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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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AzGuy
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Reged: 23/03/06
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Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
2 DR's on Safari .....safety?
      #101141 - 02/04/08 02:10 AM

Lets assume that you are lucky enough to be on safari with 2 DR's of your choice. In my case it would be a 9.3x74R and a 450/400 both with QD scopes.

If you want to have both rifles available at all times, then "somebody" has to carry one while you carry the other. Question: do you trust the gun bearer enough to leave the DR he is carrying loaded? Or do you leave it unloaded?

With only one DR and a bolt action backup this is simple, you carry the DR and the gun bearer carries the bolt with an empty chamber and a full magazine. But what to do now that you have 2 DR's?

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Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

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500Nitro
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: AzGuy]
      #101142 - 02/04/08 02:34 AM


"Question: do you trust the gun bearer enough to leave the DR he is carrying loaded? Or do you leave it unloaded?"

Carry it unloaded IMHO.


How long does it take to grab a DR, drop 2 rounds in and fire ?

Not that long to someone who is practiced but the more important question IMHO is will you need to bring the OTHER DR to bear that quickly - I think maybe you should have time to swap guns.

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Bramble
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #101164 - 02/04/08 06:41 AM

Given that both are very capable mediums and neither is a stopper, is there any reason other than you wish to do so, to have both of them with you ?

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Nakihunter
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: Bramble]
      #101179 - 02/04/08 08:41 AM

Bramble, you just stole my thunder! My dream would be a 360 or 400 & a 450 or a 470. I'll keep dreaming as I have not even fired a double!

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AzGuy
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: Bramble]
      #101181 - 02/04/08 08:48 AM

Quote:

Given that both are very capable mediums and neither is a stopper, is there any reason other than you wish to do so, to have both of them with you ?



Bramble,

OK, good point, lets assume one is a 9.3x74R and the other is a 470 NE.... now what do you do?

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

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Bramble
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: AzGuy]
      #101184 - 02/04/08 09:13 AM

In that case I would carry the .470 loaded and let the bearer carry the 9.3 unloaded.

My rational being this, that in either a SHTF situation or a sudden appearence of a fine PG trophy...say Kudu, it will then be at a short enough range for the .470 to do the job. ( I have shot Warthog to Wildebeest with a .450 #2 out to 90 yds)
If a fine trophy is sighted at 150 yds then you would have time to take and load the 9.3 if you were so inclined.

If the simple question is would I let an inexperienced bearer carry a loaded and cocked double, then no.

Regards

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hoppdoc
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: Bramble]
      #101197 - 02/04/08 12:26 PM

2 Doubles? Great!!

What Doubles depends on what/where your hunting.
I would agree that the 2nd Double be carried unloaded as one would have time to load and shot it for longer shots if such opportunities presented themselves.An unloaded QD scoped 375 Double combo'd with a 500NE would be great on a DG Safari.

If Ele were not on the menu and DG and PG was available a 470NE with a scoped 9.3x74R might work well.

For PG only a scoped 450/400 and scoped 8x57JRS might be FUN,FUN,FUN!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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JPK
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #101203 - 02/04/08 01:01 PM

First, I'm with Bramble et al. The big double ought to be a stopper if you're after DG, and it should be open sighted, imo. The second ought to also be DG legal and ought to be QD scoped, with the scope on at all times unless your big double goes tits up.

The light double carried by the tracker should be unloaded, and in all likelyhood your PH will insist on it.

But the tracker can also be carying the ammo and hand you both when the light rifle with a scope is called for. I think carying two calibres of ammo on you is just asking for trouble. Even when carrying both softs and solids for the same rifle, care should be taken not to allow accidental exchange.

If you have time for a rifle switch, you will have time to load, just as with chambering a round in a bolt with an empty chamber but full magazine. And loading the double is a lot quieter to boot.

BTW, I was planning to take my A&S Farmars 375H&H double and my Thys 458wm double this next trip on the 27th, but the A&S isn't ready.

JPK

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Paul
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: JPK]
      #101214 - 02/04/08 06:04 PM

Well I'll eat my solar topee! All my life I thought the gunbearer/tracker carried the big gun loaded 'African carry' ahead of you (because it was the big gun and you didn't want to carry the weight in that heat) and you grabbed it off him as he backed up wtshtf. We live and learn.

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hoppdoc
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: JPK]
      #101227 - 02/04/08 10:28 PM

I think JPK's point about the ammo is very well taken. Get in a stressful situation and grab the WRONG ammo of 2 types on your person and you could have a major ClusterF--- which may get you killed.The two types of ammo in somewhat different places on your person should be solids and softs for the SAME gun!!

