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hoppdoc
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416 Ruger, Best 416 of all??
      #101478 - 04/04/08 06:00 AM

Rifleshooter had an article about the 375 Ruger necked up to 416. Of course J Sundra does this and calls it "his wildcat", the 416 JRS.

Irregardless the water volume of the cartridge to the neck is similar to the 416 Remington so similar ballistics to the 416 should be obtainable--and big surprise(yawn), YES they are.

So now we have a wildcat with a standard cartridge length and 416 ballistics.Am I going to get rid of my 416 Rem--nope,my 416 Rigby--nope!!

Am I going to rush out and buy one if the factory makes this new "wundercartridge"?? NOPE!!

Does it have utility?? Yes if you want to convert a standard length action to a 416 cartridge.

Now I guess we will wait for the 338 Ruger wildcat--Hmmm, the ballistics on that should be similar to the 338 Dakota and 340 Weatherby(yawn again), I can hardly wait!!

How about a 270 Ruger?? Bet that would be a barrel burner!!Think I'll pass on that one too!!

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Ripp
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #101507 - 04/04/08 10:56 AM

Funny you brought this up as Boddington did a article as well I believe in that same issue--in regards to his favorite cartidges..what really amazed me was after all the hype he has done on the Ruger 375 he states he still favors the .375 H&H..

I have to admit I did NOT think the case would have the same volumne..but apparently it does...none the less..the gun used in the article looked pretty cool.

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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chuck375
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: Ripp]
      #101542 - 04/04/08 02:47 PM

True so many 300s, 338s, 375s, 416s, but so few 470s for bolt action rifles ...


Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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hoppdoc
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: chuck375]
      #101547 - 04/04/08 03:24 PM

You have the 470 capstick of course--

BUT!!

I do think Heym did make some 470 NE bolts!! A rimmed cartridge for a bolt! Unusual-- how that would be made to work reliably?

I do have a 303 jungle gun that doesn't impress me and doesn't feed that reliably--

Reconsidering- a 7mm wildcat Ruger would have the capacity of a STW in a standard length action-that means 160 gr @ 3200 fps- interesting indeed!

Edited by hoppdoc (04/04/08 03:28 PM)

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dnovo
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #101562 - 04/04/08 10:26 PM

I have a 470 Capstick, in both a Gary Reeder single shot Beast and a reworked, shorten, 'chopped, cropped and muzzlebrake and restocked' Rem 700 bolt action. Great round. There is also a Hagn 470 NE single shot floating around. Lots of neat stuff if you look. Dave

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chuck375
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: dnovo]
      #101575 - 05/04/08 12:15 AM

Yup I'm planning on converting my 375 H&H to 470 Capstick this coming winter. There's the 470 Mbogo also (a little too much recoil for me as is the 475 A&M). How do you like your 470 Capstick?

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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DarylS
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: chuck375]
      #101579 - 05/04/08 12:38 AM

.416 Taylor with the belt turned off (I hate belts that aren't needed) fits standard action lengths, does 2,400fps with 400gr. & OK in African heat. We didn't need the .461 Ruger, but what the heck- 1/2 the fun in this sport for many of us is changing cases and buying chambering reamers for them - then working up loads.
; Too bad he used such an odd case, not available except in .375Ruger factory ammo. That was a poor choice.
; The .416 Taylor can be made from any 2.5" or longer mag brass.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (06/04/08 12:11 AM)

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allenday
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #101583 - 05/04/08 01:07 AM

This whole new-cartridge game tends to be a farce, and it's much more about mental gymnastics and new rifle and ammo sales than it is about any sort of practical reality.

The 416 Ruger won't do one single thing that the well-established 416 Rem. Mag. and 416 Rigby won't do at least as well, so..........

AD

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dnovo
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: chuck375]
      #101610 - 05/04/08 08:40 AM

I like it a whole lot. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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Schamankungulo
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: dnovo]
      #101638 - 05/04/08 11:51 AM

The old thing of they have to come up with new stuff to sell , but I aint getting rid of one 416 to buy another of similar performance ..

And I'm not one to run out and buy , jus cause it's new ..

