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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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kcordell
.275 member


Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Vintage Black Powder Drilling
      #101099 - 01/04/08 03:16 PM

Hey everyone,

I just dug out an old damascus drilling that I have had for some time. Since I have to follow my rules and shoot/use all arms that I own, I have decided that I want to take it to the field and use it :-) . After some research, I found all the components and data to start reloading 16 2 1/2". Before ordering, are there any hints from any of you that have done this before?

I should mention that the damascus barrels have very light pitting but are solid. The gun is solid and locks tight. The rifle is 8x57r but unsure of .323 or .318. It appears to be fluid steel but I need to research that one later.

After reading about shooting BP, and just knowing how corrosive BP is, just really how long do you have to clean before corrosion starts to occur? Can you spend a full day in the field 12 hours and be safe? I know this is a relatively dumb question but relevant to someone that has no experience here and does not want to ruin a decent example of a late 19th century Germanic work of art.

Thanks in advance.

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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Vintage Black Powder Drilling [Re: kcordell]
      #101133 - 02/04/08 01:11 AM

kcordell:
If this is an 8x57 R, it is likely a Nitro proof gun. I would say at least the rifle barrel, but would bet that the smooth bore 16ga tubes are as well. BP, real BP, is not as corrosive as many of the BP substitutes out there now. Hunting all day should be now issue. The moisture must build in the BP residue to begin the rust process. If you wory, bring along a takedown rod with a tight patch. Wet the patch and push it throught the bore at some point of the day. It is a one way bush from breech to muzzle. Don't pull it back through dirty. Then a BP "wondr lube" soaked patch. Make sure a the chambers dry and then go back to hunting. The 8x57R, on a gun of any vintage, will likely be a J-Bore gun. This will beg for the .318 bullet. The .323, though it may fit the chamber, could be dangerous. Have that chamber and bore checked by someone who knows how. Slug the bore with a soft lead slightly oversize ball or bullet. careful of what rod you use to not damage the bore of the rifle barrel.
If you use BP in the shotshells, you should find some loads on the internet or Cowboy action sites. 2.5 dram loads and ounce or less of shot. Daryl here on the Forum has written several pieces on round ball loads for these combo and drilling guns.
I shoot drillings and combos. I do have one the is BP proof only. It is fun to shoot with the proper loads.
I use 777 substitute powder.
Post photos. We would love to see.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26620
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Vintage Black Powder Drilling [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #101170 - 02/04/08 07:11 AM

8x57R was never loaded with black powder, far as I know. It first came out with a 224 or 227gr. .318" bullet (didn't it) loaded with smokeless powder for 2,000fps. That case could not get that velocity with BP, impossible, even it if was loaded as a solid plug of it as with the earliest .303's. It will be a "J" bore, of course, as 88 noted. To do that, would need load the plug before the shoulder of the case was formed, as with the .303.
: BP by itself, if stored below about 35% humidity, will not rust steel. It is the additon of water or moisture that then starts oxidation, ie: barrel worms, ie: rust.
: On the other hand, Pyrodex fouling is corrosive in and by itself. I don't know about the fouling of Triple (777) noted above, but would not trust it. Too - 777 has been know to jump pressures around a bit, but with very light loads, ie: less than 3 drams, it should be OK - I just wouldn't use it myself - nothing but real BP for a BP proofed gun - if it is.
: I don't believe that gun is proofed for BP, but then, I don't have it to examine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Vintage Black Powder Drilling [Re: DarylS]
      #101174 - 02/04/08 07:34 AM

