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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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DPhillips
.375 member

Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska

A Few Stupid Questions
#10093 - 25/02/04 12:13 PM

Okay, I don't have a book of cartridge dimensions, so I'm asking here.

Is the 333 Jeffery a unique case or is it based on the 404 Jeff? What about the 280 Jeffery?

Same question for the 350 Rigby, is it a unique case or based on the 416 Rigby?

Also, John Taylor makes mention of the 280 Halgar, but I can't find references to this cartridge anywhere else. Anyone know the history behind this round or is case specs?

Dumb questions, but am curious.

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mbogo375
.275 member

Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia

Re: A Few Stupid Questions [Re: DPhillips]
#10106 - 25/02/04 02:46 PM

The 333 Jeffery and 280 Jeffery are based on the shortened 404 Jeffery case.

The 350 Rigby is basically a unique case. It is smaller in head diameter than the 416 Rigby. It can be made from 375 Flanged Magnum brass, but requires extensive modification including removing the rim and cutting a new extractor groove.

Off the top of my head I can't tell you much about the 280 Halger, the Halger line of cartridges was considered pretty hot in their day. The name comes from combining the first part of the names of their two creators, Halbe and Gerlich.

Jim

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska

Re: A Few Stupid Questions [Re: mbogo375]
#10121 - 25/02/04 05:27 PM

Thanks mbogo.

Anymore you can tell me about the Halger line? Year of introduction, length (standard or magnum length), belted, shoulder angle or any other particulars?

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mbogo375
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Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia

Re: A Few Stupid Questions [Re: DPhillips]
#10165 - 26/02/04 06:04 AM

In reply to:

Anymore you can tell me about the Halger line? Year of introduction, length (standard or magnum length), belted, shoulder angle or any other particulars?

The 280 Halger was very similar to (probably based on, or basis for) the 280 Ross. It is a semi-rimmed case of 2.58" and a loaded length of 3.50". It can be formed by simply running 280 Ross brass into a 280 Halger die (but I wonder if the Ross die might work).

It was originally loaded to high for the day chamber pressure, and there were apparently three factory loads. The 180 grain load was "listed" at 3,000 fps, the 143 grain at 3,450 fps. and the 100 grain at 3,800 fps. These figures may have been inflated a bit, as the Ross (which was no shrinking violet in the pressure department itself) only developed 2,550 fps in factory loads for the 180 grain bullet.

It is interesting that you should ask about these particular calibers, as I am presently working with a 333 Jeffery, a 350 Rigby, and a 280 Ross, all in original factory sporters. Any of these would be as useable in present day hunting as they were when introduced. There are newer, faster cartridges in the same categories, but the new rounds do not have the nostalgia value, or really do much better job than these oldies.

Jim

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska

Re: A Few Stupid Questions [Re: mbogo375]
#10170 - 26/02/04 08:13 AM

mbogo,
Even though I use a 338 more often than not, my heart lies in the older late ninteenth and early 20th century chamberings.

I'm currently working with Ralf Martini of Martini-Hagn for a singleshot based on their Hagn action. I've owned a half dozen or so Ruger No.1's, but have always wanted a Hagn. After talking with Ralf in person at the ACGG show and actually handling a few of their rifles, I now know that I must have one.

My initial idea was this would be my mountain rifle, for sheep mostly. I had thought that the 275 H&H Mag would be an ideal fit in one of their medium size actions. A little further study into the cartridges of that era uncovers the original "hot" 7mm, the 280 Ross. While that is under consideration, the 275 H&H does carry a little more "panache" since I have a pre-64 in 300 H&H. I think it would make a nice pairing. This Halger interests me, since Taylor's work is the only time I've seen it in print. I tried referencing this in Cartridges of the World, but it's not listed.

Oh, then there are the wildcats, I had thought of just necking the 300 H&H down to 7mm (not the 7mm STW), or necking down the 333 Jeff. Of course, one could also do something similar with the 318 WR.

I guess I am looking for a case or cartridge that was introduced sometime before 1920. Ballistics are really a secondary concern. I think the 280 Ross, 275 H&H, probably the 280 Jeff, and 280 Halger would all meet or exceed the 7mm Rem Mag. I suppose if the 350 Rigby were necked to 7mm, it would give similar or slightly better velocities than the Rem Mag version while keeping pressures down. I've seen references to the 275 Rigby Magnum, was this the same animal?

Thanks for all your help. You gotta really appreciate these old cartridges.