Better to have the gunbearer have the 2nd Double with some shells on the rifle sling(your not carrying this one through the brush, its a scoped b/u)and maybe a bandelero with more ammo as well.

Any other thoughts on this?? Better suggestions? Carrying ammo seems like mundane Mickey Mouse stuff but it could cause you to miss game or damage a gun or worse.

Edited by hoppdoc (02/04/08 10:33 PM)

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9.3x57
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: JPK]
      #101243 - 02/04/08 11:48 PM

Quote:

I think carying two calibres of ammo on you is just asking for trouble. Even when carrying both softs and solids for the same rifle, care should be taken not to allow accidental exchange./quote]





Hoppdoc, I cannot EVER imagine carrying ammo on a rifle sling. For an efficient way to ruin a rifle's balance, add a sling. If you really want to screw the pooch, stitch some rounds to the sling.

JPK's advice is totally sound from a "Real Live Human" standpoint. I do not own a double, do not hunt DG and have no plans to go back to Africa anytime soon. I do however hike every day with a rifle and frequently carry two types of ammo on my person {FMJ or cast bullet and soft point} depending on season and while there's no "stress" of a danger sort when I need to switch rounds, sometimes there is a need for speed. Gotta tell you I've fumbled the ball at the cartridge belt a couple times over the years. It is no big deal for me but for those who are legitimately hunting DG it would be. "KISS".

I really enjoy reading JPK's advice on these matters. I've heard it said that income and horse sense do not accompany each other very far Up The Ladder, but in his case he's most definitely packing both.

Of course, this whole discussion would be moot if the gunbearer were carrying a bolt cranker with a magazine instead of a piece of "hinge cranker trash".

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Ripp
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: JPK]
      #101245 - 02/04/08 11:52 PM


Agree with JPK--carry the bigger gun loaded and let the tracker carry the lighter one--if you spot plains game --odds are you can still take it whether it be a 450/400 or a 470...then if something big wants to chew on you --you have a better chance with the bigger caliber...

Interesting point with the ammo--which has been mentioned on my safaries as well as I ALWAYS have 2 guns with me--however in the past they have always been bolts so I can keep them loaded when not used by myself--all I need to do is cycle the action---with 2 doubles--the idea of the tracker keeping the gun and ammo seems like a very good idea..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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peter
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #101246 - 02/04/08 11:53 PM

Quote:


Of course, this whole discussion would be moot if the gunbearer were carrying a bolt cranker with a magazine instead of a piece of "hinge cranker trash".

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!



oooh you saw the american rigby as well .....

best regards

peter

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xausa
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: peter]
      #101297 - 03/04/08 06:24 AM

Hunting thick skinned (rhino, elephant, buffalo) game, I carried my ironsighted .505 (8 3/4 pounds) bolt gun and the gunbearer carried my scoped .458 Winchester Magnum Krieghoff DR unloaded. The rationale was that if I had to shoot in a hurry, it needed to be with the heavy caliber rifle, but if I needed to use the rifle with the scope because or distance, difficulty in seeing the target with iron sights or to make a finishing shot, I would have time to trade guns with the bearer. In a pinch, I could have snatched the claw mounted scope off the .458 DR in an instant and used it with open sights.

I never had any difficulty with arrangement, and would use it again, except I would probably want to carry my .500 NE Krieghoff instead of the .505.

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Anonymous
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: AzGuy]
      #101300 - 03/04/08 06:39 AM

Yes 2 doubles in legal calibres for big game is really needed for a safari. Sometimes a gun goes tits to the wind while in Africa, whether its ejectors, locks sticking, loose stock, in that case another on hand is a pure save. I usually have a scoped bolt gun for long range shots in 375 or 416 rigby as well. So three total is optimum.

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Bramble
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: xausa]
      #101316 - 03/04/08 07:51 AM

An 8 3/4 Lb .505 !!

Hells bells you must be one tough dude Xausa..

Not only would I have the bearer carry it I would have him fire the bloody thing as well

Regards

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peter
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: Bramble]
      #101317 - 03/04/08 08:00 AM

Quote:

An 8 3/4 Lb .505 !!

Hells bells you must be one tough dude Xausa..

Not only would I have the bearer carry it I would have him fire the bloody thing as well

Regards



yeah mark

that might move you around a bit.

peter

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: peter]
      #101379 - 03/04/08 12:53 PM

My opinion. Double rifles were designed to be used on safari, not sitting in gun racks and safes gathering dust. If you WANT to take two, take two and use them.

