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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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WCF
.275 member


Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
gunsmithing lathe/mill
      #101596 - 05/04/08 05:37 AM

Anyone had any experience with the 3-n-1 combo machine at

www.shopmaster.com

its made in China, looks interesting given what it may be good for.

thanks in advance

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: WCF]
      #101608 - 05/04/08 08:23 AM

That link just goes to a search engine not a product.

However

IMO I would not consider a Chineese lathe or milling machine. The quality is shit and you are wasting your money. Combo machines are neither fish or fowl so also stay clear.

Look for good used machinery. So many shops have closed that it is easily out there.

If it is for gunsmithing, do not buy a lathe with less than 48" between centers.
In your region look for "south bend" It must have power cross slide and a thread cutting gear box or change gears.

Buy a universal head milling machine. ie swing head between horizontal and vertical. Do not buy one without power X and Y axis feed. You will be working with some pre hardened steels and neither you or I can control feed well enough not to ruin a lot of tooling.

Some of this chink stuff looks cheep new, but you will ruin so many tools and jobs because of the poor quality that anything you save initially will just break your heart and wallet.


Good luck with whatever you get.

Regards

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WCF
.275 member


Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: Bramble]
      #101642 - 05/04/08 12:07 PM

Bramble, thanks for the insight and advice. I will be doing gunsmithing. I have a trade scool nearby perhaps I'll start my search there. The Southbend tools are waht I have been looking for. Since I have always farmed out my work to someone else this is a topic that I have little knowledge of. Thanks again for your time.

respectfully
mkd

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: WCF]
      #101650 - 05/04/08 01:19 PM

The many Chinese lathes and milling machines may seem tempting, especially at the prices they are asking for new machines. Don't make the mistake of buying one based on what you think they are capable of. I bought my Tree CNC mill from Honeywell for less than a new chinese manual mill. Good deals are out there just keep looking. Even a 20yr. old CNC mill or lathe from a quality maker is amazingly capable.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
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Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: Huvius]
      #101735 - 06/04/08 04:10 AM

With the greatest of respect to the previous poster.

IMHO I would not go for CNC unless you plan to do lots of repeat production work. The programming can take far longer than one off custom jobs requires. On lathes it often requires carbide tooling to stop tip wear and inaccuracy, unless lazer monitering/ measuring is fitted and then you are talking large bucks. Most lower end CNC sizes from a given tip position and not actual cut dimensions. So you can get quite a difference if cutting hard steels (4140 , 416 etc)and HSS cutting tools.

Insted get a machine with Digital read outs (DRO) Once edge or centre is located, a push of the zero button makes life very pleasent.

I forgot to mention in the first post, always make sure the machine has pumped lube/cooling. Again high precision work is very difficult without.

Regards

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Huvius
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Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: Bramble]
      #101772 - 06/04/08 12:43 PM

My mill can be run as a regular DRO with the hand control.
Similar to this one: http://www.aremfg.biz/Equipment/Tree_Journeyman_325_L.jpg
See the wheel control top right - easy to use and super accurate.
I don't think a CNC with tool changers is at all neccesary - way overboard for single piece smithing jobs. Bramble is right about the programming, but for simple stuff, it isn't that bad. Plus, it is fun to stand back and watch your brainchild program come to life right on the bed.
Also, I don't know any machinist - pro or amateur - who didn't wish they had just popped for a cnc to begin with.
By the way, mine cost $4200,bought four years ago, but is a few years older than the one above. Its a Journeyman 310.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
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Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: Huvius]
      #101798 - 06/04/08 05:58 PM

Interesting stuff. I am NOT a machinist & have no such skills. How ever I have been wondering about setting up barrel re-boring / rifling. What is required to do this? I have corresponded with a few barrel be-bore guys before. Considering the thousands of old barrels available here & the fact that a new chrome molly Douglas re-barrel job cost about US$600 and Kreiger would be US$750, I thought it might be worth doing some reboring as a part time business using the right machines.

Just a pipe dream probably.....!