Boddington is good , and Sundra gets under my skin some , but they dont impress me with their newest , latest and greatest creations and buyouts to the manufacturers ..

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dnovo
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #101674 - 05/04/08 08:09 PM

Quote:

The old thing of they have to come up with new stuff to sell , but I aint getting rid of one 416 to buy another of similar performance ..

And I'm not one to run out and buy , jus cause it's new ..

Boddington is good , and Sundra gets under my skin some , but they dont impress me with their newest , latest and greatest creations and buyouts to the manufacturers ..



Amen, brother. The guns and ammo business needs some more sales, so we get the latest round of 'newest and greatest and sell your old crap and buy the newer and better.' Newer=Better. Bullshit.

Notice all the "new and improved" cartridges lately? The 375 Ruger is going to make the old, tired 375H&H go away because it is soo much better than that or any other cartridge in that range? Why? Well it will work in a shorter action? Okay, and then . . . ? Ditto for the 416.

The spate of 416s came about as a result of the 416 Rigby ammo getting hard to obtain, and the various wildcats (416 Taylor etc) being eclipsed by the 416 Remington, which then spawned renewed interest in the 416 bullet and then we got the Dakota, the Weatherby, etc. That, of course, brougth back factory loadings of the 416 Rigby, which is now selling very well and the others fading back.

No we bring in the gun shills (pardon me, writers) who make their living writing for magazines that make their money not on subscriptions, but on ads from the companies who need to sell you a new rifle to make a living and have to convince you to sell off that old and lesser-performing Rigby or H&H chambered gun for a new one. How do you do that, develop a 'better' cartridge, which requires a new rifle, and a new group of ads, and that means articles touting the new loads written by those who must say so to keep eating.

Nothing evil or nasty about that, just the facts of the business. The more things change, the more they stay the same. I'm not selling off my Rigbys or my 375 H&H guns to buy this weeks wonder cartridge. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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hoppdoc
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: dnovo]
      #101676 - 05/04/08 08:47 PM

What the gun manufacturors don't realize is that the majority of the guys buying guns who aren't buying 30.06's or 270 or other deer rounds are those who already have MANY RIFLES and don't need the latest wundergun shooting the same bullet at a similar speed out of a similar bolt--we may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but our generation wasn't born yesterday!!

If we look at such guns it is for unique circumstances!!
We already have a gun that shoots the SAME!!!

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Yochanan
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #181058 - 08/05/11 08:13 AM

I have stopped reading the gun magazines pimping all these new "enhanced" cartridges. My next 416 will be a 416 Rigby no matter what Sundra, Boddington or the other gun press gigolos predict and pimp - yawn.

If a cartridge has not been around for more than 50 years, why bother?(mega yawn)

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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fourbore
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: Yochanan]
      #181075 - 08/05/11 12:52 PM

You know this kind of practical talk and classical bent would get you all banned over on the AR forum. Well, that and criticism of muzzle brakes and rebated rims. I expressed this same view on the 375/416 Ruger and you would think I spat on the pope. And GD, here we have 13 posts in a row all saying the same thing.

There is a guy over there who is going to run an experiment to 'prove' the 375 Ruger is BETTER than the 375H&H. Not equall in a short ctg, but significantly better. The great efficiency of the sharper shoulder. When I suggest there might be some feeding advantage to the long tapered 375H&H that offset any marginal efficiency of the new Ruger -- oh my good, all hell broke loose again.

There has also been a few reports of feeding and extraction problems with some of the 375 Rugers. Nothing ever sorted out clearly. I suspect a combination of Superformance loading and new gun bugs by Ruger. One guy claimed he got two lemons in a row! He sounded credible to me, but was clearly not believed by a few of the more outspoken AR members. Maybe just a few lemons.

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portdivers
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: fourbore]
      #181118 - 09/05/11 01:05 AM

I'd rather trust a cartridge that has been around nearly 100 years. If it wasn't a proven performer, why would it take this long to improve it. I own and shoot a 416 Rigby, to be fair I haven't shot a 416 Ruger, but let's face it, we're over the spin.

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Yochanan
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: fourbore]
      #181121 - 09/05/11 02:59 AM

Quote:

You know this kind of practical talk and classical bent would get you all banned over on the AR forum.