Most of the blacks carrying my rifles from time to time have been very careful. Always careful actually.

Yes I would take the cartridges out of the rifle you are not carrying for safety reasons. I would carry the bigger bore as well if hunting dangerous game.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NE450No2
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: NitroX]
      #101390 - 03/04/08 01:32 PM

On all 3 of my Safaris I have taken 2 doubles.
A 450 No2 and a scoped Chapuis 9,3x74R. They performed perfectly.

On my last Safari my wife went as well. She took a Blaser R 93 in 308 and a scoped 450/400 3 1/4" double rifle.

I used the 450/400 for the first 15 days as I wanted to shoot an elephant and cape buff with it as well, so I could say, I have taken buff and elephant with all 3 of my doubles.

She used it on a Monster cape buff.

I also took a warthog, zebra, some baboons and a lion with the 400 as well.

IMHO, a scoped medium bore double and a 400 and up double make a perfect pair.

PERFECT IN EVERY WAY.

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ozhunter
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: NE450No2]
      #101405 - 03/04/08 04:31 PM

If the 9.3 was a Kreighoff, I would have it loaded with the second tracker.

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Will
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: ozhunter]
      #101765 - 06/04/08 10:53 AM

It is simple enough. The Bearer carries a Krieghoff, loaded and uncocked.

Though I have a Krieghoff, I'm not that crazy about the safety, but it is the best for the second gun. Though not traditional I can grab that second double if needed a lot faster than trying to load an empty rifle. And in a hurry, the Krieghoff safety is oporated without any second thought.

Though this my offend the traditionalists, there is hardly any argument conceivable against it.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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hoppdoc
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: Will]
      #101813 - 06/04/08 09:39 PM

I will play the Devils Advocate--
The question is do you trust your African gunbearer with a Kreighoff firearm he can activate in a blink if carried wrong? Then you have aloaded Double swinging about pointing at everything.
I believe in Murphy's law, If there is a possibility for a screw up it will happen--

Pardon my paranoia and I certainly mean no offence to others but methinks another type Double requiring breaking open and loading might be better as a second Double when carried by a gun bearer--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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xausa
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: Bramble]
      #101839 - 07/04/08 02:17 AM

Quote:

An 8 3/4 Lb .505 !!

Hells bells you must be one tough dude Xausa..

Not only would I have the bearer carry it I would have him fire the bloody thing as well

Regards



Actually, I never noticed the recoil when shooting at game: this included three elephant, five Cape buffalo and one rhino. I shot one elephant while standing the top of a termite mound and was not knocked off by the recoil. (Yes, I know, "What was the elephant doing on top of a termite mound?")

I had read Bell's account of shooting elephants from a ladder carried by his gun bearer, but since I had no ladder, I decided on impulse to use the next best thing, which put me on a level with the elephant's head and allowed me to do a behind-the-ear brain shot. He went down instantly, but I put in a second shot just behind the front leg, just to make sure. The elephant was facing away from me and was about 25 yards distant when I fired.

Shooting the same rifle off a rest for zeroing purposes required the use of a "Lead Sled" type device I have been using for about forty years now. It adds about 28 pounds to the weight of the rifle with a comensurate reduction in recoil.

My load was a Kynoch 570 grain bullet in front of 90 grains of 4064, which produces 2150 fps in my wildcat cartridge, identical to the ballistics of the .500 NE. I was able to use .510" bullets in my .505 bore with no difficulty. However, I was careful to ascertain that there was enough neck clearance for the larger bullet by sliding a bullet into the neck of a fired case, making sure that it went in freely. The cartridge case is formed from a .460 Weatherby case, shortened to 2.500" so as to allow it to fit nicely in the 1917 Enfield magazine I use with the P-14 Enfield action. The magazine holds three, with one "up the spout."

You can see both rifles at http://www.frappr.com/?a=mygroups&id=3823381, together with one of the tusks from that particular elephant.

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hoppdoc
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: xausa]
      #101863 - 07/04/08 07:46 AM

Xausa--
Great pictures, I'm envious!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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9.3x57
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Re: 2 DR's on Safari .....safety? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #101867 - 07/04/08 09:13 AM

Quote:

Xausa--
Great pictures, I'm envious!!



Add a big +1 to that.

Man, that is primo vintage stuff! Clark's vellies and all!

Xausa...GREAT pic's and what great hunts!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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