Daryl, as always, makes great points. The 8x57 in any load was a nitro load. The most often found 8X57R is an I / J bore taking the .318 diameter bullet. Cast bullets do well in them at or below 2000 FPS with proper alloy and lube. Many will have bores as large as .321. Don't think this means the .323 is ok. The case neck, after firing in the rifles chamber must easily accept pushing in a bullet of a diameter that will fit with slight finger pressure. I have used .321 bullets in my J bore bolt 1888 rifles because they will fit in the neck with enough room to allow release of the bullet. If not, very dangerous pressures can result. The grove diameters of many J bores run .319 to .321. Even with the oversize groves, the rifles usually will shoot very well. Mine do.
My mention of H777 substitute bp is in the bp rifle caliber. It is a bit more sensitive than the other bp substitutes like pyrodex. Over-compression causes pressure spikes. I fill the case with enough space for a card wad (in this case a .50) a pea size ball of SPG lube and then the bullet with no more than 1/8" compression. This gave good velocity and accuracy.
I have not seen 16ga load data for the 777 powder, and would likely use Real BP, as Daryl indicates.
These are very fun and useful arms. They suite their purpose as well today as 100 years ago.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26620
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Vintage Black Powder Drilling [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #101188 - 02/04/08 10:47 AM

I didn't think the 8x57mm was ever was in BP. Point well taken about the larger bulelrts probably being too large for the chamber's neck diameter. My 9.3 x57 is just that way. It has an oversize groove diameter, a full .370". That largest bullet I can use are the swaged .375" Hornady's down to .367". Normal factory bulelts in 9.3 are .3650" to .366" depending on make (of those I measured).
: I have a 16 bore hammer double Husky w/ 2 1/2" chambers coming in the mail - probably be sent tomorrow. Right tube is straight rifled and the gun has a rear sight. I'm anxiously awaiting it's arrival.
ps- already have a 16 bore ball mould - HA!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kcordell
.275 member


Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Re: Vintage Black Powder Drilling [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #101211 - 02/04/08 02:40 PM

Guys,

I believe the rifle is 8x57JR or .318. I will run a plug and cerrosafe the bore just to check. I am sure the rifle is nitro.

Regarding the Shotgun barrels, they are Damascus for sure. This being the case, wouldnt BP be the only option? I know of others that use low brass modern ammo in their Damascus shotguns but that isnt for me - too dangerous... not worth it. Anyway, I would rather have a gun to shoot BP.

Please correct my assumption on Damascus if incorrect. Also, the barrel has a tiny bit of corrosion. How can you assess the level of safety regarding light pitting inside barrel on Damascus?

PS. These could be dumb questions, but I dont want to chance a slight disaster. :-)

Thanks,

Kcordell

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26620
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Vintage Black Powder Drilling [Re: kcordell]
      #101263 - 03/04/08 01:35 AM

Pitting in Damascus barrels is very bad, due to the method of making the barrels. What looks like a tiny hole on the surface, can open into a pocket inside the weld.
; Just because they are damascus doesn't mean they weren't proofed for nitro. Proof marks should be on the underside of the tubes, or on the water table. I cannot see a reason for a gun to be made for modern shells in the rifle tube but only BP for the shotgun tubes.
: I would still limit myself to BP for the shotgun tubes, due to the age, etc.
: Most people don't realize that whether the modern shotshell has high brass or low, it is loaded to the same pressure - doesn't matter if it's a 7/8oz load or a 1 1/8oz load, it is loaded to the same breech pressure - only the recoil is different. The brass on the shotshell donates little if any strength to the case as it's little more than a thin foil as far as pressure is concerned. It is there for identification purposes only. The strength is literally all in the plastic. If there for safety, the pressures of loaded ammo would be different - they aren't. The reason all fctory ammo is loaded to the same pressure is for proper burning of the powder - absolutely, every time a round is fired. It's ballistics are tightly controlled. You can make excellent ammo, at greatly reduced pressures, though.
: Now, with handloads and the use of slower burning powders you can load to a specific pressure, ie: 8,000LUP instead of 11,000 to 11,500LUP as in all factory ammo. Also, Black Powder will produce perhaps 6,000 to 8,000 LUP pressure for comparrison, with the peak presssure very close to the heavy breeches of the barrels, almost nill at the muzzles. Note that Black Powder flame-out will melt plastic onto the bore, so paper and card wads along with fillers should be used. You can use plastic wads, IF you protect them from the BP flame- an 1/8" or 1/4" card wad will probably suffice - works for me.
: Hope this gives some ideas.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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