Sure, I accomplished that long ago - no longer one of them It's so easy

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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Huvius
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: Yochanan]
      #181122 - 09/05/11 03:39 AM

Funny that Ruger was the company to introduce these cartridges in light of the fact that they were offering reasonably priced magnum length rifles for some time.
I agree that not much has been improved upon over the last 80 years or so.

--------------------
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458Win
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: Huvius]
      #181123 - 09/05/11 04:16 AM

OK, just to stir the pot - and because I actually believe it -

THE .416 RUGER IS THE BEST OF THE .416's.

At least in theory.

The truth is there never have been many 416s and probably never will be and it will be a long time before the Ruger makes any dent in the market.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
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Mike_Bailey
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: 458Win]
      #181125 - 09/05/11 04:31 AM

As some of you have said above there is NOTHING that cannot be done with a .22 LR, a 12 bore shotgun, a .30-06, a .375 H&H (substitute a .416 Rigby if you like) and a big .470 or .500. All of these are nearly or more than 100 years old BUT the writers and advertisers have to keep making money, no one blames them for that, we all have a living to make, just don´t expect me to swallow it all ! best, Mike

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JabaliHunter
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #181126 - 09/05/11 06:21 AM

So much .416 hype, I think I'll stick to a .404 - especially with the new North Fork 435gr and Woodleigh 450gr pills!

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fourbore
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #181127 - 09/05/11 06:52 AM

Quote:

THE .416 RUGER IS THE BEST OF THE .416's.

At least in theory.



I'll take the bait. I think even a highly subjective and biased "BEST" has to be put in context.

First you have to define best, and depending on what is your definition or theory you can contrive a reasonable argument for almost any cartridge. And probably based on that same definition, another could come back with a new design or propose something already out there is better. It never ends and gets pretty pointless after a while. IMHO.

If I want a 40 cal CZ550, I think I could make a good argument the 416 Rigby was better. if another wanted to build one size rifle for all hunting from lowest cost, they might propose the Ruger was better. If I had an M70, I might propose a 404 was best, while Winchester might argue the 416 rem was better and you would want the Ruger.

What counts for you? A 100 years of success in the field? Availability or fit in a certain gun? Brass and bullet availability? Shortest possible OAL? No belt? Sharp shoulder? Good body taper & gentle shoulder for feeding? Burning the least amount of powder to hit a certain magic fps number? Or maximum versatile in what powders will deliver. Does it have to reloadable in some African country that only has access to limited powders? Do you want to be able too use cheap bulk powder? Do you favor low pressure or hi velocity? What velocity is optimum? Large variety of factory loads? Ammo available anywhere in the world?

Define your requirements and make your choice ... Or ... Pick you favorite first and contrive a set of conditions that justify that choice. Either way same game.

I'll generally favor one of the old classics. In .45 there is really none for a magazine rifle. That leaves the Lott as best and most popular in class. By my definition of best.

The somewhat insidious problem with what Ruger has done is they are diluting an already very thin market. You can find 375H&H ammo for reasonable. So far. If we had one good standard 40, you probably could do the same there. As much as I think Winchester screwed up with the 458WM, in the old days there was a fair shot you might find 458 ammo in a well stocked shop and there was some price competition. Today we are lucky if even one company will load ammo for our pet big bore and be prepared to get reamed out if its anyone but Hornady.

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458Win
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: fourbore]
      #181129 - 09/05/11 07:08 AM

I am not trying to convince anyone to change - as the difference on game between any of the 416 is not enough to notice - although I'm sure there are plenty who would love to argue that. I am not considering ammo available either.
But the fact is that the original 416 Rigby was designed for temperature sensitive cordite powder and as such requires an overly large action, and the orginal Rigbys were overly large rifles.
With any of today's powders it is easy to reach original Rigby ballistics with smaller cases and still keep pressures to acceptable levels for use in the tropics, while carrying a slimmer, lighter rifle.
For that reason I claim the Ruger is theoretically the best . The Remington is also good but, while the ability to use a shorter action may seem like nit-picking on the rifle range, when you are under stress it really is noticable. Bell and numerous other notible African PH's have stated so as well.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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fourbore
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: 458Win]
      #181132 - 09/05/11 08:11 AM

458 thats very logical all around. While I know a very light 375H&H can be built. For a truely light 40, I probably look at the 404J. A 416 Rigby could be (and is) made light enough for me, but not for everyone. It is big, really big case. Nothing will change the fact 416Ruger gets is done and has a shorter bolt throw and fits almost any gun. Its shorter than the Remington too. Same length as the Taylor, though, which seems good nuff.