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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Bramble
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Loc: England
Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: Huvius]
      #101820 - 06/04/08 11:01 PM

Oh don't get me wrong Huvis, I could watch capstan head CNC lathes work for hours, I find it utterly absorbing. Those with infinatly variable speed gearboxes going up and down speeds feed coolent flows etc, tools changing automaticaly, make me quite stiff

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WCF
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Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: Bramble]
      #101821 - 06/04/08 11:06 PM

Thanks to all for the iput. Between a lathe an a milling machine which would you consider the one that should first be purchased. I'm leaning towards the mill and continue to farm out barrel work until funds permit a purchase. Also the shop I have unfortunately has wood flooring and I'm told that is a definite no for heavy tooling. I have pondered pouring isolated concrete slabs where I intend the machines to be. Any thoughts on this.

thanks

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: Bramble]
      #101822 - 06/04/08 11:24 PM

Quote:

Oh don't get me wrong Huvis, I could watch capstan head CNC lathes work for hours, I find it utterly absorbing. Those with infinatly variable speed gearboxes going up and down speeds feed coolent flows etc, tools changing automaticaly, make me quite stiff



So true...
One of the best trade shows to go to if you have the chance is the automated machinery show. Haas have their big macines going full speed making all sorts of interesting shapes - gang tooled bar-fed lathes spitting out parts like a vending machine! OOOOOH!!

As for the floor, definitely concrete - preferably a foot thick min.
A friend of mine had a lathe delivered to his home and the weight of the lathe and the forklift made his driveway crack like it was ice. Quite an interesting look really - looks like he drives a Sherman tank to work.

--------------------
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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: Huvius]
      #101834 - 07/04/08 01:04 AM

WCF

Buy the lathe first.

You will get far more use out of it and it will do lite weight milling jobs as well with a tool post mounted milling vise ( Brownells stoch one for a couple hundered dollars)and some collets in the headstock.

You will not need a mill realy unless you are building lumps etc. You can get by with a file and flycutters in the lathe.
Soft soldering parts to a parrelell faced piece of scrap block clamped to the face plate will thickness material for you for most jobs very accuratly, you just have to be creative.

As for the footings, cast blocks for the feet to sit on. I would recommend at least 2' cubes. Whatever machine you get, that initial leveling is critical !! as you cannot use a level on the job unless the machine is spot on before you begin. Thus angles and plumbs are a complete lottery.

Regards

Huvis

Have you ever seen metal spinners going at it forming shapes by hand with a lump of wood from a disk going at full tilt. I was in awe !! It was like watching a man juggle razor blades :-)

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: Bramble]
      #101837 - 07/04/08 02:14 AM

Quote:

Have you ever seen metal spinners going at it forming shapes by hand with a lump of wood from a disk going at full tilt. I was in awe !! It was like watching a man juggle razor blades :-)



I did see a demo of "extreme" machine ability with super fast feed rates - red hot pieces of steel slinging in every direction! They did a demo of cutting a threaded reverse cone - hollowed out of course, integral with a pedestal for display. Can't imagine the hours into that program. Even with the doors closed, I just feel like I should keep my distance when they are running like that - scary!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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WCF
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Reged: 06/05/06
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Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: Huvius]
      #101858 - 07/04/08 05:19 AM

OK, the lathe it will be, now the shopping begins. I've made arrangements just today to fix the flooring issue. To all thanks again,,,
mkd

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tarawa
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Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: WCF]
      #102354 - 13/04/08 05:31 AM

I own two lathes and two manual mills I have a chinese and US made version of each. When properly set-up, buth do equally as well. Be careful on purchasing used equipment. Some of the older US made lathes and mills were production machines. Many (but now all) were used until they would no longer hold the tolerances needed for production. Shop around. Many of the older lathes did not have flame hardened ways. My Chinese lathe and mill are real machines, but not as pretty as my good old American machines



Edited by tarawa (13/04/08 05:38 AM)

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WCF
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Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
Re: gunsmithing lathe/mill [Re: tarawa]
      #104375 - 06/05/08 05:29 AM

Had the floor poured last week, 12'X12'and 12" thick reenforced with rebar. The Southbend will be delievered next week. Thanks to all for the advice.

wcf

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