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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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AzGuy
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Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action?
#101600 - 05/04/08 06:06 AM

Borrowing from "hoppdoc's" post regard "Best 416".....lets expand that a little bit and get away from "Best" and go to most "Reasonable" mid-bore

With all of the .416's (Rigby, Remington, Taylor, Weatherby, Ruger?, etc)and 404 Jeffery, 425 WR, ... am I forgetting some?

Which one is the most "Reasonable" in terms of ballistics, rifles avaiavlable, and perfomrance on game (if any differnce at all)...???

My guess would be that if a "computer" were asked this question, the answer would the 416 Remington.

What is your guess/selection?

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szihn
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: AzGuy]
#101601 - 05/04/08 07:11 AM

My 2 cents worth...........

For a custom rifle made on a Mauser, the 416 Taylor.

For a "factory rifle", under $1500 the 416 Remington.

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Kalunga
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: szihn]
#101606 - 05/04/08 08:11 AM

I am a fan of the .416 Rigby and always will be. It´s not only a classic African cartridge but has the big advantage of a very low pressure and feeds very smooth because it doesn`t has the unneccessary belt. It will handle bullets up to 450 grains which is propably not an option with the Remington round. Just MHO.

Kalunga

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DarylS
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: Kalunga]
#101620 - 05/04/08 10:31 AM

I like Mausers too - always have. I'd opt for the .416 Taylor (belt turned off) by using a .416 Rem reamer and holding it back 3/10"(whatever's needed) when chambering, as well as a standard .458 WM.

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Daryl

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AzGuy
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: szihn]
#101623 - 05/04/08 10:52 AM

szihn,

Question about your 2 cents worth

Quote:

My 2 cents worth...........

For a custom rifle made on a Mauser, the 416 Taylor.

For a "factory rifle", under $1500 the 416 Remington.

Is not the 416 Taylor simply the 458 win. mag necked down and/or the 338 win mag necked up?

If so, why do a "wildcat" that does not match the ballistics of the 416 Rem?

If "I" am going "custom".... then I'd go 404 or 416 Rigby

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Ripp
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: AzGuy]
#101628 - 05/04/08 11:04 AM

There is actually an article in the same magazine Hoppdoc mentioned in his post where Boddington suggested the 404 as the best in relation to ME, felt recoil, etc..

Having said that--I am and have always been a huge .416 Remington fan--custom or otherwise..I realize they all have their advantages, but really don't see were you can go wrong wit that caliber..have several..including the expensive custom..and yes, it is a .416 Remington..

Another side note, while at SCI this year, visited several prominent custom gun makers...two in particular had custom african guns at their booth..both were in the .416 caliber..as well..while talking with them..I was told the 416 Rem caliber is one of the most popular requested..

Ripp

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Schamankungulo
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: Ripp]
#101637 - 05/04/08 11:45 AM

Well the Taylor I had matches the 416 Remington , actually , the Remington hadnt been 'invented' then ..

The 404 wud be my choice tho' , since we're saying "midbore" ..

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DGR375
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: Schamankungulo]
#101643 - 05/04/08 12:14 PM

404 Jeffery.

I've just put in my CZ550 in 375H&H to my favourite gunsmith, and am having it rebarrelled to 404 Jeffery. I had a look at all the calibres already mentioned by you all, and gradually discounted them one by one.

The Taylor and Hoffman in 416 were discounted due to no factory ammunition available, although the Hoffman had some appeal;

The 416 Remington was discounted due to higher chamber pressures than others;

The 416 Rigby, although a lovely low pressure, fine performing calibre, was a bit "brisk" in the recoil department, certainly sharper than the 458WM, and so was rejected.

That left the 404 Jeffery, which could be easily made from my CZ and should be reasonably pleasant to shoot, given all reports. Norma makes ammunition, and components are readily available. Plus, it has a fine reputation.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: DGR375]
#101649 - 05/04/08 01:19 PM

Best for what??