Here is the rub, in my view. If we start to see 416Ruger gain acceptance with more guns more loads offered. And the generally accepted reason is shorter bolt throw, guess what? Some company will find a way to make a 416 shorter and the owners of 416 Rugers end up high and dry like the 416 Rem guys were until recently. And the 416 Rem situation is still pretty crappy.

I am pretty sure there will remain a healthy demand for the Rigby and Jeff based on tradition. My best. The new and improved guys will jump ship right away.

Today all big 40 shooters are up against it with ammo costs. And no hope in sight of any one gaining an edge to change that. It is nice to see those $40(+/-?) green boxes of 375H&H ammo.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #181163 - 09/05/11 09:10 PM

Quote:

As some of you have said above there is NOTHING that cannot be done with a .22 LR, a 12 bore shotgun, a .30-06, a .375 H&H (substitute a .416 Rigby if you like) and a big .470 or .500. All of these are nearly or more than 100 years old BUT the writers and advertisers have to keep making money, no one blames them for that, we all have a living to make, just don´t expect me to swallow it all ! best, Mike



Well said.

Almost none of the new cartridges in the last twenty years do anything that the cartridges invented about a hundred years ago can not do.

And the modern ones ... will less style and sophistication.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DUGABOY1
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Re: 416 Ruger, Best 416 of all?? [Re: fourbore]
      #182212 - 23/05/11 04:39 AM

Quote:

You know this kind of practical talk and classical bent would get you all banned over on the AR forum. Well, that and criticism of muzzle brakes and rebated rims. I expressed this same view on the 375/416 Ruger and you would think I spat on the pope. And GD, here we have 13 posts in a row all saying the same thing.

There is a guy over there who is going to run an experiment to 'prove' the 375 Ruger is BETTER than the 375H&H. Not equall in a short ctg, but significantly better. The great efficiency of the sharper shoulder. When I suggest there might be some feeding advantage to the long tapered 375H&H that offset any marginal efficiency of the new Ruger -- oh my good, all hell broke loose again.

There has also been a few reports of feeding and extraction problems with some of the 375 Rugers. Nothing ever sorted out clearly. I suspect a combination of Superformance loading and new gun bugs by Ruger. One guy claimed he got two lemons in a row! He sounded credible to me, but was clearly not believed by a few of the more outspoken AR members. Maybe just a few lemons.



I know what you mean about the donnibrooks fostered by anything new on the rifle market, but it has no more to do with AR than any other "BIG BORE" forum on any web-site! There will always be those who simply think anything new has to be an improvement, while there will be thos who are prone to the tried and true older cartridges cannot be improved on, or if it can the gain is somehow not worth the trouble.

In my experience the big bore forums are the place where you will find most of these head to head confontations. This is because the big bore forums are where most of the kids think of a 30-06 to be a big bore, and anything bigger is ultra big bore. Pair this with a web-site where the most frequinted forums are double rifles, or the hunting of African game, and you will have two very different opinions about what is a big bore, and what is simply something designed to sell magazines, and/or new rifles. This website being based in OZ, geared to hunting the north end's water buffalo and feral cattle, or one like AR that is mostly in the Africa mood, there will be those with lots of real experience with all types of rifles, and cartridges, but both will have youngsters who only think they know it all, and are so young they take great exception to a different opinion that doesn't agree with theirs.

I don't think you will find a web-site anyplace where this is not the case, including NE and AR! There are simply people on the internet that want nothing more than to find someone to put down, to make their take on a subject look better. Then there are those who actually know what they are talking about but want nothing more than to use that knowledge like a club to batter others over the head instead of teaching. This last example is the one that does the most damage IMO, and this type is on every web-site on the internet, regardless of the subject at hand!


.....................................................

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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