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mbogo375
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Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia

Re: A Few Stupid Questions [Re: DPhillips]
#10174 - 26/02/04 10:46 AM

Here are a few thoughts in relation to your last post. First, the 350 Rigby and the 333 Jeffery are both almost identical in case capacity to the 338 Win Mag, so depending on the pressure level that you load to it is possible to reach that level of performance ( BUT NOT AT ORIGINAL PRESSURE LEVELS ). Unfortunately the available brass is a bit soft for these pressure levels generally. In the case of the 333 good brass can be made from 330 Dakota brass, which I use in my Jeffery.

Second, the Ross case is good for single shot actions due to the small rim for easy extraction. Capacity is almost identical to the 7MM Rem Mag. Good quality brass is available from Buffalo Arms (on extensively modified 348 Win brass), and is much cheaper than Bertram. Bell basic brass is available as well. Whether you call it the 280 Ross or 280 Halger makes little difference, as the cases were so close to identical.

The 280 Jeffery would be an easy reform of 7MM Dakota brass.

As to the 275 Rigby Magnum, there are several possibilities. Rigby loaded their version of the 7x57 and called it the 275 Rigby. They also had a higher velocity loading of this round, which I seem to remember was called 275 Rigby Magnum at times. Additionally they had a 275 No 2 Magnum (7MM Rigby Flanged Magnum), and in the index of COTW they list a 7MM Rigby Magnum as a smaller case than the 275 No2 Magnum.

It is all a matter of how much change is acceptable before you no longer have the original cartridge, but a wildcat. Half the fun is using the original ballistics as well as the original case dimensions. Sounds like you have a great project with the Hagn action. Martini-Hagn does some beautiful work!!!! As to the 280 Ross vs the 275 H&H, either would be a great choice but I like the idea of a non-belted case if I am going to try and get away from the modern rounds. Here is the completely original M1910 280 Ross that I hunted with this season.

Good luck,
Jim

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska

Re: A Few Stupid Questions [Re: mbogo375]
#10182 - 26/02/04 12:02 PM

Oooofff! That is a beauty. Thank you for sharing.

Thanks also for the input on the case capacities, et al.. Definitley something to think about. Do you have any recommended reading regarding the older British ssmall bore chamberings?

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mbogo375
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Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia

Re: A Few Stupid Questions [Re: DPhillips]
#10185 - 26/02/04 12:54 PM

You already know about COTW and Taylor. Another good reference book is "The History And Development Of Small Arms Ammunition-Volume Three" by George Hoeym. This volume covers the British Cartridges, and although there is no extensive coverage of any one caliber he does offer a broad range of calibers, some of which are not listed in the common references. Another good reference guide is "The Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions" by Donnelly. This has dimensions for many factory and wildcat calibers from around the world, plus a few loads for many of them, and the easiest parent cartridge for forming cases for each.

Jim

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: A Few Stupid Questions [Re: mbogo375]
#10191 - 26/02/04 02:05 PM

mbogo375

That is a beautiful rifle.

The 275 Rigby HV was a 7x57 with a 140 grain bullet at 3000fps. That is a dandy load with the new tough bullets available now. A light rifle with low recoil that can get up and step out.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho

Re: A Few Stupid Questions [Re: mickey]
#12693 - 28/03/04 02:50 PM

M'bogo,
My my that is a lustfull rifle, I covet it greatly...I however will have to get by with my 1947 Brno Mod 21 carbine in 7x57...Man, thats a nice rifle you have there. my kinda gun...

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luv2safari
.400 member

Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States

Re: A Few Stupid Questions [Re: mbogo375]
#12715 - 29/03/04 12:23 AM

M'bogo

!

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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MAMBO_NYALA
.224 member

Reged: 12/06/10
Posts: 3
Loc: MESQUITE, TEXAS, USA

Re: A Few Stupid Questions [Re: luv2safari]
#188733 - 28/08/11 11:36 AM

I don't know if anyone is still reading this old post..... but here goes!

I built a .275 No.2 Magnum ( AKA 7 mm Rigby Magnum ) on a Winchester Model 70 action with a magnum bolt face back in 2006. With the use of modern steel and powders I felt safe loading it to a pressure level of approximately 52000 psi. It proved an extremely accurate rifle, and will shoot a 140 gr North Fork bullet at 2900+ fps. I took 12 animals with it ranging from vervet monkey to leopard on a safari in Zimbabwe. It has accounted for numerous deer and pronghorn in the USA. It is now my favorite light rifle for general plains hunting. The best powders in my rifle have been H4350 with the 120 gr Nosler BT & N204 with the 140 gr Barnes MRX.

Marv

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