For all round shooting on all continents for all game I think the 416 Rigby is without peer--

Lower pressure satisfactory ballistics.Excellent killing bullet characteristics-

Disadvantages-large action size,length,and weight-

Best for daily prolonged carry and game effectiveness?? Anything the 404 can do the 416 Rem can do better and the 416 Rem can be made lighter and more compact than a Rigby-

Best shootability??
I'll take the 404 if I am going to bang away with lotsa ammo for extended sessions.Lightweight 416's can bite.At least mine does.

Overall the 416 Rem unless doing Safari in the African 4+ heat --

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Huvius
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: hoppdoc]
#101652 - 05/04/08 01:43 PM

I agree with much that has been said here.
However, I think that with the criteria set forth, the 458WM is probably the "most reasonable" choice based on availability and flexibility in loading.
As far as rifles available, and most managable in the recoil department, the 458 is the choice.
When it comes to class and capability, the 416 Rigby is the obvious choice for me. It does it all.

The game? Dead is dead, and it wont care if it is a 458, 416, 425, or 404 that did him in. All have proven themselves to be up to the task, so what does it matter? We all have prefernces for a cartridge from Rigby, Westley, or Jeffery, but in the real world, there is no appreciable difference.

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AzGuy
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: Huvius]
#101655 - 05/04/08 02:20 PM

Huvius,

One small problem....I agree with most everything you said, however,

Quote:

I agree with much that has been said here.
However, I think that with the criteria set forth, the 458WM is probably the "most reasonable" choice based on availability and flexibility in loading.....

The "criteria" was "Best cal greater than (>) than 40 cal and less than (<) 45 cal"... the 458 does NOT meet that criteria!! It is a wonderful cartridge but not a "mid-bore" and not one of the "choices" for the sake of this discussion.

So now what is your choice?

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Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

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dnovo
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: AzGuy]
#101672 - 05/04/08 07:58 PM

The various 416 iterations are the best, IMHO, but within the group, the choice is not that simple. I have the most experience with the 416 Remington and the 416 Rigby, the latter in both bolt and DR configuration. The ballistics are all about equal in 'real world' terms, with the Remington cleary offering the best wack on the receiving end balanced on the Newton's law penalty you need to absorb with your shoulder. The 416 Rigby has the classic cartridge factor won by a landslide vote, but more Newton's law penalty but not unbearable. The other end, the 416 Weatherby and the Dakota clone is just too much on the shoulder for whatever, and again very little, real world benefit on the other end. I vote for these two, the Rigby winning on the emotional side of me. Dave

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: dnovo]
#101682 - 05/04/08 09:36 PM

Has anyone tried a .400 Pondoro ?

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DGR375
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: JabaliHunter]
#101687 - 05/04/08 10:03 PM

The new .400 Tembo would be interesting to hear about, as well.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: DGR375]
#101688 - 05/04/08 10:13 PM

Sorry -thats the one I meant! Hard to keep up with all the new offerings

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Huvius
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: AzGuy]
#101699 - 06/04/08 12:07 AM

OOPS! Got carried away there...was still in an opening day buzz cloud.
416 Rigby for me then.

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DarylS
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: AzGuy]
#101700 - 06/04/08 12:10 AM

AZguy- the .416 Taylor is a good choice due to it's ballistics, easy of making brass, easy loading - ie: great performance with minimal ampunt of powder/recoil.
: Most factory .416 Rigby's probably run about 2,400fps or a bit less with factory ammo, with 400gr. bullets. The .416 Taylor runs exactly the same velocities & with sane, safe pressures in African heat. It worked perfectly even before better powders were developed. That makes it an even better choice today.
: Factory ammo - yeah - I shoot a lot of it, but only in rimfires.
: Many guys are all wound up on cavernous ctgs. that develope the lowest pressures possible (originally designed due to cordite and it's volitility in heat) then put the rounds in bolt action rifles that are safe and sane with pressurs over 60,000PSI. They then absorb 50% more recoil than they need to, recoil that takes their eyes off the animal being shot, and think they've got the world by the ball.
: The little 2.5" case will do it all. No need for 3" cases and actions as long as your forearm.
: Of course, that just my opinion.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: DarylS]
#101716 - 06/04/08 01:51 AM

Daryls right.
And the 2.5" case requires only a little gunsmithing to a gew.length Mauser to work perfectly.
So for a given budget, you get more gunsmithing and less in parts if you make a Taylor instead of any other 416 I am aware of. The Taylor is equal to the Rigby of the 1920s ballisticly. So what's wrong with that?
If you want more, going faster is not the answer. Going bugger is........ and I would go to a 50 of some sort if I wanted more the 505 Gibbs or 500 Jeffery.

