monitor, the disk show flush and well fitted, even if off center some (common!) The dark "shadows" are left over case color or other staining, but the are not real shadows and so not caused by the srtiker disks being sunken below the face of the standing breech.

JPK

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4seventy
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Re: What IS this? [Re: Huvius]
      #102211 - 11/04/08 06:42 PM

Quote:

Is that actually a weld or is it filled with solder?



Hard to say anything for certain witout actually examining the gun, but I don't think it's a weld at all.
Firstly, that is a very strange place for the frame to suffer a stress crack.
Secondly, that is not the way a crack would be welded if it was done properly.
Third, there is no evidence in the photo to suggest that a weld has been done and finished off.
The metal on either side of the "weld" appears to be original, and I doubt that would be the case if there had been a crack which had been repaired by welding.

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Huvius
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Re: What IS this? [Re: 4seventy]
      #102243 - 12/04/08 12:11 AM

I could see that line being a burn mark from escaping gas. Perhaps as stated earlier from a ruptured case.
Interestingly, I was looking at a H&H shotgun the other day and it had a circular groove around each pin with a straight radial groove extending laterally to the outer edge of each face. This was apparently in an effort to direct any gasses from a burst primer or case to the outside. It does not have bushed primers of course. Although the shotgun was presumably built this way, it is suspiciously similar to how this rifle has been eroded. Perhaps this problem had been observed before and the solution was to offer the gases an escape route which replicates the direction it wants to take in the event of a shell base failure.
Just wondering outloud...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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