I have owned several 45s four 458s, a 460 G&A and a 458 Lott. They were all very good, but they all kick harder then my Taylor and in the real world, if I want to get "more" than my Taylor gives me, I want a LOT MORE, so I have now sold all my 45 calibers. Just have no real use for them anymore.
I kept my 416 Taylor and my 375H&H, and I will also keep the 404 Jeffery (not the same one I had all those years ago) just because I like it. It doesn't do anything better then the Taylor, but it's like having your old car from your youth --- or going back in time to an old girlfriend. One who didn't age.

I love the old 404, because it was so good to me in those years.
But the 416 Taylor is the one I recommend above all others.

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Schamankungulo
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: szihn]
#102663 - 17/04/08 11:48 AM

My first Taylor did 2400 in the late 70's before all the great selection of powders we have now , seems 70-72 of IMR 4320 was my majic number

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DarylS
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: Schamankungulo]
#103253 - 23/04/08 02:51 AM

Quote:

My first Taylor did 2400 in the late 70's before all the great selection of powders we have now , seems 70-72 of IMR 4320 was my majic number

; One of the earliest owners of a .416 used 3031 for the same 2,400fps speeds & used it in Africa without trouble, while most other guns didn't like such fast powders. Whooter's .416 Taylor in Africa, along with several others including Ken Waters factory chambered Ruger made over 2,400fps with 400's using normal powders, usually 4320. Today, Varget is in the same ball park for burn rates and is not effected nearly as much in the heat nor cold for that matter.
; I've often wondered what shooting hot rounds (in temperature) did for regulation of double rifles in Africa. Afterall, these guns were regulated in relatively cold climates, then packed up shipped South and then expected to maintain zeros with very much escalated pressures and velocities in Africa and India. What pressure and velocity does a .416 Rigby produce in Africa when the ammo and gun is 120F?

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: DarylS]
#103306 - 23/04/08 08:25 PM

The Taylor certainly has alot going for it, but my preference would be for the .425 Express.

The .400H&H sounds very promising, but my understanding is that its still a .375 length case. Is it .416 or .410 ? If it is .410 that may raise the prospects of new bullets and weights for the .450/.400 which could be an interesting side effect. The long case sounds nice for low pressure, but other than that not much benefit over the Express/Taylor.

Any thoughts on these anyone?

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WyoJoe
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: AzGuy]
#103341 - 24/04/08 04:20 AM

Quote:

My guess would be that if a "computer" were asked this question, the answer would the 416 Remington.

I am with you on this one. I have a P-17 action just waiting to be turned into a .416 Remington.

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Schamankungulo
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: WyoJoe]
#103570 - 26/04/08 11:45 AM

Seeing as how the computer aint no smarter than the idjit who programs it , reckon it would depend on the programmer ..

As far as "finding" loaded ammunition , you are probably correct with the Remington .. For whatever reason it ( The Remington ) has never caught on with me ..

I will always have a soft spot for the Taylor , as mine was one of the first ones built ..

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GSP7
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: Schamankungulo]
#103574 - 26/04/08 12:50 PM

How bout a 416AR. A RUM case necked and shortened. No belt, fits in a standard length mauser

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chuck375
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Re: Best >40 cal & <45 cal cartridge for a bolt action? [Re: GSP7]
#103583 - 26/04/08 02:40 PM

470 Capstick, recoil no worse than a 416 Rigby, hits a lot harder.

Chuck

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